Mud is pollution

[paulj]

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/6420ap_or_logging_roads_pollution.html

In a case filed against Oregon Dept of Forestry, the
9th Court ruled that mud from logging roads is pollution, and ordered the EPA to write regulations reducing sediment reaching salmon streams.

 

[77blazerchalet]

...said Mark Riskedahl of the Northwest Environmental Defense Center in Portland. "This is not rocket science. There are some very low-cost, low-maintenance steps folks can take to remedy this problem."

Paved logging roads. No problem. Cost of toilet paper might go up a penny or two.

 

[brained]

I used to deal with this a lot in a previous career. Then it was related to the streams itself. We'd put in a temp bridge (retired railroad flat car) or some blocks. Keep the fallers equipment a certain distance from the water and so on.

I'd imagine this'll spawn a new industry of degradable coatings that'll be sprayed on a dirt road to hold it down for a few months.

 

[john101477]

This could be disastrous. I can just imagine waddle lined logging roads.
Paved??? your joking right. that a step the wrong way. there are a heck of a lot more Pollutants in pavement than mud off a dang road. not to mention that paving logging road would do more than jack up the cost of toilet paper a little

Brained has it sorta right but you have to find something that is environmentally correct. many logging roads used to be oiled which worked well but was not environmentally agreeable for obvious reasons.

My vote would be dense straw bails at every crossing for about 150ft each side. Mud on a road is not a big deal except for near water crossings and drainage areas.

 

[paulj]

Paving isn't necessarily the answer.

Different roads will require different solutions. Paving may help with some well used ones, though better attention to drainage may be more important.

Temporary spurs to logging sites may require more of the erosion control you see around urban construction sites (silt fences, etc).

Perhaps most important is proper decomissioning of unused roads. During heavy fall storms, clogged culverts and drainage channels can lead to water logged ground, major washouts, and landslides.

 

[Outback]

This will drive the cost of all lumber sky high not to mention all of the other products. Here we go again with the damned Wacko environmentalists! Nothing good will come of this. Theve been logging for over a hundred years with NO effect on any of the fish and here we are...... Its polluting the streams and hurting the fish. Hogwash!

 

[timh]

I work in the lumber industry. This whole dirt/dust/mud thing has already gotten out of control. There are numerous builders that will fine the contractor if any trace of dirt is tracked onto the street in a developing subdivision. It has gotten to the point that most companies have to have brooms, shovels, and even hoses on the truck to clean up after themselves. I can't speak for the PNW area streams and rivers as I have no first hand experience but I do know the effect that it will have on the building industry.

I think that some measure of control is needed to keep the pollution under control but the extent that we have come to now has gone far beyond reasonable. All of these measures will untimately raise the cost of materials and labor so high that our economy will not be able to sustain it.

 

[crawler#976]

You guys are missing the big point in this.

The issue is likely to bring further litigation on national forests, because so little logging goes on there, and roads originally built for logging are now used for other things, including recreation, said Andy Stahl of the conservation group Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics.

This doesn't just apply to logging. This will effect all roads/trails in the National Forest system used for ingress/egress for any commercial use. Not just commercial timber harvest could be impacted , but potentially mining, commercial firewood, or even the placement and maintinence of communications systems could be effected.

The USDA doesn't have money now to maintain the inventory of roads/trails. All most every side road or trail in the high country of AZ has been and will be used again for timber harvest. If they are forced to make improvements to them, the only option they will have is to remove them from the inventory.

This is a de facto way of forcing closure on public lands. The Anti-Recreational Use/Environmental groups know very well the long term implications this has.

Mark

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Here we go again with the damned Wacko environmentalists!

Uh, sorry? Silting in spawning streams is a well-documented, proven issue in logging areas. For every "whacko" on one side who would close down the roads, there's a "whacko" on the other side who doesn't give a damn about anything but himself and wouldn't mind a bit if salmon went extinct as long as he could keep driving where he wants.

For the rest of us, we analyze the data, identify problems and solutions, and work to reach a consensus on ways to continue producing lumber, continue offering recreational opportunities in National Forests on logging roads paid for by taxes, and continue to have a few fish around that aren't raised in pens and fed kibble.

We've reached a surreal point when groups such as Trout Unlimited and Backcountry Hunters and Anglers are considered "whacko environmentalists."

 

[RR1]

Humans are pollution.

Can I see the data on the waste produced by the Northwest Environmental Defense Center in Portland?

 

[spencyg]

Not going to comment on wacko this or wacko that, but I will say that they attempted to pave logging roads up here about 20 years ago and it was an abysmal failure. The dirt logging roads are always being resurfaced by a fleet of graders and dump trucks. With frost and the excessive loads carried by the trucks, the dirt gets chewed up quickly. Luckily, it can be repaired nearly as quickly with a relatively small amount of effort and resources. Paved roads on the other hand fair far worse in my instances when the frost starts moving things around, and once you've started breaking up the asphalt surface, nothing is really going to fix it besides resurfacing. They paved about 40 miles of road about 3 hours north from me in that 20 year ago time frame, and they have never bother repairing it. Instead the area is known to shread tires, break suspensions, and cause truckers to rupture internal organs if they're not careful. As parts of the road get really really bad (i.e. 2' diameter, 1' deep pot holes), they'll fill it with patch, and that lasts about a day. I have no idea why they don't just rip the road bed out and take it back to dirt.

So I understand the concern with sediment, but paving logging roads isn't the answer.

 

[spencyg]

No idea...it was brought up in the second post on this thread though.

 

[brained]

They won't try to pave it, ridiculously expensive and as mentioned a maintenance nightmare.

What they will use if required is some type of spray on biodegradable binding agent that'll hold the road down for a few months.
It'll require an old beat up water truck that the boss will drive up and down the roads in the contract area while the crew unloads lowboys of equipment.
Compared to the cost of the diesel fuel necessary for the job it'll be a minor expense and an incremental increase in final price of the lumber produced.

 

[T.Low]

Two years ago one of my builder's told me he gave up 34 evenings of his last 2 years to volunteer on an affordable housing task force.

After all that time they were able to lower the cost of an average home by $6500. The next Tuesday the local gov planning offical added $7500 of fees on to the average building cost. And thats just at the local level.

There needs to sensible regulation, not reactionary guidelines that haven't been well thought out. People too often don't realize the drag on the already hurting economy these regs can have.

 

[RR1]

What they will use if required is some type of spray on biodegradable binding agent that'll hold the road down for a few months.

Aren't most (all?) of those agents petroleum based?

Isn't a little "clean mud" better than petrolem run off?