New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[JeepColorado]

I'm close to shutting this thread down. First of all, anything with Rage and Hate in the name evokes spewing fouls - You guys (especially the Viking with a Hammer) need to bring it back down to a level set, or I'm shutting it down.

The LR Bias from the moderators on this forum is the only thing that is foul. I've been personally insulted by @Corgi_express, called names by @Victory_Overland and not you nor @Christian P. have once seen fit to intervene except when to chastise the people on here who don't worship at the alter of the Green Oval. @Red90 This is THE forum for opinions of people who don't care for the Defender yet, you keep intervening and threatening to shut down those of us who disagree. What about those who continue to insult and personally attack those who aren't stuck loving the long-lost memory of LR?

@Scott Brady himself can't do a Podcast interview with a Senior LR official without inquiring about the reliability for LR- because from what I've seen he's a fair journalist with a sense of journalistic ethics- how could you possibly talk about a modern LR without mentioning the reliability elephant in the room if you wanted to remain to be seen as an impartial journalist? (JD Powers and many, many others show it's a fair question)

The Pro-LR crowd on here continues to say that the one aspect in which the LR (Objectively) beats the competition is their payload and towing capacity (ride comfort is subjective)- by the numbers alone- they are not wrong- it beats the Jeep and many others- ok, fair ball, you get to throw strikes, even hard strikes, but not fouls.

Strikes are fair points against the Jeep or LC like the subjective ride quality- Hard strikes are things that may really sting, but are true and have a basis in reality, like the payload comparison- fouls are the insults, the personal attacks, the cussing, the degrading...the ones I've seen doing the overwhelming majority of that over 160 pages on here are some of the LR proponents, but I guess you don't care about that. @dreadlocks said that the guy with the viking hammer doesn't know that the F he's talking about, then proceeded to insult the entire truck-buying American public, yet somehow this fails to register on your radar. @Dendy Jarrett

BTW, if you care about the facts, the Viking Hammer @Buliwyf , is not off in his opinion- per the Airstream Website, the Porsche could probably only safely tow about half of the Airstream models- https://www.airstream.com/blog/the-complete-airstream-towing-guide/ no matter what @dreadlocks opinion is of his experience and how lucky he may have been towing thus far, these are the facts from Airstream itself, but perhaps it's just easier as a moderator for Expedition Portal to err on the side of those arguing for LR.

Go ahead, shut this thread down, block me, but don't for a second pretend it's out of some sense of fairness and decency- you'd of banned several proponents of LR on here that violate your explicit rules a long time ago if that were true.

 

[Dendy Jarrett]

Colorado Jeep - lines of demarcation regarding brands or what we use to explore, travel, or find adventure should not exist here honestly. I've been a Land Rover guy, a Jeep guy, a Ford guy, and currently a RAM Power Wagon guy, and the truth is, I've found adventure with all of those brands. It defies logic that we all sit around in a Mac vs. PC way and try to prove who has the bigger brand (if you catch my drift).

And to your last points, I pull a 27 foot airstream. There isn't a Land Rover on the planet that I would pull an airstream with unless it was a 20 foot Caravel or smaller (think Base Camp). And as to the Porsche - Heck, I could pull my 27 foot airstream with a Prius, but will it stop it? Will it handle cornering? Will it handle grades? No. There is a proponent of pulling airstreams with any size vehicle as long as the weight distribution hitch is properly set up, but if you google Airstream accidents, the vast majority you come across are a vehicle that was underrated for the length of the trailer - and in many, many cases, mini-vans or undersized SUVs

So, there are indeed many here who will pound their chests as the end-all, be-all, know it all.

Let's try to exercise some gentlemanly protocol and just politely let the egg heads boast and move along.

Thanks for your understanding.

DJ

PS: There isn't a Jeep I'd tow an airstream with either. Not even the smallest of them without a trans cooler installed!

 

[Corgi_express]

I find it really amusing when someone trolls for pages and pages, spouting blatantly false statements and petty nonsense, and then acts like a victim and accuses the admins of Land Rover bias when people on the Land Rover section of the forum get frustrated and annoyed by the constant, repetitive, blind brand loyalist drivel.

 

[krick3tt]

I made an assumption that this section of the forum was to be devoted to Land Rovers and yet I find constant insertions that espouse distain for them and applause for other vehicle brands. Please confine praise of non LR vehicles to their devoted sections. This rage against the LR is unseemly and totally unnecessary. If you don't like them, don't buy them, it is not appropriate to continue to attempt to verbally bury them. Vote with your wallet.

 

[JeepColorado]

I find it really amusing when someone trolls for pages and pages, spouting blatantly false statements and petty nonsense, and then acts like a victim and accuses the admins of Land Rover bias when people on the Land Rover section of the forum get frustrated and annoyed by the constant, repetitive, blind brand loyalist drivel.

It's not being a troll to express negative thoughts about the Defender in a thread set up for the explicit purpose of expressing negative opinions about the Defender.

I've not spouted blatantly false statements for pages and pages- In 1 post I misremembered something I'd thought I'd read about the tire size on the Namibia Defenders, other than that I've stated nothing but facts and reasonable conclusions based on facts.

For example-

It's a fact that the Defender will have less off-road ability on technical terrain- maybe you don't care about this, perhaps you feel that is a less important data point for you and the overlanding and back-country adventuring you do, but it doesn't change the fact. This is a point that most every professional automotive journalist who discusses this aspect recognizes.

It's a fact that a comparable Defender will cost more than a comparable Wrangler- key word there being comparable in terms of off-road options, interior options etc.. The difference on the high-end of a Rubicon is not nearly as much as on the lower end of the Jeep range and maybe those few thousand dollars don't matter to you because you find the "charm" of a British 4x4 more appealing then the spirit of the Jeep, but it doesn't change the fact that the LR is more expensive.

It's a fact that the LR dealership network is less extensive then Jeeps- I'll trust that you have enough experience to understand why that could be important.

I could go on, but I hope you see the point that stating any of the above, is not trolling, it's certainly not false, nor do I consider any of the above petty data points about vehicle selection. Something I'd suggest that should be considered petty is continuing to call someone a troll when you read negative opinions in a thread dedicated to posting negative opinions that you choose to come to.

 

[XJLI]

I made an assumption that this section of the forum was to be devoted to Land Rovers and yet I find constant insertions that espouse distain for them and applause for other vehicle brands. Please confine praise of non LR vehicles to their devoted sections. This rage against the LR is unseemly and totally unnecessary. If you don't like them, don't buy them, it is not appropriate to continue to attempt to verbally bury them. Vote with your wallet.

Its ExPo. The rules are:

If it isn't a Toyota is wrong. Unless its a full-size diesel truck.
Land Rovers are all unreliable garbage, but pretty to look at.
"Wranglers don't have high enough payload!!!" - Tacoma owner running 750lbs over GVWR
Colorado ZR2, Ranger FX4 and Gladiator Rubicon come to market; people still cry about LC70s not being available in the US even though they are overpriced tractionless oxcarts from the factory.
"Land Crusiers are made to last a lifetime, thats why I spend $4500 a year on genuine Toyota parts for preventative maintenance."
Corvettes, BMW M cars, and people on scooters and mountain bikes make the trek to the Arctic Circle; clapped out Daihatsu vans drive all the roads in SA and Africa.. "Here's my Video Blog on my buildout for driving the Mojave Road!"
Domestic trucks are weak and unreliable! Only good for trips to the mall!.... "Selling my Lexus GX, fully built out, custom Slee/OEX/YouTube edition! Go anywhere! Never seen dirt! Only 285k miles, $44,999!"
"If I cant fix it in the field with two rocks and a pipe wrench it"s useless to me!"

 

[T-Willy]

I'm close to shutting this thread down. First of all, anything with Rage and Hate in the name evokes spewing fouls - You guys (especially the Viking with a Hammer) need to bring it back down to a level set, or I'm shutting it down.

Perhaps you could just censor posts that violate rules.

There's value to being able to fairly discuss Defender's potential shortcomings, like reliability. This is the place for that. Shutting this thread will only push that discussion onto others, like the New Defender News, which will upset brand loyalists and threaten worse conflict.

 

[Corgi_express]

There's value to being able to fairly discuss Defender's potential shortcomings, like reliability. This is the place for that. Shutting this thread will only push that discussion onto others, like the New Defender News

Actual reliability concerns - as in real-world examples, are already being discussed on the news thread. Unsubstantiated speculation from armchair mechanics is being vomited all over this thread, though. This thread is called "rage/hate" and started off with a bunch of "herp a derp it looks like a Kia" low effort trolling, not a level discussion of the pros/cons of Land Rover's record.

which will upset brand loyalists and threaten worse conflict.

Any time anyone thinks you're talking nonsense, it's a brand loyalist, yet any time someone regurgitates the same talking points about Jeep being the only vehicle that can possibly handle technical terrain, with ZERO FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE of the capability of the New Defender, that's just "fair discussion". This gaslighting, bad faith BS is exactly why this thread should be shut down.

 

[Corgi_express]

And before anyone thinks "ooooh I got him!" and writes a comment about how I called out someone else using "brand loyalist" as an attack while using the phrase myself.... go look for my posts on the Jeep or Toyota forums where I go out of my way to crap all over those cars. Oh wait, they don't exist, because I am not so obsessed with trying to prove my car is better than your car that I feel obligated to go trolling.

I post on Defender threads because I've driven the Defender, I like the Defender, and I plan to buy the Defender. If you love your own brand so much, I think you would be a lot happier and less miserable if you... I dunno, went and talked about your own brand somewhere? Maybe, say the forums dedicated to that brand? Or you could act like a 4chan teenager and constantly brigade other forums to try to make yourself feel superior.

 

[T-Willy]

And before anyone thinks "ooooh I got him!" and writes a comment about how I called out someone else using "brand loyalist" as an attack while using the phrase myself.... go look for my posts on the Jeep or Toyota forums where I go out of my way to crap all over those cars. Oh wait, they don't exist, because I am not so obsessed with trying to prove my car is better than your car that I feel obligated to go trolling.

I post on Defender threads because I've driven the Defender, I like the Defender, and I plan to buy the Defender. If you love your own brand so much, I think you would be a lot happier and less miserable if you... I dunno, went and talked about your own brand somewhere? Maybe, say the forums dedicated to that brand? Or you could act like a 4chan teenager and constantly brigade other forums to try to make yourself feel superior.

You are clearly upset, and should perhaps cool down before posting.

Some of us are actually interested in Defender as a remote touring vehicle, and recognize the unique combination of capabilities that it brings to market. But we also harbor concerns about things like reliability, which is an attribute critical for remote touring for which Land Rover has a poor track record. Discussing that information has nothing to do with proving whose car is better, and it is not trolling. It is an objective fact that Land Rover brand loyalists on this forum have complained about the objective fact that a trove of published reviews have concluded that Land Rover has a reliability problem. Again, that information bears on any sane consumer's purchasing decisions; discussing it, and doing so here, is not trolling.

 

[soflorovers]

It's not being a troll to express negative thoughts about the Defender in a thread set up for the explicit purpose of expressing negative opinions about the Defender.

I've not spouted blatantly false statements for pages and pages- In 1 post I misremembered something I'd thought I'd read about the tire size on the Namibia Defenders, other than that I've stated nothing but facts and reasonable conclusions based on facts.

For example-

It's a fact that the Defender will have less off-road ability on technical terrain- maybe you don't care about this, perhaps you feel that is a less important data point for you and the overlanding and back-country adventuring you do, but it doesn't change the fact. This is a point that most every professional automotive journalist who discusses this aspect recognizes.

It's a fact that a comparable Defender will cost more than a comparable Wrangler- key word there being comparable in terms of off-road options, interior options etc.. The difference on the high-end of a Rubicon is not nearly as much as on the lower end of the Jeep range and maybe those few thousand dollars don't matter to you because you find the "charm" of a British 4x4 more appealing then the spirit of the Jeep, but it doesn't change the fact that the LR is more expensive.

It's a fact that the LR dealership network is less extensive then Jeeps- I'll trust that you have enough experience to understand why that could be important.

I could go on, but I hope you see the point that stating any of the above, is not trolling, it's certainly not false, nor do I consider any of the above petty data points about vehicle selection. Something I'd suggest that should be considered petty is continuing to call someone a troll when you read negative opinions in a thread dedicated to posting negative opinions that you choose to come to.

I think I've identified the problem here. I really don't mean to offend (and I sense that you don't either), but I'm getting the impression that most of these things that you state as "fact" are merely your opinion, and many people on this forum take offense to you spewing false information as if it was cannon. The REALITY is that the new Defender will not "have less off-road ability on technical terrain" than the old one. The new Defender has nearly 2 more inches of ground clearance, can withstand a greater side tilt angle, is far more rigid, can wade nearly double the previous Defender and can be had from factory with dual lockers, a fact that everyone keeps conveniently ignoring. Did the old Defender have far more aftermarket potential? Sure, I'll concede that...but to say that the new Defender isn't as capable as the old one straight from factory is a flat out lie.

EDITED: Typos

 

[soflorovers]

JLR allocates all the off-road features to the big $$$ chic trim level (which conversely doesn't get 18" wheels) but it's Bill's fault. Right.



They all have plenty of torque. Far less powerful engines have propelled vehicles to explore the planet and hit every technical trail possible for decades. Mechanical advantage is key.

I had the opportunity to drive a P400 the last weekend and I feel I've obtained the information necessary to discuss Land Rover's tire choices. The P400 isn't rapid, but it's fast enough that I can confidently it would've been the fastest car made by LR prior to the introduction of the 5.0 SC AJV8 RRS in 2010. With that said, I can see why they felt the need to equip the P400 with larger brakes. If you don't necessarily need the extra performance, and instead are OK with only 300 HP, then the base P300 with 18' steel wheels is more than adequate and wheel selection is a non-issue.

I find it very hard to believe that the folks at JLR didn't think long and hard about fitting smaller brakes to the P400 so that an 18" wheel would be possible (after all, brakes diameter on mainstream SUVs don't sell cars in the same way that a horsepower figure sells a supercar; most consumers probably wouldn't notice the brake size on a spec sheet and a decision to downsize would probably save JLR money). Ultimately, a 20" is probably the best solution at the moment. Is it far from ideal? Of course, but the reality is that JLR did the same thing with The Works 5.0 Defender when they put an 18" wheel on that; would the 16" wheel have been better for off roading and tire selection? Yeah, but 5000+ lbs being hurled down the road with 400 hp needs large brakes.

Land Rover Defender Works V8 Forbidden Fruit Review

Built to celebrate the 70th anniversary of Britain's iconic off-roader, the Works V8 is everything a Land Rover Defender shouldn't be.

www.motortrend.com

 

[Corgi_express]

You are clearly upset, and should perhaps cool down before posting.

 

[DieselRanger]

Perhaps you could just censor posts that violate rules.

There's value to being able to fairly discuss Defender's potential shortcomings, like reliability. This is the place for that. Shutting this thread will only push that discussion onto others, like the New Defender News, which will upset brand loyalists and threaten worse conflict.

I'll second that - as the OP I created this thread to give an outlet to the people who are so confident in their opinions, based only on reading some teaser articles and hearing that it doesn't come with beam axles and coils front and rear with 48 inches of articulation and 37 inch tires, that the new Defender is suitable at best for showing up a Subaru Outback on the potholed 100 yard drive to the trailhead.

Because honestly they do get in the way of people who really want to see and discuss objectively what it can do, as we now are seeing in video after video on YouTube, in "real world" situations, not carefully scripted "marketing junkets" on "manicured" tracks in Africa and Kazakhstan and Moab. And as we are clearly seeing, those real world videos don't matter and clearly never would to the people who have been trolling here and on YouTube.

So this thread should be the place where people who don't like the Defender can come and make ridiculous statements about it, insult the vehicle all they want, post the inevitable fails that we will see where some ************** rolls one on Black Bear Pass or wherever, and highlight all the niggles and nits people will have with it as evidence that Land Rover should have just reintroduced the Series I but with 37 inch tires, a diesel V8, and a 3" body lift or some such nonsense.

Remove and censure the personal attacks because they have no place in a forum designed to foster community among overland enthusiasts.

 

[dreadlocks]

BTW, if you care about the facts, the Viking Hammer @Buliwyf , is not off in his opinion- per the Airstream Website, the Porsche could probably only safely tow about half of the Airstream models- https://www.airstream.com/blog/the-complete-airstream-towing-guide/ no matter what @dreadlocks opinion is of his experience and how lucky he may have been towing thus far, these are the facts from Airstream itself, but perhaps it's just easier as a moderator for Expedition Portal to err on the side of those arguing for LR.

I count 51 models listed, 8 of them exceed the max weight ratings of a Cayenne, half eh?.. and CanAmRV has been modifying this chassis since ~2004 for carrying extra tongue weight.. here's someones feedback from the mods..

I'm a little late in posting an update. I had CanAm reinforce my hitch back in late July. They ran 2.5 inch reinforced tubular steel down below the muffler and attached to steel between the wishbone suspension mounts. The modification does reduce my ground clearance by 2.5 inches.

Now the weight distribution bars lift from below and push weight forward through the bumper instead of twisting that weight forward through the mounting bolts. With the amount of miles I tow, I felt it was a worthwhile modification.

Since the reinforcement I've towed about 10,000 miles including a trip out to Yellowstone. The Touareg TDI is phenomenal and just blew away the performance of my Excursion 7.3 liter diesel towing the same trailer in the same mountains. Wow.

Oh yeah, fuel economy was 17.2 mpg round trip towing and over 30 mpg in the park where the speed limit is 45 mph. My old F-150 couldn't even get that EMPTY. Did I mention I love the Touareg?

And as to the Porsche - Heck, I could pull my 27 foot airstream with a Prius, but will it stop it? Will it handle cornering? Will it handle grades? No.

Lets see, Will it stop it? the Porsche has 6 piston brembo calipers on rotors just as big and potentially bigger (on GTS) than any truck.. Yes it will, amazingly fast, but your wheels are always dirty w/brake dust.
Will it handle cornering? Lol, really wanna put whatever your driving up against any Porsche on cornering? Of course it will.. Did you even watch the video I linked?
Will it handle grades? Well with base models starting at 300hp, and top end models reaching V12 Diesels and >500HP with an Aisin Transmission in all of em rated for like 800tq, the'll be passing you going up a mountain grade.. You can get em with center and rear diff locks, two speed transfer case, Electronic Sway bar disconnects, Air Ride Suspension and all sorts of great things OEM.