New Defender News

[umbertob]

It's premiering on the FYI channel at 10:00 PM this Sunday here in the US.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

New Defender TuffAnt Wheel Kit w/ Brake Calipers

Finally! The 18" Alloy Wheels for the New Defender that you have been waiting for are here and in stock at Lucky 8! This kit consists of 5 - 18x8" Alloy Wheels in Satin Black and our exclusive Brake Caliper upgrade kit that is required for fitment of the 18s on the New Defender P400 model with...

lucky8llc.com

"Finally! The 18" Alloy Wheels for the New Defender that you have been waiting for are here and in stock at Lucky 8! This kit consists of 5 - 18x8" Alloy Wheels in Satin Black and our exclusive Brake Caliper upgrade kit that is required for fitment of the 18s on the New Defender P400 model with 350mm rotors. The brake calipers are a direct swap for your existing calipers and require no modification to the vehicle as they use the same hardware, brake lines and even brake pads. These calipers are a smaller housing and allows the fitment of these specific 18" wheels. "

This is very interesting -- I wonder if this caliper swap will allow the fitment of JLR's steelies (or some steels from somewhere), or if it just works with these alloys? (Not sure if you know Naks, that's more a 'question for the universe').

I honestly don’t know. But from what I saw in the video it looked like the Defender did very well without lockers or solid axles compared to the fully locked rubicon. IMO had the Jeep not been fully locked up with the sway bar disconnected it would’ve struggled.

That was my takeaway too -- they didn't really give a firm nod to either one. For those curious, at the end the younger of the Duo said that, in the $75k range that both of those vehicles were spec'd at, he would take the Wrangler, but at the $50k range that their original Defender was spec'd at, he would take the Defender. Roman (the older of the duo) was the opposite and preferred the Defender.

In terms of off-road performance, the Defender did better than the jeep in my opinion -- the Jeep has skid plates, and it made use of them. The Defender did not touch going over the same obstacles. I also found it interesting to watch the "dash cam" sections in both vehicles -- when in the Defender, they seemed to be pretty comfy, whereas in the Jeep, they were being tossed back and forth in their seats a lot more. Of course, the "dash cam" sections might have been on different parts of the trail, but overall I think we all know the New Defender is a lot more comfortable in on-road driving - it appears to be a good bit more comfortable off-road too. A full day in 4-low going over potholed terrain in my old jeep was a physical workout -- constantly flexing muscles in response to the rocking back and forth. I haven't seen a video of this comparison yet but it does look like the Defender would result in a less fatiguing day behind the wheel in these conditions, which is super important for longer, day-after-day trips.

But in terms of apples to apples, your $70k in the Defender gets a lot more standard features (many of which are standard in the Defender) than the near $80k of that Jeep. Granted it's got a V8 in it which is cool, but it's got manual seats, and is basically a Rubicon with a big motor and fancy stickers. I didn't notice anything in that jeep like tri-zone climate control or some of the other more "luxury" features that come with the Defender. I'm glad it's well past April fools day because otherwise I'm not sure I'd believe this myself, but but the Defender appears to be far better value for money than the Jeep -- and that's not a term used to describe much of the JLR catalogue!

 

[Carson G]

This is very interesting -- I wonder if this caliper swap will allow the fitment of JLR's steelies (or some steels from somewhere), or if it just works with these alloys? (Not sure if you know Naks, that's more a 'question for the universe').




That was my takeaway too -- they didn't really give a firm nod to either one. For those curious, at the end the younger of the Duo said that, in the $75k range that both of those vehicles were spec'd at, he would take the Wrangler, but at the $50k range that their original Defender was spec'd at, he would take the Defender. Roman (the older of the duo) was the opposite and preferred the Defender.

In terms of off-road performance, the Defender did better than the jeep in my opinion -- the Jeep has skid plates, and it made use of them. The Defender did not touch going over the same obstacles. I also found it interesting to watch the "dash cam" sections in both vehicles -- when in the Defender, they seemed to be pretty comfy, whereas in the Jeep, they were being tossed back and forth in their seats a lot more. Of course, the "dash cam" sections might have been on different parts of the trail, but overall I think we all know the New Defender is a lot more comfortable in on-road driving - it appears to be a good bit more comfortable off-road too. A full day in 4-low going over potholed terrain in my old jeep was a physical workout -- constantly flexing muscles in response to the rocking back and forth. I haven't seen a video of this comparison yet but it does look like the Defender would result in a less fatiguing day behind the wheel in these conditions, which is super important for longer, day-after-day trips.

But in terms of apples to apples, your $70k in the Defender gets a lot more standard features (many of which are standard in the Defender) than the near $80k of that Jeep. Granted it's got a V8 in it which is cool, but it's got manual seats, and is basically a Rubicon with a big motor and fancy stickers. I didn't notice anything in that jeep like tri-zone climate control or some of the other more "luxury" features that come with the Defender. I'm glad it's well past April fools day because otherwise I'm not sure I'd believe this myself, but but the Defender appears to be far better value for money than the Jeep -- and that's not a term used to describe much of the JLR catalogue!

It’s also not hard to spend $60k+ on a non V8 Jeep either. In fact the same could be said for most other current off road vehicles. Their original Defender also had the 18” wheels and the rear locker and I’d be willing to bet it would’ve made it look just as easy as the Jeep.

 

[T-Willy]

It’s also not hard to spend $60k+ on a non V8 Jeep either. In fact the same could be said for most other current off road vehicles.

And certainly 50s. That fact is an opportunity for the low spec Defender to compete for market share. I hope JLR has their eye on that (and, to that end, by also offering coils for a lower N.A. price point). I would like to believe that more volume would lead to better reliability too.

 

[mpinco]

And certainly 50s. That fact is an opportunity for the low spec Defender to compete for market share. I hope JLR has their eye on that (and, to that end, by also offering coils for a lower N.A. price point). I would like to believe that more volume would lead to better reliability too.

JLR has said they will target the lower cost market but it's not with today's Defender. The smaller product is light, simple and likely in the sub-$50K market.

2023 Land Rover Defender 80: What We Know So Far

Land Rover knows we can't get enough of the Defender, so it's gearing up to introduce the smaller, subcompact Defender 80.

www.caranddriver.com

Today's Defender will be moving up market.

The wild card in the changes to the product line is the new CEO.

 

[T-Willy]

This is a thorough, no-nonsense six-month review emphasizing towing and payload capability. They've had one now-resolved electronic non-start, and ongoing problems with Apple Carplay. Overall a positive review, but they're replacing it because GVW can't be upgraded.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

JLR has said they will target the lower cost market but it's not with today's Defender. The smaller product is light, simple and likely in the sub-$50K market.

2023 Land Rover Defender 80: What We Know So Far

Land Rover knows we can't get enough of the Defender, so it's gearing up to introduce the smaller, subcompact Defender 80.

www.caranddriver.com

Today's Defender will be moving up market.

The wild card in the changes to the product line is the new CEO.

Thanks for sharing that; I'd not heard of that one yet I don't think. I know there's not a lot of info but that feels a bit more like what the Jeep Compass is to the Wrangler as opposed to a truly "cheaper" Defender. I think a lot of folks might have hoped for a more stripped version of the 110/90 with fewer bells and whistles (thus making it more "entry level") as opposed to a smaller platform. I am not slighting the Compass -- any car you adventure in is a good car in my books -- but it's quite a different class of vehicle from the Wrangler, and I suspect this might be true of the proposed 80 as compared to the 110 based on that article.

This idea of a "value proposition" is interesting to me. Does the Defender represent a "good value" Overlanding vehicle? For example, I would say that a 2-door Jeep is good value -- super cheap, but that cheapness comes with sacrifices in space. On the other end of the spectrum a Land Cruiser 200 is good value too -- despite being near 6 figures -- because of what you get for your money.

I did a build and price on the three vehicles that come to mind for me, that I could and would buy today, for overlanding/off-road touring to get a sense of the Defender's value proposition. For me that was the Wrangler, the 4-Runner, and the Defender was the "control". For both the Wrangler and 4-runner, I only added accessories if the Land Rover came with them in it's base form for an "apples to apples" comparison -- for that reason, I actually chose a Sahara as opposed to a Rubicon -- and I only added the tow package to the Defender (which comes with most of the off-road goodies). To compare I also added the TRD package to the Toyota and whatever I could plug onto the Sahara to make it "close" (like a limited slip rear diff). My methodology was far from scientific but I'll share my results anyway.

The Jeep came in at $54,402 CAD
The 4Runner came in at $52,879 CAD
The Defender came in at $71,136 CAD.

Is the Defender worth $17k to $20k more than SUVs that would appeal to a similar kind of buyer? I actually think it's close -- the base Defender comes with so many more options than the other two -- options that the other two don't even have available -- that the value for money argument is actually pretty close. I think on the used market, there's going to be no competition for the next little bit -- used Defenders are likely to inherit the resale value disadvantage of being a Land Rover, which both Toyota and Jeep do not have as they hold their resale very well. In terms of cash purchase though, I think forking out an extra $20k is a pretty big jump in the budget for a lot of people, so I wonder how much the standard features/driving experience will convince people to spend the extra. In terms of financing, a quick comparison on that put the Defender in at $860/month and, with the same term and interest, the Jeep and Toyota are closer to $650 a month -- so even on a finance deal, the Defender has a $200/month premium minimum over it's competition. I used a non-Dealership calculator for that math, and just changed the purchase price so all other things (interest, term, etc.) are equal.

Like I said from my lens this is super close and I actually think, relative to the competition, the value proposition isn't that bad. What say the wisdom of the group? Do you think, based on all we know, that the Defender represents a similar, better, or worse value than Overland-ready vehicles in a similar class?

 

[mpinco]

I does feel like the D80 is the Compass equivalent. Smaller, lighter, lower cost. In the bigger picture it serves the emission control / government regulation and future higher CAFE ratings/volume space. We can complain all day but the general direction of vehicles is smaller, lighter, more fuel efficient. Personally I think cost has become an issue for all manufacturers. The D90 is probably averaging $75K on the dealer lots. Maybe higher as I haven't been "shopping" for a very long time (my 2011 LR4 is mostly just fine)

In general the D80 is the direction of ICE based / reasonable cost vehicles. JLR is moving to all Aluminum mono chassis that take a lot of investment to maintain the structural needs of a standard SUV. The Cruise Master video highlights one growing issues - GVWR and the potential buyers wanting more towing capabilities. The D90 roughly can tow a 16-20' travel trailer. Above that size you have to closely manage weight and load distribution. Over 20-25' TT the D90 is not the right solution. If your going to spend $75K I suspect a better solution falls outside the JLR product line. I can say that my vehicle needs include towing and that I'll probably be looking outside JLR for our next vehicle purchase.

The light weight aluminum direction will serve the growing regulation of CAFE but at the expense of towing capability. Now that the full frame LR4 is no longer a product and the Range Rover/D90 product line have moved to monoque I can say JLR is moving away from our towing needs. As buyers encounter two-foot-itis there really isnt't anything that JLR can offer. The D80 will serve their product line needs and likely become their volume leader. The move to EV will put even more pressure on the need to downsize GVWR.

The D90 offers good value but the cost is getting out of control relative to family economics. JLR isn't the only manufacturer struggling with that issue.

 

[UnfrozenCaveman]

"The A&E network and Land Rover North America are partnering on a new documentary called "All You Need To Know: Overlanding."

Oh FFS, now where in blazes do I go to get away from the idiots ...

 

[Carson G]

Thanks for sharing that; I'd not heard of that one yet I don't think. I know there's not a lot of info but that feels a bit more like what the Jeep Compass is to the Wrangler as opposed to a truly "cheaper" Defender. I think a lot of folks might have hoped for a more stripped version of the 110/90 with fewer bells and whistles (thus making it more "entry level") as opposed to a smaller platform. I am not slighting the Compass -- any car you adventure in is a good car in my books -- but it's quite a different class of vehicle from the Wrangler, and I suspect this might be true of the proposed 80 as compared to the 110 based on that article.

This idea of a "value proposition" is interesting to me. Does the Defender represent a "good value" Overlanding vehicle? For example, I would say that a 2-door Jeep is good value -- super cheap, but that cheapness comes with sacrifices in space. On the other end of the spectrum a Land Cruiser 200 is good value too -- despite being near 6 figures -- because of what you get for your money.

I did a build and price on the three vehicles that come to mind for me, that I could and would buy today, for overlanding/off-road touring to get a sense of the Defender's value proposition. For me that was the Wrangler, the 4-Runner, and the Defender was the "control". For both the Wrangler and 4-runner, I only added accessories if the Land Rover came with them in it's base form for an "apples to apples" comparison -- for that reason, I actually chose a Sahara as opposed to a Rubicon -- and I only added the tow package to the Defender (which comes with most of the off-road goodies). To compare I also added the TRD package to the Toyota and whatever I could plug onto the Sahara to make it "close" (like a limited slip rear diff). My methodology was far from scientific but I'll share my results anyway.

The Jeep came in at $54,402 CAD
The 4Runner came in at $52,879 CAD
The Defender came in at $71,136 CAD.

Is the Defender worth $17k to $20k more than SUVs that would appeal to a similar kind of buyer? I actually think it's close -- the base Defender comes with so many more options than the other two -- options that the other two don't even have available -- that the value for money argument is actually pretty close. I think on the used market, there's going to be no competition for the next little bit -- used Defenders are likely to inherit the resale value disadvantage of being a Land Rover, which both Toyota and Jeep do not have as they hold their resale very well. In terms of cash purchase though, I think forking out an extra $20k is a pretty big jump in the budget for a lot of people, so I wonder how much the standard features/driving experience will convince people to spend the extra. In terms of financing, a quick comparison on that put the Defender in at $860/month and, with the same term and interest, the Jeep and Toyota are closer to $650 a month -- so even on a finance deal, the Defender has a $200/month premium minimum over it's competition. I used a non-Dealership calculator for that math, and just changed the purchase price so all other things (interest, term, etc.) are equal.

Like I said from my lens this is super close and I actually think, relative to the competition, the value proposition isn't that bad. What say the wisdom of the group? Do you think, based on all we know, that the Defender represents a similar, better, or worse value than Overland-ready vehicles in a similar class?

IMO you need a rubicon to get close to the Defender (with TR2 and locking rear diff) in off road capability. The other thing is the Defender can still carry and tow significantly more I mean it’s in 1/2 ton truck territory. The only thing that maybe surpasses the Defenders overall capability is a Power Wagon and even then it has the size disadvantage and worse on road dynamics.

 

[mpinco]

The Power Wagon is a 3/4 ton truck.

The Defender is a 1/2 ton, barely. Where LR nuked themselves is with the 330 lb tongue weight rating at full payload. Backing out payload, they do publish 770lb. Remember when LR rated their hitch at 550 lbs? Even with a LR3/4 using factory spec the TT was limited to around 19'. I pulled a 19' TT with a 75' Scout many years ago.

The PowerWagon tongue weight rating is 1,800 lb.

 

[mspeters]

Scanned the 2022 build options. Coil springs are now an option, but it precludes adding locking differentials (via the advanced off road pack with configurable terrain response). I can understand the terrain management software is intricately tied to air suspension. Seems the s/w could be stripped/simplified for coils. Likely a final roadblock to ordering a successor to my D1.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

IMO you need a rubicon to get close to the Defender (with TR2 and locking rear diff) in off road capability. The other thing is the Defender can still carry and tow significantly more I mean it’s in 1/2 ton truck territory. The only thing that maybe surpasses the Defenders overall capability is a Power Wagon and even then it has the size disadvantage and worse on road dynamics.

I don't disagree at all -- I tried to get close to a "feature to feature" comparison, and since the Rubicon is twin locked and the Defender only has a rear locker available, I thought the comparison was a bit closer but my original example actually gives a significant "Value for Money" advantage to the Jeep -- I just went and did the same process with a Rubicon and the gap is narrowed; the Rubicon came in at $59,500 CAD in this "apples to apples" comparison, which translates to a cash-price difference of only $11,636. And still, the Defender comes with a lot more stuff than we can get on a Rubicon, and so from that "value for money" perspective I think the Defender wins out in that shootout.

I recognize the closest I'm getting here is Crab Apples to Apple Pie -- they share a lot of DNA but they are different beasts -- but the comparison does in some ways refute the idea that "Land Rovers are expensive luxury vehicles, and the Defender is no different" that we often see shared about the brand. It's for sure more expensive than similar vehicles -- but in that gap you get a lot more stuff. It's a bit like staying in a hotel in Toronto -- I used to be able to get a 2.5 star hotel for about $130/night. $160/night gets me into a 4 star -- and while I prefer a tent, the 4-star hotel has WAY more amenities than the 2.5 star offering, so that $30 difference really gets you a ton of value. I think the Defender is similar.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I does feel like the D80 is the Compass equivalent. Smaller, lighter, lower cost. In the bigger picture it serves the emission control / government regulation and future higher CAFE ratings/volume space. We can complain all day but the general direction of vehicles is smaller, lighter, more fuel efficient. Personally I think cost has become an issue for all manufacturers. The D90 is probably averaging $75K on the dealer lots. Maybe higher as I haven't been "shopping" for a very long time (my 2011 LR4 is mostly just fine)

In general the D80 is the direction of ICE based / reasonable cost vehicles. JLR is moving to all Aluminum mono chassis that take a lot of investment to maintain the structural needs of a standard SUV. The Cruise Master video highlights one growing issues - GVWR and the potential buyers wanting more towing capabilities. The D90 roughly can tow a 16-20' travel trailer. Above that size you have to closely manage weight and load distribution. Over 20-25' TT the D90 is not the right solution. If your going to spend $75K I suspect a better solution falls outside the JLR product line. I can say that my vehicle needs include towing and that I'll probably be looking outside JLR for our next vehicle purchase.

The light weight aluminum direction will serve the growing regulation of CAFE but at the expense of towing capability. Now that the full frame LR4 is no longer a product and the Range Rover/D90 product line have moved to monoque I can say JLR is moving away from our towing needs. As buyers encounter two-foot-itis there really isnt't anything that JLR can offer. The D80 will serve their product line needs and likely become their volume leader. The move to EV will put even more pressure on the need to downsize GVWR.

The D90 offers good value but the cost is getting out of control relative to family economics. JLR isn't the only manufacturer struggling with that issue.

I agree that the future is "Compact" for ICE vehicles.

I never really saw the Defender as a tow vehicle -- it's nice that it CAN tow, but I agree with you that if I needed to tow often I would be looking outside of JLR for that rig. A pickup truck is preferable in my books - anything with a swinging gate (like the Defender and Jeeps) make towing annoying as so much of your cargo access is impeded by the trailer when it's hooked up. I strongly prefer a pickup in this scenario where I can reach over the edges to pull stuff out that I need. A related observation - I'd really love to see some of the technology being applied to vehicles ALSO applied to trailers. Like what would a monocoque travel trailer look like and how would that work? I'm speculating that trailers could be made much stronger and more robust, and much lighter, with some more modern manufacturing techniques and approaches. There are some really neat lightweight travel trailers in Australia that use pneumatic tubes for the structure, and while I have no idea if that's actually better, it's a rare case of innovation in the travel trailer industry which often seems to think that they can only build things out of heavy steel and balsa wood! (That's a bit tongue in cheek but many of the manufacturers do fit this description based on what I see on the lots)

 

[T-Willy]

Yeah, towing for Defender, by virtue of its design, is a bit of a sideshow. What truly distinguishes Defender among North American offerings is its combination of one-ton payload and off-road chops. No other wagon offers that key combination for remote touring.