New Defender Concept

Third, Land Rover sold about 20,000 Defenders last year. They need to find ways to sell more, even if it means updating a 60 year old design.

Why do they need to sell more? What's wrong with current production numbers? What's wrong with staying steady on those numbers? What happened to the idea of stability at a company? After all, the executives get to go home to their estates, and the workers get to go home to their decent homes and do what they do on the weekends. Why change this? UNLESS, somebody got greedy and wants more. People don't know how to be happy with what they have. Always remember that "As fast as you go up on a stock market-like chart for production or company performance, must you come back down in a return to the mean." Markets ALWAYS show this eventually. I have seen very few companies that try to accept that "This is where we're at, we're doing pretty good, so let's keep it where it's at so that we don't suffer 'market saturation' and end up laying off people in a hurry when there is no longer a reason to manufacture at the present rate. Let's manufacture just enough to sell and keep parts and maintenance staff on hand to keep this going."

Market saturation is always the fatal flaw in business models. Always. This means that at the current rate of production, you reach market saturation (say, 90% of the population own a Jeep Wrangler or a Droid phone) very quickly, and because you don't have more people to sell your Jeeps to than what the market can bear for opportunities, production has to fall off in a hurry to minimize over-inventory. So, the faster you reach market saturation, the more disrupting the layoffs/capital disallocation has to be to offset the lost demand and bring things back in balance. The more even you keep production numbers even in a slight incline over the life of a product, the more likely you are to survive market saturation as you transition from "mainly manufacturing, some maintenance" to "some manufacturing, mainly parts-making, and maintenance."

Otherwise, your only alternative is to manufacture products with short lives or different versions of a product that makes it compelling enough for customers to "have to buy" to replace what they already have.

Lots of businesses don't know how to transition from a growth phase to a maintenance phase. These businesses ALWAYS assume that they will be in a growth phase forever, and they run into trouble when they don't successfully make the transition. As a business, what are you going to do when every single developing country becomes a developed country, with the majority of the peoples having what they need? You would no longer enjoy the kind of growth you experienced when your product category did not exist before. Here is where you will be forced to learn what I'm talking about.

Creating new versions of an existing product is very expensive. There's the cost of hiring engineers to come up with a new design and retooling the assembly lines after existing business relationships have been changed/new ones formed. It's very expensive to do this all over again. I love the classic Land Rovers and their history. Because the Land Rovers have mutated into Lunar Rovers designed by the wrong people for the wrong kind of people, I can't ever bring myself to buy one of these given what I already own.

Somewhere, somehow, we took the corner from a time when designs didn't change for a very long time (because it did the job, what did it matter) to where nearly everything goes from nonexistent to market saturation in mere months and back to nothing when no one wants it for a better model. This world has gone absolutely nuts.

Lunar Rovers... Interesting... Jeep Wrangler becomes Jeep Astronaut? Check out the features available on a 2012 model. Toyota Landspeeder? Ford Sprinter becomes Ford Apollo?

Someone needs to stick around to specifically make a vehicle that remains a base model with few features and high durability for heavy-duty/utilitarian/off-road use.
 

overlander

Expedition Leader
I'm betting that Land Rover is about to go through the hard lesson that Jeep went through with CJ-YJ-TJ. TJ is what brought Jeep back to off road prowess. I was a Jeep CJ owner when the YJ was revealed, and there was a lot of same arguments. Land Rover is traveling down the road off course farther however, likely due to much more stringent regulatory constraints than Jeep had at the time. I'm confident that if Land Rover doesn't pull back to root design after market feedback, they will come back later after feedback on their production version.

Pretty sure that the new Defender will not be nearly as radical as this concept though.
 
In what direction did Honda go that made you rethink a CRV?

1) the addition of Vehicle Stability Assist
2) manual transmissions are no longer available
3) spare tire was moved inside (and muddying up the carpeted interior?)
4) trunk space behind the rear seat is even shorter in the 3rd gen than in the 2nd gen (secret is, they were able to expand cargo space by blowing up the interior forward of the seatback of the rear seat to hide the reduction of "usable cargo space" - are you going to ask your passengers to hold your drums for you while riding in the back?)
5) the front seats no longer lay flat in the 2nd Gen as compared to the 1st gen
6) never mind the horrible redesign of the exterior, losing the classic "Let's load it up and go camping" look. It's a straight-up city car with extended capabilities.

The fact that the much more utilitarian Element was discontinued this year made me decide to sever my connection with Honda - they no longer make a vehicle I'm interested in, as good a car they make. This was a stupid mistake, just because they couldn't get the numbers to grow any faster (failing to realize that market saturation was taking place slowly and needed to throttle back manufacturing and tap the throttle up on the parts manufacturing aspect). They should have looked at the Element Owner's Club for the amount of disappointment they were expressing. Just not my thing, now.
 
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reece146

Automotive Artist
The issues with Honda are systemic. They are currently being run by a bean counter instead of an engineer/enthusiast. First time ever. And it shows in the products.

There is a glimmer of hope though... I watched Clarkson's "Powered Up" last night and he had the Mugen CR-Z on the track at Paul Ricard. 1.5 liter supercharged gas engine hybrid. Beating the snot out of it at the track got 30 mpg while driving normally got 50+ mpg. Jeeza is prone to exageration but still, even it if it 20/40 that is awesome for what the car is. I'm assuming Imperial gallons.

Honda needs to get their head back in the game. Time to do a RWD sports sedan and S2000 and NSX replacements. Blown hybrids would work. The rest of the appliance cars they make will follow. I'd like to see them do something like a VW Amarok or Toyota Hilux but I won't hold my breath.
 

I Leak Oil

Expedition Leader
The concept next to the current defender pictures......I see zero lineage in either execution nor the concept of it. If you didn't tell me it was made by Land Rover I would have named half a dozen other manufacturers first. If they go through with it I think they should do themselves a favor and name it something other than Defender. Why embaress themselves....
 

Antichrist

Expedition Leader
Land Rover will likely offer the final vehicle with an 18 or 19 inch rim as standard
:Wow1:
Apparently they think everyone wants to run 36" or larger tires to have a decent amount of rubber between the wheel and the ground.
 
Rumor on the street- Tata's Land Rover Group CEO resigned this past Friday because the polls taken on the Concept DC100 came back at a 96% disapproval rating.

And look at what was said in the blog:

“The heart of the Defender is capability, pure and simple. And yet, design is just as important to a Defender as it is any other Land Rover vehicle. We have no desire to imitate our past. We will design a Defender that is relevant to the 21st Century”

This has been a difficult pill for Rover enthusiasts to swallow but the fact is, a military-spec, hand manufactured vehicle (like current and past models) does not make for sustainable business. Land Rover has pledged not to compromise any of the Defender's capabilities in its redesign, and with advancements in technology, they shouldn't need to. Rover has also stated that the DC100 will remain highly customizable, allowing it to be as rugged or as civil as needed by its owner.

“Civility” has not been a Defender trait in the past, but Land Rover is changing directions. With business hurting, Jaguar Land Rover cannot afford to make a vehicle that isn't profitable. The new Defender may not appeal to the enthusiasts, but the enthusiast market is not what they are after.

-------------

The second paragraph is a bunch of bull and reflects an unwillingness to listen to people. I know of several companies that have chosen to ignore this at their peril. Now, LR has already introduced one compromise, and that is the ability to see out of the thing. That's what I love about my Wrangler - I can see everywhere behind me.

Let's rephrase the last paragraph: Jaguar Land Rover cannot afford to make a vehicle that isn't profitable. It's really saying, "Jaguar Land Rover cannot afford to make a vehicle that doesn't make enough money to offer its executives and workers continuing improvements in their salaries and lifestyles."

If they would quit introducing so many designs over the years and not invest so much in redesigns, retooling, and establishing changes in business relationships that come from this, then the cost of vehicle manufacturing would come back down. I think that companies need to explore this for a while and find out if this is a case of sales dropping not because people don't want these vehicles, but because they have just about reached the limits of market saturation and need to throttle back on complete vehicle manufacturing and shift some of the workers and resources over to parts making and maintenance. If you ramp up as fast as possible to make as many as you can, then when you hit that market limit, you have to ramp down just as fast as you went up. This is always true in markets. But greed has gotten a hold of these people, and look at it now.
 
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To be clear, the reasons sited by Mr Forster were "unavoidable personal circumstances", not explicitly due to the results from this design. I guess everybody can make their own choice to believe that or not.

The stock price is down 41% over all of 2011, but only 3.3% of that has occurred since the announcement of his resignation.

Actually, "unavoidable personal circumstances" could mean just that - "I don't like the direction the company has taken, including going away from its roots of an overland vehicle and no longer encouraging sales staff to look and talk the safari pitch to their customers. I believe LR to be the ideal company for that lifestyle, and now it's no longer the case because of turnover of staff to a generation that doesn't understand what LR really means. Therefore, I resign."

That is exactly what those words would mean to me if a company I worked for were to go in the wrong direction with their products or mission statement.
 
He got very agitated and spouted the same EU legislation bollocks excuses about crumple zones, airbags and so on.

Aside from the differences that has cropped up in the latest staff replacements at LR, Hopefully, the inherent flaws in the EU will take care of heading down that road in short order. They may have had monetary union in the Euro, but they certainly did not have fiscal, language, never mind cultural union in place.

"MERKEL'S C(hristian)D(emocratic)U(nion) VOTES TO ALLOW EXITS FROM EURO AREA" - this is referring to current discussions on what to do for countries unable to comply with the rules for financial operations as a EU member. If that thing falls apart, which looks guaranteed right now, EU regs may be the least of your worries and the survival of Britain may be a more relevant concern than LR survival at this time (I don't know - where's LR at now? Britain? India?).
 

REDrum

Aventurero de la Selva
Late to the party here, but that doesn't change how ugly and useless the new defender concept looks. Weak sauce Rover....
 

Antichrist

Expedition Leader
Land Rover has pledged not to compromise any of the Defender’s capabilities in its redesign, and with advancements in technology, they shouldn’t need to. Rover has also stated that the DC100 will remain highly customizable....
You'll be able to add accent stripes, video cameras, cup holders, SATNAV and a smokin' sound system. See? Just as customizable as the Series and Defenders have always been.
 

Dendy Jarrett

Expedition Portal Admin
Staff member
Wow, and while we get fed this line of bull from Land Rover, I get a call from Chrysler's Jeep Feedback Department today to very politely spend a few minutes on the phone with me to ask why we chose a Jeep, what did we do (lifestyle wise) that influenced our purchase decision! Wow- I have lost count at how many new land rovers I purchased over the years, but not once (as in never) did they ever call me to ask why I purchased one of their trucks! Good on you Jeep- You are listening to your users and it shows.

What I cannot understand for the life of me is why jeep can still have a modern vehicle that if placed beside a 50 year old Jeep- still looks very much the same - and if you place the new Defender next to the old Defender - WHAT?!? And yet they claim that (even though Jeep has done it) no one wants a utilitarian, military designed truck of yesteryear.
PALEEAAZZEE.

Get a grip land rover. And folks wonder why I got so dis-enchanted. (I yield my soap-box).
D
 

Snagger

Explorer
The comment that the design was deliberately excessive and that a developed vehicle would be much more restrained just shows that they have no real idea of what they are doing and are wasting huge amounts of time and money designing vehicles they have no intention of building. They really need to start axing the management.

I still don't understand why they need radical redesigns. I have been told that pedestrian safety is one issue - bollocks: if the Discovery 3 and 4 meet the criteria, so must the current Defender( both have slab fronts of similar height). US restrictions seem to revolve around occupant safety - increase the strength of all the roof pillars and fit airbags to the dash, job done. Noise and vibration issues (as cited by LR)? Simple - assemble them better and add some acoustic blankets to the bulkhead and floors while fiddling with the gear tooth profiles to reduce their noise in all areas of the transmission. Wind noise isn't that bad and never causes complaint, so the vehicle doesn't require a radical design change. None of this is high tech or high cost.

That just leaves the issue of drivers' elbow room. Well, I have that sorted on my 109 already: move the seat 1" inboard and use a 15" steering wheel and 2" shorter steering column so that the driver is moved slightly away from the door and has slightly straighter arms. By using Defender front seats mounted through the inboard bolt holes originally used for the basic seat squab rails and by using a Metro steering wheel, I have a comfortable cab. It cost me £5 for the steering wheel and the seats were second hand too. If I can sort that well known complaint so easily and cheaply, then surely it shouldn't be beyond the wit of all those designers. Oh, but wait - they're all twenty-something graduates infatuated with shiny high tech (the Apple generation), not experienced and practical engineers who think about what their customers need.

Ironically, the interview write up on this forum shows LR's thoughts exactly - the lifestyle poser leisure market for town folk who want to go somewhere just mildly off road for the day, not utility users, expedition use of heavy off roading. Just a pretty and eye catching, expensive looking piece of eye-candy to pose on the beach or the Aspen car parks.
 
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Antichrist

Expedition Leader
they're all twenty-something graduates infatuated with shiny high tech (the Apple generation), not experienced and practical engineers who think about what their customers need.
I think you nailed it. Maybe because I've been thinking the same thing. ;)
Probably people who grew up around Disovery's and Range Rover's, thought it would be cool to own a Defender (or Series) and after buying it realized they aren't interchangeable with the posher Rovers and require a very different personality type to own and drive. Then, instead of realizing it wasn't for them, decided to remake it in to something they wanted, rather than what people who've been driving them for decades want.
 

rover4x4

Adventurer
90% of people in Land Rovers are worried about their bluetoof egos and being able to have their starbucks within reach, **** em.
 
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