New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[DieselRanger]

Being a consumer and not an engineer, I did not understand the distinction between quality control and production / assembly. I assumed the former was part of the latter.

And so then, in that case, we have a triple failure:

Production and assembly created the problem; quality control failed to catch and correct the problem; and then, after money changed hands, the dealer (twice) failed at diagnosing or fixing the problem, or providing a replacement vehicle.

I doubt this problem proves systemic, but maybe it will. We'll see

But still, this poor guy. What a ************ way to part with $70K

I don't think you can say that production/assembly caused the problem yet, because we don't know why the failure occurred. All we have is some guy on the internet b*tching about one vehicle that had what sounds like a melty part, which has attracted attention that resulted in his internet b*tching going away, presumably so that LR could help address the issue directly with him. I don't think any of us know the root cause. Dude could have been looking to manufacture his own 15 minutes of fame.

One-off problems escape production Q&A all the time - you can't white-glove every single vehicle. You try to go slowly initially on new *anythings* (cars, refrigerators, fighter jets, rockets) so you have a higher chance of catching issues that are or could become systemic, but it's just too complex a process to have 1:1 QA oversight over the whole process. Which is why automakers force dealers to spend so much money on their service departments, including certifying their mechanics. BMW's certification process is particularly onerous from my understanding. Recall dealers buy the cars from the automaker and then sell them to consumers - they are not directly employed by the automakers, the lone exception I believe still being Tesla.

So as far as the dealer goes, it's a brand new vehicle, likely the first one the dealer's service department saw. So the dealership's problem is that dealership's problem in the absence of additional information. Maybe they dorked up the PDI, maybe that item wasn't on the PDI and should be, maybe that dealer doesn't hire the smartest mechanics and they didn't pay attention at Defender School and they're going to get some remedial tutoring.

The rest...we'll see.

 

[mpinco]

Wouldn't be surprised to see industry quality/reliability decline post-covid as a result of overall operations being shutdown, suppliers put on hold, higher debt, cost cutting and then slowly restarted.

 

[catmann]

I don't think you can say that production/assembly caused the problem yet, because we don't know why the failure occurred. All we have is some guy on the internet b*tching about one vehicle that had what sounds like a melty part, which has attracted attention that resulted in his internet b*tching going away, presumably so that LR could help address the issue directly with him. I don't think any of us know the root cause. Dude could have been looking to manufacture his own 15 minutes of fame.

Simon is not some guy bitching on the internet, he is a Land Rover fanatic and runs a Land Rover specialty company, Powerfuluk. And he most definately was extremely polite about the issues - I don't think he was complaining much at all, most of his content is/was very positive about the Defender. We sort of took what he found and nicely pointed out (other than his not so great dealer service) and ran with it on this forum to prove that with all of that talk about striving for perfection, issues are still a real thing. Same thing happened with the Discovery, there is a starting point where little niggles need worked out. His engine did not blow up or anything, just some hassles which we all know is why they say "never buy a year one production vehicle". It's not that they are doomed, they will just make you visit the dealer more times than others down the road. That is always the price to be the first on the block with a new toy!

 

[DieselRanger]

Simon is not some guy bitching on the internet, he is a Land Rover fanatic and runs a Land Rover specialty company, Powerfuluk. And he most definately was extremely polite about the issues - I don't think he was complaining much at all, most of his content is/was very positive about the Defender. We sort of took what he found and nicely pointed out (other than his not so great dealer service) and ran with it on this forum to prove that with all of that talk about striving for perfection, issues are still a real thing. Same thing happened with the Discovery, there is a starting point where little niggles need worked out. His engine did not blow up or anything, just some hassles which we all know is why they say "never buy a year one production vehicle". It's not that they are doomed, they will just make you visit the dealer more times than others down the road. That is always the price to be the first on the block with a new toy!

He is a sample size of one. Maybe Land Rover jumped on the issue because of his influence, but he is still one guy with one problem on one vehicle.

Shall we survey all the people who have taken delivery of a new Defender and NOT had a problem? Not sure how we do that.

 

[soflorovers]

Ouch.

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The vehicle he drove didn't have a rear locker, only a center locker (the photos confirm). The fact that a D5 in their group was able to clear obstacles that the new Defender couldn't should've been a dead giveaway. Furthermore, his main complaint was regarding the tires; he's not running the factory Duratrac option and instead had the Goodyear Kevlar option which isn't ideal for sharp edges when running at half the recommended PSI (Again, photos confirm). The D5 that accompanied them had "a better 3 ply sidewall tire and it really was a beast." So @EricTyrrell if this is the hill you want to die on, then be my guest...but at the end of the day, this comparison wasn't exactly fair. Now, if you want to see what one of the most popular AT tires can do for a new Defender....

EDIT: I just realized that the OP tagged in the post below (Steve) also has videos of the new Defender on trail. The first thing I noticed (and also confirmed) is that this truck is already running aftermarket lift rods. There are literally dozens of LR3/4 owners on this forum who will argue over the pros/cons of lift rods until the day they die. Looking at the video, the truck is permanently locked into "Extended" off road height. Obviously, this allows for very little suspension articulation. However, this isn't my brand new 80k truck, so I can't criticize them for using off road height full time to avoid body damage on their new rig. Overall, I'm impressed with how it handled that trail in light of the self-imposed suspension limitations. For reference, I never use the "off road" height setting on my LR3 because I like it when my suspension actually works; instead, my GAP tool locks the suspension at what is ordinarily the normal off road height which allows for some compliance. I'm sure this truck would've been far better off on that same tire, but at factory height settings. A Lucky8 SYA kit would probably work wonders on this truck too...

 

[JeepColorado]

To inject a touch of positivity in here if you haven't already, I'd highly encourage you to listen to the latest podcast from Scott and Matt- they chat with the Range Rover product lead and have some Defender conversation talking about product placement and at the end have a frank discussion on reliability concerns.

 

[Corgi_express]

at the end of the day, this comparison wasn't exactly fair

It really frustrated me to see an accomplished 4x4 trainer pulling such an unfair comparison and making such a trollish statement while providing minimal details on the rig in question. It's almost impossible to find a Defender built with the rear locker in the US right now (I've tried), and very few have decent tires on them either. He might as well have been running a stock Wrangler Sport and then complaining about how Jeep is dead as an off road company.

An interesting point is that this Defender had the 6 cylinder (this is also what the vast majority of rigs in the US right now have). I am curious whether the 4 cylinder will end up being the better off road rig - it has a better gear ratio, but the mild hybrid on the 6 cylinder should theoretically have a big edge by delivering loads of torque from the electric motor.

 

[dreadlocks]

reminds me when Grand Tour did episode on European SUV's, one segment they tried to offroad up a grassy hill on street tires.. they were all rubbish and struggling on wet grass, but it must be the vehicle's fault it could not compensate for wearing the equivalent of flip flop footwear while mountaineering.. Someone coulda tossed all terrains on a minivan and driven it to the top with less issues.

 

[JeepColorado]

Overall, this is an impressive video and is much more promising than that video of the Defender struggling with rocks a couple of weeks ago.


However, here's one of my biggest complaints about traction control. It's still just not as competent as lockers- this driver clearly knows what he is doing, the tires are clearly aired down, so none of those excuses. Notice at minute 2:20- the front driver's wheel starts losing traction and then at 2:23 the computer finally has figured it out and has apparently sent power over to the passenger side, but it causes the vehicle to lunge forward making the drivers front tire slam into the rock in front of it.

 

[EricTyrrell]

It really frustrated me to see an accomplished 4x4 trainer pulling such an unfair comparison and making such a trollish statement while providing minimal details on the rig in question. It's almost impossible to find a Defender built with the rear locker in the US right now (I've tried), and very few have decent tires on them either. He might as well have been running a stock Wrangler Sport and then complaining about how Jeep is dead as an off road company.

JLR allocates all the off-road features to the big $$$ chic trim level (which conversely doesn't get 18" wheels) but it's Bill's fault. Right.

An interesting point is that this Defender had the 6 cylinder (this is also what the vast majority of rigs in the US right now have). I am curious whether the 4 cylinder will end up being the better off road rig - it has a better gear ratio, but the mild hybrid on the 6 cylinder should theoretically have a big edge by delivering loads of torque from the electric motor.

They all have plenty of torque. Far less powerful engines have propelled vehicles to explore the planet and hit every technical trail possible for decades. Mechanical advantage is key.

 

[Corgi_express]

JLR allocates all the off-road features to the big $$$ chic trim level

This is patently false. You can order the base level Defender with nothing but a rear locker and off road tires. The problem is that the dealers (and apparently the people making the videos who did order their own) are not ordering them that way.

 

[Carson G]

This is patently false. You can order the base level Defender with nothing but a rear locker and off road tires. The problem is that the dealers (and apparently the people making the videos who did order their own) are not ordering them that way.

Thank you! If you want a base model with nothing but the off road goodies you can order that.

 

[Carson G]

Overall, this is an impressive video and is much more promising than that video of the Defender struggling with rocks a couple of weeks ago.


However, here's one of my biggest complaints about traction control. It's still just not as competent as lockers- this driver clearly knows what he is doing, the tires are clearly aired down, so none of those excuses. Notice at minute 2:20- the front driver's wheel starts losing traction and then at 2:23 the computer finally has figured it out and has apparently sent power over to the passenger side, but it causes the vehicle to lunge forward making the drivers front tire slam into the rock in front of it.

There’s a company in the UK that makes front and rear LSD’s for the RRS that will more than likely work in the Defender. That in combination with traction control should be adequate for most things. Maybe if there’s enough demand ARB will come up with some air lockers for it.

 

[EricTyrrell]

This is patently false. You can order the base level Defender with nothing but a rear locker and off road tires. The problem is that the dealers (and apparently the people making the videos who did order their own) are not ordering them that way.

Configuring one online is not the same as actually being available, as you noticed. Theory vs reality. The dealerships know people don't shop there for off-road vehicles anymore. No 2020 JLR customer knows or cares what an electronic active differential is. I guess it's still Bill's fault for testing an example that represents what is actually available.

 

[dreadlocks]

pretty typical for luxury vehicles, if you want something specific just go order one.. your gonna have to do that with every auto manufacturer now days if you just want a vehicle thats not on the monochrome color palette.. If your buying new who gives a crap, its 2nd owners like me that gotta go on unicorn hunts to find the one we want configured.

Just be glad there's something available you can get today, there's plenty of European prestige class vehicles you wont ever find new on a lot as all allocations are taken by pre orders years out.. go try to buy an SQ7 w/rear sports diff, you might get to drive it a year from now.. my local dealer said they got 3 years worth of orders down for the new RS6 and they haven't even delivered the 1st one yet.. its gonna be a very long time before you find one of those for sale on a dealer lot thats not been claimed.