Mudless "mud terrains" for expedition driving?

[SOAZ]

Modern MT tyres are great for normal driving. There's a misconception. It's remarkable how many guys have cold feet before going to MT's because of issues that were a problem with older technology. Go to a good set of modern MT's and you'll love them and wonder what the hoohaa was all about.

I disagree. I may actually end up getting the MT's next round, but I don't like a lot of things about them.
I had the current tread BFG km, and thought they wore poorly, chunked, and were really noisy and full of vibration at any speed.
That being said, you're right. If someone is used to the super swamper type of mud terrain the newer KM or KM2 or other brand MT's are MUCH better.

 

[The Swiss]

I thought I'd comment in case it helps. I wish I was into taking pictures back when I had BFG Muds and AT's. The thing I noticed was that my AT's almost had NO chunks. They held up great.
Problem of course is that they don't come in the magical size.
My BFG Muds, had chunks missing all over. I even had half of entire lugs missing by the time I finally sold them.

I second that. IMHO, the only thing that really speaks for the MT's are the better looks

 

[ashooter]

I'm still at the coin-flipping stage here. Only thing that makes me lean toward the BFG KM over the Cooper S/T is the fact that the BFG seems like it would hold up better against sidewall cuts/punctures driving in the rocks. I can't imagine that the S/T wouldn't be a more pleasant ride for most of the dirt/rock roads and ALL of the pavement I drive.

SOAZ - You seem to be pretty hard on tires... Disregarding the chunking you got on the treads of your S/T's, did you ever feel like your sidewalls were overly vulnerable?


?

 

[maximumrob]

I haven't yet seen a mud terrain that won't chunk in harsh rocks. Of course, if a man is only now considering an off-road tire after running AT's, he isn't likely pushing his truck hard enough to chunk the MT's should he buy them.

There is no comparison, not even close, between any mud terrain and any AT when off road. The exception is dry, tacky terrain where it counts to get rubber on the trail surface instead of edges.

After running a set of MTR's that I loved dearly (I don't do mud), I chose BFG 255-85 MT's. They're clearly a better street tire, in fact, a damn good street tire if you ask me, but I'm careful in the rocks as the sidewalls have a reputation for being weak. Given that, they did survive last weekend at Superlift's park.

Once my truck is trail-only, the MTR's will go back on. My truck will never seen an AT and it's a daily driver.

 

[erin]

As far as the BFG MT's being horrible on the street or highway, I would have to disagree. They are a bit noisy, but not that bad, but they due require regular balacing and rotation, which I think is the key to these wearing properly. As far as sidewall strength and chunking, I haven't really had any issues with either, chunking can be reduced significantly by airing down, and controling wheelspeed in the rocks. Overall, I think they are a good compromise tire, good for the road, but adequately aggresive for most offroad needs.

Just my .02, I will be replacing mine soon with another set.

 

[SOAZ]

I'm still at the coin-flipping stage here. Only thing that makes me lean toward the BFG KM over the Cooper S/T is the fact that the BFG seems like it would hold up better against sidewall cuts/punctures driving in the rocks. I can't imagine that the S/T wouldn't be a more pleasant ride for most of the dirt/rock roads and ALL of the pavement I drive.

SOAZ - You seem to be pretty hard on tires... Disregarding the chunking you got on the treads of your S/T's, did you ever feel like your sidewalls were overly vulnerable?


?

I never felt like it, but I'll be the first say that a feeling doesn't mean much. I do see the sidewalls buldging out when I air down. Partly because the tires tread width is thin and partly because I can "feel" that these tires are softer than my old BFG's I don't air down past 19 psi and generally just to 22 or so.

I think that the decreased air volume also contributes to my fear of airing these down as low. Somehow these feel so cushy and also mushy like I could hit the rim if I hit something at higher speed.
With my stiffer and wider bfg's I could go to 15 pounds with confidence.

I've scratched up my rims pretty good so I guess that indicates that I rub the sidewalls a bit...

Sorry for the vague answer. I just think its hard to tell. My overall feeling:
Bfg's have a stronger carcass and sidewall. May last longer due to harder rubber compound. Just all around rock.
Coopers have a strong enough sidewall "so far" although less then bfg. They are in the magic size, great highway ride, very grippy on rocks.

 

[Redline]

Cooper ST @ 15-PSI

I went 'wheelin this afternoon for a short trip, just a few miles and near home. Had the Cooper STs on the Mall Crawler and dumped them down to 15-psi like I usually do all my 255/85.

SOAZ is correct, the STs are much softer (nice ride and 15-psi is very low for them. 15-psi is great on my Maxxis Bighorns or even BFGs. My car weighs 5,500-lbs.

They did grip well and deformed spectacularly if I had lots of pressure/weight on them. Deformed normally if they weren't being stuffed into something. It wasn't child abuse but it was 'tire abuse'

Edit:

Tires were about 34-psi warm, and dropped to 15-psi warm.
I didn't air them back up until this morning when they read: 14.5, 14, 13.5, and 13 in my garage

 

[Life_in_4Lo]

maybe you should consider some of the more aggressive AT's. I notice there are more of them now- kind of look MTR-ish in aggressiveness except with a lot more siping and closer spaced blocks.

Those Cooper ST's in Redline's pics almost look like BFG TA/KO's and I know ProComp and others have similar tires... I always thought the Cooper SST was a nice tire too. Bajataco.com had a nice review of them

I think the new BFG MT tire is crazy expensive... but the Toyo MT is now too so maybe it's just the prices rising across the board.

MT tires don't compare to AT's in overall performance. MT's do one thing well and compromise on everything else, but that's ok that's what we look for in a tire. i think those aggressive AT's (or less aggressive MT?) are trying to hit a good spot inbetween

 

[ashooter]

Dang Redline, I can tell you right now that if I ever aired those tires down that much on some of these rough "roads", I would shred the sidewalls. The rocks here are often really sharp, jagged, gypsum/calcite/limestone broken up by the bulldozer that scraped the "road" out of the brush.

That said, I'm still undecided.... If I was driving roads like the one pictured in my original post every day, it would be a no-brainer. The catch is the tires have to do double-duty - rough rock roads on one extreme and my wife driving my two little boys on 300 mile highway trips on the other. I've gathered a LOT of info on the net, and it pretty much boils down to all the posts I've read that BFG KM's are "not so bad on the highway", vs. Cooper S/T's are "not so bad off-road".

I just have to decide which extreme I want to favor. I guess if anything, the practical side of me is leaning a little bit toward the S/T, since I figure can deal with the tires' shortcomings off-road (at 5 mph) better than I can deal with their shortcomings on the highway (at 75 mph). However, if the "not so bad on the highway" comments on the BFG KM are only related to noise and not handling, then I'd probably lean toward that tire...

The saga (wishy-washiness) continues.

But then all this research etc is half the fun, right?... at least that's what I tell myself.

 

[Redline]

I agree with you, I love the research and debate

Yep, the rocks were not sharp but I have seen sharp rocks in the past. I remember one sharp arrow shaped rock in Idaho in 1993 that poked a hole in the side of my almost new Michelin A/Ts on a Dodge W350/Cummins. The tires were at full/street pressure at the time and the flatbed had an old (light) cab-over camper on the back. Although my aggressive airing-down does make the sidewalls more vulnerable in some ways, in general I think that tires and sidewalls are generally more vulnerable at higher pressures.

I would comment that while the Cooper STs are "possibly" not as tough as the BFG MT it is certainly a very good off-highway tire. Sure the void is not up to full MT standards, but the tread has much more void and escape routes for wet & goo than a BFG A/T and most other "all-terrain" designs. The ST truly bridges the gap (there are a few other designs that do as well). Having said that, the tread is certainly louder than a more conservative AT.

My BFG MTs are siped, but I have driven on them very little on wet/slippery roads. For my purposes their biggest weakness on-highway is the noise, which I just don't care to listen to all the time if I have another choice. But the tires have many fans and I think if they are well cared for with smooth driving, rotation and balancing, they will perform well. If wet traction is a concern aftermarket siping is an option.

One thing to remember is the narrowness of the Cooper ST compared to other 255/85. I can feel less lateral stability on twisty roads with this tire due to its design. This is not really an issue unless you like to hit the turns hard, and similar to a narrow 235/85R16.

I assume you are ready to buy tires NOW, but if you wanted wait a few months I wonder if the new BFG MT KM2 might offer less noise and a smoother ride? would not be a good choice, possilby quieter and smoother on-highway. We shall see.

Dang Redline, I can tell you right now that if I ever aired those tires down that much on some of these rough "roads", I would shred the sidewalls. The rocks here are often really sharp, jagged, gypsum/calcite/limestone broken up by the bulldozer that scraped the "road" out of the brush.

That said, I'm still undecided.... If I was driving roads like the one pictured in my original post every day, it would be a no-brainer. The catch is the tires have to do double-duty - rough rock roads on one extreme and my wife driving my two little boys on 300 mile highway trips on the other. I've gathered a LOT of info on the net, and it pretty much boils down to all the posts I've read that BFG KM's are "not so bad on the highway", vs. Cooper S/T's are "not so bad off-road".

I just have to decide which extreme I want to favor. I guess if anything, the practical side of me is leaning a little bit toward the S/T, since I figure can deal with the tires' shortcomings off-road (at 5 mph) better than I can deal with their shortcomings on the highway (at 75 mph). However, if the "not so bad on the highway" comments on the BFG KM are only related to noise and not handling, then I'd probably lean toward that tire...

The saga (wishy-washiness) continues.

But then all this research etc is half the fun, right?... at least that's what I tell myself.

 

[ashooter]

....I assume you are ready to buy tires NOW, but if you wanted wait a few months I wonder if the new BFG MT KM2 might offer less noise and a smoother ride? would not be a good choice, possilby quieter and smoother on-highway. We shall see.

I was hoping to line up a buyer for my Revos first, but nobody seems to be interested, so I may try to sell them locally after I get a set of 255's. Just looking at the KM2, it looks like it might be a better alternative... but that would depend on how they adapt the new tread design to the skinny sizes. Part of me wants to hold out for the KM2, and part of me wants to take advantage of the good prices on KM's right now.

The local tire shop that caters to ranchers and the Border Patrol strongly advised against Coopers for this country. I'm not sure if that's because they don't sell Coopers, or if they don't sell Coopers because they don't hold up well.

 

[bigreen505]

What about a General Grabber AT2? No personal experience, but I have heard that they were designed to be super tough. General/Continental has a broken shale testing track.

Maybe PM HenryJ. He outfits trucks for a fire dept. and has a pretty good idea what works and what doesn't. You can search for his posts, but I think he mentioned that MT/R's are continually at the top of his list purely for durability on shale, but he also gets a significant discount on the tires. I don't know if he ran the Cooper ST's, but I vaguely remember the STT failed the longevity test.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

It is amazing those tires bulge so much at 15 psi... Anyway, on those I would run 18-22 personally, every time I have been that low I have killed a tire.. (and of course it sucks ruining tires)... I like the Cooper SSTs quite a bit, I also have two sets of BFG ATs. I am on the former MT bandwagon too but a nice streetable MT is not a bad thing, just the noise and premature wear. I have never had a tire that stuck like glue more than a Goodyear MTR that I loved, despite the chunking. Even with the chunking, the tires still lasted/wore very well. Again I just hated the noise. I noticed no mileage losses either...

 

[Redline]

The General Grabber AT2 is an interesting suggestion. I have recently looked at this tire (in pictures) and like the tread. But, I don't believe it is available in the coveted 255/85R16 size. He would have to run the shorter 265/75R16 or 235/85R16 or the wider 285/75R16. I know he doesn’t want 285s so that leaves only a 32-in tall tire instead of 33.

What about a General Grabber AT2? No personal experience, but I have heard that they were designed to be super tough. General/Continental has a broken shale testing track.

Maybe PM HenryJ. He outfits trucks for a fire dept. and has a pretty good idea what works and what doesn't. You can search for his posts, but I think he mentioned that MT/R's are continually at the top of his list purely for durability on shale, but he also gets a significant discount on the tires. I don't know if he ran the Cooper ST's, but I vaguely remember the STT failed the longevity test.

 

[ashooter]

...I know he doesn’t want 285s so that leaves only a 32-in tall tire instead of 33.

NOPE! You guys have me convinced that 255 is the only way to go! Actually 265's handle better than 285's, but look kinda "funny" on my FJ80. I know most 80's in the world are probably wearing 31-32 inch tires, but it still looks funny to me.

FYI - I don't know how much of this is B.S., but the guy who owns the local tire shop said that the reason he doesn't sell Coopers and does sell BFG's is because he thinks BFG's handle the heat here better than most other tires... and specifically better than Coopers. Typical summer day here is 100-105F. Not as hot as some places, but I wonder if maybe some of the reports about the Coopers (and others) chunking/chipping may have something to do with that -- Soft rubber becoming softer when being hammered by direct sun on a 100+ degree day...?

Anybody...? Buehler...?