it would seem that I'm being made out as the aggressor in this instance, Matt knows my feeling on his grille design. The issue is, this type of "thing" would not and should not be considered part of a typical "overland" build. Overlanding isn't about athletics more over its about using what you've got with a few pleasurable alterations or exceptions. As I said, this grille and thread is best suited for a common jeep wrangler forum and NOT a expedition forum as I really doubt anyone here would purchase this product or has the term "overland" been change as to allow this junk to be include in it's vocabulary. I'm beginning to see a forum with less and less over landing than when I first join.. So here's a novel idea, what if Scherb put this on his jeep to set off those flat fenders.. if he does, he's crazier than I thought..