New Defender News
- Thread starter blackangie
- Start date
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
Thanks for the kind words! I’m pretty brand agnostic and am a big fan of getting the right tool for the job, but every tool has compromises. Normally we have to compromise on payload or off-road proficiency in this market (As Payload goes up, off-road tends to go down), but with the Defender, those compromises appear to not exist. Instead the compromise appears to be price and reputation for reliability — I stress “reputation” because while Land Rover does have a historical reputation for not being very reliable, my understanding is they’ve made great strides in this area in recent years. And, they know their reputation just as well as we do, and have a LOT riding on the success of this Defender, so maybe they took that to heart in the design.
I’m actually very curious if there is any data on how reliable ‘modern’ rovers are from a “Get you there and get you home” perspective. Most of the data I have seen is based on “overall owner satisfaction” and “average number of service calls”, but I think comparing Land Rover numbers in this area with, say, Jeep numbers in this area is apples and oranges because they sell to very different markets.
I wouldn’t describe my Jeep as flawless — lots of issues with sensors and the transmission/clutch bearings — but it always got us home, and even when electronic gizmos failed the vehicles default “fault” state was still very much driveable. For example, the JK has an oil pressure sensor that controls if the oil is pumped through the galleys at high pressure or low pressure. It helps with emissions, but it fails often. If it failed and stuck to “low pressure” you’d have an engine lubrication starvation issue, but it defaults to ”high pressure” whenever it fails, meaning theoretically the car can be driven forever without it being fixed. But, the Jeep also had a ton of little issues — trim not lining up, phone not pairing properly, noises from the heating system, etc. Since it’s a jeep, I expected those things and lived with them. My understanding is people who spend $150k on a Range Rover may not have that attitude, and it’s more likely that every squeak or rattle could end up being a service call, which I think would get counted against them in most scores for how “reliable” they are. That’s not the case with a lot of jeeps that are fixed with duct tape and enthusiasm, even right out of the showroom, and don’t get counted against their overall ‘reliability score’. I’d be unconcerned about the “reliability” of a new Defender if my washer fluid heater malfunctioned and threw a code at me in the Back of Beyond as long as the vehicle still drove — I’m not doubting the common wisdom of “JLR cars are not reliable”, I just wonder if when one defines the terms a little more closely, what does the reliability data actually look like?
The real question won’t be if things will break — every thing will, eventually, and I actually think the Defender with all it’s tech gizmos and gadgets will really push the whole market forward (which will increase the adoption of these features across brands, which generally increases reliability). The question will be “How often” and “What does the car do when something breaks”. Does it sit down on the trail with an error message and not allow you to move when an airbag sensor goes bad? Or is it designed to reset to a default PSI & ride height, flash a code, but otherwise allow you to carry on? For remote travel, I think it’s the “how is it designed to function when something fails” that matters most on a modern vehicle more than the “Can you fix it with bailing wire and chewing gum“ attitude of yesteryear.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
i watched that video, and then YouTube Auto-played another video of some really nicely built Toyotas on the same trail. The Toyotas all had 35” tires I think, some bigger, and appeared to be driven by capable enthusiasts who put a lot of time and money into their rigs — in other words, I think they were far from “off the lot” Toyota’s in many cases. To see the Defender perform off-road followed by Toyotas on the same trail was very eye opening. The Defender appeared to do as good or better than the much more “built” Toyotas in the tricky bits.
Note - I’m not harping on Toyota, I think they are amazing vehicles and would have a Troopy or a 70-series truck in a heartbeat — I’m only using this comparison as a testament to how capable this new Defender appears to be off road from the factory.
DieselRanger
Well-known member
? That sucks - I hope the dealership is going to give you a little break on that, or at least help you out on some accessories for that ******** up. When I ordered my D5 my sales rep (who's now the sales manager) told me their interface is completely different than what's on the website, and there's no direct connection, there are option combos that are available on their system that aren't on the website, and vice versa, and sometimes that messes with the ordering process. I wanted the tan oak trim around the door panels with the black Windsor leather but ended up with the ash gray trim, which looks fine - but he basically gave me free run at the trinket/accessory rack for the error, so the compensation was proportional. I'm guessing my hiccup was a product of the pre-production ordering system (at the time) not matching with the final configurations.
But not getting the full Tow Pack - definitely a deal breaker! But hey, now the dealer has one to sell off the lot to someone else who's desperate for one - probably at a markup. Maybe squeeze em a little off that margin for yours....
DieselRanger
Well-known member
I noticed he aired down his 60-series BFG's quite a bit...33" tire in 275/60-20.
Fantastic video.
T-Willy
Well-known member
While researching the possibility of ordering a Defender, I reviewed publicly available analyses and reports about modern Land Rover reliability. They consistently conclude that Land Rover reliability is still poor, and that Land Rovers remain among the least reliable vehicles sold. I also found numerous consumer reports of Land Rovers becoming completely disabled (vehicles sold in the last five years). This information makes brand loyalists angry, so I won't go into it more here. You can see my posts, which quote from and link to the various reports, on the rage and hate thread.
I am taking a "wait and see" approach with Defender. I agree with your analysis that it is a unique offering for remote touring because it combines a nearly one-ton payload with off-road capability; no other wagon does that. But, for me, reliability is also critical for remote touring, and Land Rover's reputation places the burden on Defender to demonstrate reliability sufficient for remote touring. So, time will tell -- we'll see.
JackW
Explorer
They sold that truck within two hours of me notifying them that I wasn't going to take delivery of that one. I'll have to see how much of a premium they got. A soccer mom traded in her Tahoe for it. I was over at the dealer to see my salesman about ordering a replacement and walked out to see the family climbing in to "my" truck to drive it away. That kinda sucked since I ordered it back in January. I've had a deposit down since September.
soflorovers
Well-known member
I'd love to believe that, but I highly doubt they'd do that. I also recently found out that the two trims have completely different final drives. I'm guessing the axles and diffs are different.
Victory_Overland
Explorer
Can't fault @T-Willy on the individual thought process and I agree with @ChasingOurTrunks that there is no true metrics to what and who and why someone hits a service call so I feel much of our data is skewed no matter what OEM we buy from. On that note, JLR does have a reputation but I have yet to find a major failure that was not fixed; although could be expensive (LR4 timing chain for example) and I'd consider taking a deep dive into looking at Jeeps record for major recalls as well. Not saying things are off kilter or throwing it out there but why is it since I was a kid, [MOPAR] Jeep has been notorious for major driveline failures and they still have the same issues today? With that said, my point is I agree we all have our ups and downs but some people seem relatively blind to what they will accept from an OEM because of what is on the door tag; JLR enthusiasts included but then quickly hammer on someone else's decision on brand choice when theirs has the same if not worse reputation.
Neighbors Gladiator has been in and out of the dealer for recalls and service issues since he owned it for the last few months. His JK experience was similar with similar problems and the guy next door is in the same boat and same vehicle; they don't seem to mind but for me, never had that issue at all with my LR3 so experiences there vastly different and all three of those vehicles are many years newer than mine. I bought mine second owner with 67k on it and lost a wheel bearing a few thousand into ownership and the dealer fixed it no questions asked. 131k and the rears are still tight and right but they will get refreshed regardless on the next teardown for my planned suspension mods and refresh. Again, everyone is different but I just don't see where all of these massive failures in JLR are documented outside of service claim stuff like @ChasingOurTrunks is speaking of. In the year 2020, if my Gladiator was in the shop that many times for computer and driveline issues, there better not be a hint of need of a squeak or duct-tape needed for the remainder of the warranty unless I did it on the trail........same goes with JLR product or Tesla, or Toyota.
My buddy has a million mile Cummins in his Ram 3500; that Cummins will literally run for a million miles and nobody will shake a stick at that; rear diff and axle issues twice, just like his previous Ram......he buys it for the Cummins and accepts risks with the driveline.
Good to hear you guys admit there are issues in your brands too; takes legit people to speak the truth openly.
I won't buy a first year vehicle ever until the recalls and the glitches are worked out; so maybe next year or a lease turnover; but that is just me! Regardless I want to see the Defender succeed as I believe JLR needs it and it will be good for the overall industry. You can bet your booty if the D90 for some reason gets cheap, on coils, and the reliability numbers line up; there are going to be a few brands getting an eye opener with some competition in more ways than just the trail.
Neighbors Gladiator has been in and out of the dealer for recalls and service issues since he owned it for the last few months. His JK experience was similar with similar problems and the guy next door is in the same boat and same vehicle; they don't seem to mind but for me, never had that issue at all with my LR3 so experiences there vastly different and all three of those vehicles are many years newer than mine. I bought mine second owner with 67k on it and lost a wheel bearing a few thousand into ownership and the dealer fixed it no questions asked. 131k and the rears are still tight and right but they will get refreshed regardless on the next teardown for my planned suspension mods and refresh. Again, everyone is different but I just don't see where all of these massive failures in JLR are documented outside of service claim stuff like @ChasingOurTrunks is speaking of. In the year 2020, if my Gladiator was in the shop that many times for computer and driveline issues, there better not be a hint of need of a squeak or duct-tape needed for the remainder of the warranty unless I did it on the trail........same goes with JLR product or Tesla, or Toyota.
My buddy has a million mile Cummins in his Ram 3500; that Cummins will literally run for a million miles and nobody will shake a stick at that; rear diff and axle issues twice, just like his previous Ram......he buys it for the Cummins and accepts risks with the driveline.
Good to hear you guys admit there are issues in your brands too; takes legit people to speak the truth openly.
I won't buy a first year vehicle ever until the recalls and the glitches are worked out; so maybe next year or a lease turnover; but that is just me! Regardless I want to see the Defender succeed as I believe JLR needs it and it will be good for the overall industry. You can bet your booty if the D90 for some reason gets cheap, on coils, and the reliability numbers line up; there are going to be a few brands getting an eye opener with some competition in more ways than just the trail.
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Most of the diff components would be the same just different ring and pinion gears same as the LR3/4 and RRS. The axles are probably the same between engines. However the ones with a rear locker may have stronger rear axles like on the older trucks.
DieselRanger
Well-known member
Somebody has part numbers out there...the Internet will tell us.
Red90
Adventurer
"Low profile" is a relative term, especially if it's a 20" wheel with a 35" inch tire. If that combo doesn't provide you with adequate sidewall, then nothing will.
Bwahahahahahaha!!!!
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
Thanks for that! I’ll for sure check out your other post as that’s exactly the kind of info I’d love to see.
I am also taking a “wait and see” approach on the Defender’s ability to do remote travel and that will be impacted hugely by reliability. I am excited at the potential for the platform though — as an Overlander, it checks a ton of boxes on my list. Payload, the third seat in the front, ample room in the back for dogs and gear, a roof load rating that can hold more than an occasional piece of wood, and it has a published wading depth which is apparently very rare for NA-market vehicles for some reason. And when I built my ‘dream’ Defender it came out at a comparable cost to a similarly built Gladiator - but the LR had a much nicer interior and comfort features, so it’s priced very competitively to similarly performing “off the lot” rigs. I’m really hopeful it is also robust and reliable because thats the last - and most important box for it to check. Can’t wait to see how many of these make roll the odo over 6 figures a few times to see what the high-mileage/rough-mileage reliability is.
So on one hand I have read that sales of the Defender have been strong, and then this article says "only 22,000 units have been ordered" and that is disappointing...
If the goal was to reach 100,000 units globally (which is what I had read many times over the last few years), it seems 22,000 so far is not that bad, but then again, they have been making them since October so that is 7 months already that the order books have been open...
Jaguar Land Rover To Cut 1,100 Jobs As Pandemic Hits With $500 Million Loss | Carscoops
The British automaker has also raised its cost-cutting target to $6.3 billionwww.carscoops.com
JLR/Tata financials are a train wreck. Jaguar more the issue than Land Rover but still expect to see some LR product line changes. The EV push, which has been very expensive and piles up the debt, is not compatible with LR's historical intended use profile, unless you are a urban cruiser. LR's engine options reflect government mandates vs actual customer needs so sales/orders are poor. Reports that Australia Defender sales are lagging without larger diesel option. EU/UK volumes are off huge.
Jaguar Land Rover Might Announce Model Cuts In A Few Weeks
Will be interesting to see what is left of JLR product line once the model cuts are made.