New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[Red90]

@Red90 This is THE forum for opinions of people who don't care for the Defender yet, you keep intervening and threatening to shut down those of us who disagree. What about those who continue to insult and personally attack those who aren't stuck loving the long-lost memory of LR?

Sorry? What did I so?

 

[JeepColorado]

I think I've identified the problem here. I really don't mean to offend (and I sense that you don't either), but I'm getting the impression that most of these things that you state as "fact" are merely your opinion, and many people on this forum take offense to you spewing false information as if it was cannon. The REALITY is that the new Defender will not "have less off-road ability on technical terrain" than the old one. The new Defender has nearly 2 more inches of ground clearance, can withstand a greater side tilt angle, is far more rigid, can wade nearly double the previous Defender and can be had from factory with dual lockers, a fact that everyone keeps conveniently ignoring. Did the old Defender have far more aftermarket potential? Sure, I'll concede that...but to say that the new Defender isn't as capable as the old one straight from factory is a flat out lie.

EDITED: Typos

Blame it on my poor writing skills, I wasn't comparing the current Defender to the old Defender in that post. As I was writing about the technical terrain aspect I was thinking of the Jeep since that's what we've been talking about. I think it'd be just about impossible for the new Defender to not be as good as the old Defender off-road speaking only as a stock vehicle.

It is my opinion however, that the new Defender doesn't have the charm of the old one, nor is the formula for the old one that was so successful, found in the current one. Rugged, Simple, Purpose Built

Stating that LR has less dealerships than Jeep is not an opinion- it's a fact

Stating that comparably equipped Defenders are more expensive in their advertised price than a comparable Wrangler is not an opinion - it's a fact

Stating that LR scores more poorly than the Wrangler does on mainstream accepted quality and customer satisfaction surveys is not an opinion - it's a fact

Each of these things are independently verifiable and quantifiable- facts!

Your and my interpretation of what the facts above means and what weight is given to each of these points is opinion, but the underlying facts are truths regardless of our opinion. ......and stating any of the above, while negative for LR, is certainly not "spewing false information" or trolling. I've said 1 false thing on here about tire size, it was unintentional as I had simply misremembered an article I'd read. As soon as it was called to my attention I noted it.

 

[Blaise]

I'm close to shutting this thread down. First of all, anything with Rage and Hate in the name evokes spewing fouls - You guys (especially the Viking with a Hammer) need to bring it back down to a level set, or I'm shutting it down.

Please do it. If there's anything this thread has proven it's that there are about a dozen people who cannot sleep at night because they are so enraged that HOW DARE a company which they have NO affiliation with or any sort of stake in would DARE build a vehicle that contradicts their opinions.

Forget engineering, forget bench-marking, testing, forget marketing. Forget sales. Forget all of it. Facts? More like Fake news! That 8000lb tow rating? TOTAL BS, its only got 4 cylinders, those SAE standards mean nothing! So what if it has better geometries than a JLUR? It will be worth $5k in a year! I know so! I'm an expert!!!!!!! Air suspension breaks down if you look at it wrong! Independent suspension will get stuck on a gravel road! I know so!

EXPEDITION PORTAL LAND ROVER RAGE THREAD EXPERTS are much smarter than anyone working at JLR ever will be. Says who? Says them! The only people who matter!

I'm now going to log back out of ExPo and have fun driving my Rover across the WABDR. I'm sure the keyboard warriors will still be at their screens if/when I'm back.

 

[mpinco]

Actually the tow rating is no where near advertised when backing into it from a max tongue weight. Same as LR3/4 where LRs hitch was 550lbs even as they advertised 7700 lbs towing capacity. Most camper trailer tongue weights are dry and understated, typically running in the 800-1000 lb range. Realistically max towing is in the 5500 to 6500 range. Not a criticism, just reality.

 

[Blaise]

"actually"

"realistically"

"just reality"

J2807_202002: Performance Requirements for Determining Tow-Vehicle Gross Combination Weight Rating and Trailer Weight Rating - SAE International

This document establishes minimum performance criteria at GCWR and calculation methodology to determine tow-vehicle TWR for passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, and trucks. This includes all vehicles up to 14000 pounds GVWR.

www.sae.org

Seriously dude, your opinions and napkin calculations don't hold a candle to a testing standard. Let the experts do their jobs. It's a good thing vehicle R&D (which is my career!) doesn't take into account what casual observers post on the internet.

Ever heard of Dunning-Kruger? Just because you know how to calculate a 10-15% ratio of total trailer weight does not make you an expert in vehicle dynamics.

 

[Carson G]

Actually the tow rating is no where near advertised when backing into it from a max tongue weight. Same as LR3/4 where LRs hitch was 550lbs even as they advertised 7700 lbs towing capacity. Most camper trailer tongue weights are dry and understated, typically running in the 800-1000 lb range. Realistically max towing is in the 5500 to 6500 range. Not a criticism, just reality.

The newer hitch is rated at 770lbs.

 

[JeepColorado]

Please do it. If there's anything this thread has proven it's that there are about a dozen people who cannot sleep at night because they are so enraged that HOW DARE a company which they have NO affiliation with or any sort of stake in would DARE build a vehicle that contradicts their opinions.

Forget engineering, forget bench-marking, testing, forget marketing. Forget sales. Forget all of it. Facts? More like Fake news! That 8000lb tow rating? TOTAL BS, its only got 4 cylinders, those SAE standards mean nothing! So what if it has better geometries than a JLUR? It will be worth $5k in a year! I know so! I'm an expert!!!!!!! Air suspension breaks down if you look at it wrong! Independent suspension will get stuck on a gravel road! I know so!

EXPEDITION PORTAL LAND ROVER RAGE THREAD EXPERTS are much smarter than anyone working at JLR ever will be. Says who? Says them! The only people who matter!

I'm now going to log back out of ExPo and have fun driving my Rover across the WABDR. I'm sure the keyboard warriors will still be at their screens if/when I'm back.

You are so right- marketing, designers, engineers, never misjudge consumer sentiment- they should always just be trusted and us as enthusiast should never question them!

Have a safe trip!!!!

 

[Blaise]

"Enthusiasts" aka consumers with a keyboard have no say in this. You can question all you want, you still have only two options:

Buy it, or don't.

You aren't gonna buy one, so that's the end of it. Why is this taking hundreds of pages?

 

[mpinco]

The newer hitch is rated at 770lbs.

Yup, which puts the realistic towing capacity in the 5500-6500 range depending on margining. Still good.

 

[mpinco]

"actually"

"realistically"

"just reality"

J2807_202002: Performance Requirements for Determining Tow-Vehicle Gross Combination Weight Rating and Trailer Weight Rating - SAE International

This document establishes minimum performance criteria at GCWR and calculation methodology to determine tow-vehicle TWR for passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, and trucks. This includes all vehicles up to 14000 pounds GVWR.

www.sae.org

Seriously dude, your opinions and napkin calculations don't hold a candle to a testing standard. Let the experts do their jobs. It's a good thing vehicle R&D (which is my career!) doesn't take into account what casual observers post on the internet.

Ever heard of Dunning-Kruger? Just because you know how to calculate a 10-15% ratio of total trailer weight does not make you an expert in vehicle dynamics.

You're sounding like dreadlocks.......

There are 'experts' then there is common sense.

 

[XJLI]

You are so right- marketing, designers, engineers, never misjudge consumer sentiment- they should always just be trusted and us as enthusiast should never question them!

Have a safe trip!!!!

The Aztec would sell like crazy if it was released brand new right now. AWD, decent ground clearance, cheap cost of entry, AND A BUILT IN TENT! It’s an overlanding wet dream.

 

[JeepColorado]

"Enthusiasts" aka consumers with a keyboard have no say in this. You can question all you want, you still have only two options:

Buy it, or don't.

You aren't gonna buy one, so that's the end of it. Why is this taking hundreds of pages?

You really don't think companies monitor consumer sentiment and alter their products accordingly? Social Media, forums such as this, now more than ever have influence in product feedback. I thought the LR crowd were the ones for technology?

You also have no idea what I'd buy, I've stated numerous times on here that I'd consider the Defender in a few years assuming they prove the reliability. I don't need more luxury than a top spec Rubicon affords, but there'll be a day when I'm older and I just want to stick to the main gravel forest service roads etc... that that'll change- a LR that's been proven reliable could sound about right by then. Or if the wife and I ever got tired of getting deep back in the woods and wanted to tow a camper to some more pedestrian spots- I could see doing that in a LR.

 

[mpinco]

Case in point. Lance spec's their 2375 TT at 600 lbs tongue weight for a 5030 lb dry weight.

Most actual campers delivered are running 800-1000 lb tongue weight. I run a 2375 and checked the actual vs spec. I'm at 900 with my rhino hitch equiped LR4.

 

[Blaise]

Yup, which puts the realistic towing capacity in the 5500-6500 range depending on margining. Still good.

Do you think engineers don't understand how to compute margins? Seriously? Have you ever done any analysis? Did you read the spec?

Engineering is not based on common sense. They use 'math' and 'science.'

Can you image being in a Design review:

Engineering Lead:" "Here's the structural and thermal analysis that we performed and the documented validation testing we did"

mpinco: yea, common sense says that's BS. Also you cant use a 4 cylinder. Did you know the tongue weight on some campers are higher than listed?

Stay in your lane dude.

 

[mpinco]

Do you think engineers don't understand how to compute margins? Seriously? Have you ever done any analysis? Did you read the spec?

Engineering is not based on common sense. They use 'math' and 'science.'

Can you image being in a Design review:

Engineering Lead:" "Here's the structural and thermal analysis that we performed and the documented validation testing we did"

mpinco: yea, common sense says that's BS. Also you cant use a 4 cylinder. Did you know the tongue weight on some campers are higher than listed?

Been there. Done that. I'm sure LR applied that process to their product spec. Well, derate again.

It's called derating to less than spec. Ask your legal dept.

Just derate and work below specs. Realize that your actual may be much more than the manufacturers 'spec'.