New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[JackW]

Some of us don't care as much about "image" as others.

This.. I have two "real" Land Rovers - 1966 & 1967 Series IIA's, a Defender 90 diesel, and a TDV6 Discovery 5. I like the new Defender - especially the interior - and think that it will be a great long distance usable truck. I just hate that they aren't offering the diesel engine in the 110. I really like going Atlanta to upstate New York on 1-1/2 tanks of fuel ($80). Having to think about giving up all that torque to get a 110 is all that is keeping me from placing an order now. The other option is keeping the D5 and adding a few accessories. I was eyeballing the Trek truck at my local dealer the other day. The rock sliders and roof rack look pretty good

 

[mpinco]

Realistically my D1 has been very reliable with only a few issues at 167K miles. The LR4 has had a few issues such as viscous fan, water pump and EAS compressor in 80K miles or half the miles. While any one component of the new LR's IS more reliable, the sheer increase in the number of components results in on-par reliability - Reliability Engineering 101.

I think the issue is that people have various perception of 'roots' for a vehicle that was primarily a utility truck and is now a up-market next-gen LR4. Utility has its own set of unique requirements such as simplicity, maintainability and repairability. I'm sure the new Luxury Defender will do well within the JD Powers short 3 year dependability rating (leveraged by manufacturers for marketing) and be no better than current gen LR3/4/RRS's beyond 3 years.

 

[nickw]

This.. I have two "real" Land Rovers - 1966 & 1967 Series IIA's, a Defender 90 diesel, and a TDV6 Discovery 5. I like the new Defender - especially the interior - and think that it will be a great long distance usable truck. I just hate that they aren't offering the diesel engine in the 110. I really like going Atlanta to upstate New York on 1-1/2 tanks of fuel ($80). Having to think about giving up all that torque to get a 110 is all that is keeping me from placing an order now. The other option is keeping the D5 and adding a few accessories. I was eyeballing the Trek truck at my local dealer the other day. The rock sliders and roof rack look pretty good

I think you'll be surprised by the engine. I'll caveat it by saying I obviously have not driven it, but I've owned several diesels over the years and the small displacement turbo gas engines, in many cases, have very sim torque spread from low RPM. The 2.3 Ecoboost in my Ranger blows me away and has more torque at lower RPM than many diesels did just a few years back.

It's not as instant and has slightly different characteristics, but dont write them off!

 

[JackW]

I test drove a 2020 Velar with the 4 cylinder gasoline powered Ingenium engine and it wasn't too bad. It was hard to tell much on a short test drive but it didn't have the torque of the TDV6 - it's hard to match 450 ft-lbs of torque. I was really looking forward to driving the Ingenium six cylinder diesel the rest of the world is supposed to be getting.

 

[Peter_n_Margaret]

Springs only sag if designed or fabricated incorrectly. Proper one will last forever.

These springs were not sagged. But they were worn out.
The vehicle had done 330,000km in 9 years as a tour bus (before I bought it and turned it into a motorhome). Pretty much all of that 330,000km was done on gravel roads and the grit grinds away the leaf above the end of each leaf below it. This does not happen to the front ones, only the rears that spend their life in the dust and dirt.
I reckon that wear step is a significant weakness.
I replaced them with new ones.

The rust is because they have been hanging on a wall for the last 15 years.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

 

[sg1]

I neither love nor hate the new Defender. It is just a car after all. For me it is very obvious for whom it is a great choice and who should stay away from it.
If you live quite close to a Jaguar Land Rover dealer, are fairly affluent and if your "overlanding" consists of a few weekends or perhaps even a week of offroading then you are a perfect Defender customer. It looks cool, not everybody has one, it will be fairly capable (if all the little electronic helpers work) and has enough payload and room for a lot of gear.
If you live in a rural area far away from the next dealer and/or if you plan to spend more than a few days South of the border you should look for another truck. There are basically no dealers in Latin America or outside the urban areas even in North America. With all the sophisticated electronics and other systems anyone working on a new Defender will need special tools and diagnostic systems. I don't think a general mechanic will be able to do more than change oil or brake pads even if he has the parts. And parts availability can be a problem abroad. In my 5 years on the Panamericana I have met a lot of travelers with Defenders (I never saw a traveller with a Discovery though) who waited for weeks to get parts. Because the old Defender is technically fairly simple they could at least find somebody to install the parts once they arrived. Good luck with the new Defender.
Remember Jaguar Land Rover is just an up market brand of Tata. For them it makes no sense to have Land Rover design another simple 4wd for the 3rd world. Tata has plenty of those. Volkswagen isn't using their Audi or Porsche brand to design utility vehicles either.
Summary. The new Defender is an interesting SUV for the market it was designed for: The affluent upscale outdoor enthusiasts in major urban centers.

 

[DieselRanger]

i Think I know what ppl don’t like about the new defender or Land Rover or basically any new 4x4,
It’s not the capabilities it’s the fact that it can’t be field repaired.

the lr4 that was with us did great, if it had better tires it would of made everything at first try.

That may be true, but I believe the amount of engineering, followed by modeling, followed by real-world testing in design and development of Rovers of the most recent generation is producing vehicles that are more durable, rugged, and suited to purpose than previous generations, so they are less likely to *need* field repair in the first place.

The Discovery 5 had over one million km of real-world testing all over the world under its tires before the reveal. Same with the new Defender, and on both vehicles that testing continues.

The things that broke on earlier generations don't break in the same way, or as early/often as they used to. Can you turn a new D5 or Defender into a rock crawler? With enough money and time, probably, but that's not what they were designed to do. Do things like air suspension require some inspection and preventive maintenance over time? Yep, but other things require *less* attention because they just last longer and are engineered better. Modern engines are a great example - you no longer need to "tune up" modern engines for altitude or load.

Bottom line, no matter what you drive, if something breaks because it was worn when you go out, then you failed to prepare and pre-inspect properly, and you put yourself and your companions at risk unnecessarily. If something in good repair breaks despite all of your best efforts to prepare, you likely made a mistake or exceeded the vehicle's capabilities, which is also your fault, not the vehicle's. Some may think that's "fun" and part of the challenge, but I do not - my adrenal gland gets a workout in other ways.

It seems to me the criticism of the Defender lies with those who feel they need one that does off-the-lot what older Defenders do after thousands of dollars in modifications. Mostly because those vehicles are the only ones they've ever seen in the wild. Or, they want a used Jeep Wrangler - i.e., an "inexpensive" canvas on which to create their own rig. That's not the Defender, and it never was.

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[DieselRanger]

Wrong. Springs should be designed for infinite life. It is simple first year engineering school level stuff.

Metal fatigue - how do it work?

Simple first-year engineering school stuff. It's called materials science, and physics. Entropy much?



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[mpinco]

I neither love nor hate the new Defender. It is just a car after all. For me it is very obvious for whom it is a great choice and who should stay away from it.
If you live quite close to a Jaguar Land Rover dealer, are fairly affluent and if your "overlanding" consists of a few weekends or perhaps even a week of offroading then you are a perfect Defender customer. It looks cool, not everybody has one, it will be fairly capable (if all the little electronic helpers work) and has enough payload and room for a lot of gear.
If you live in a rural area far away from the next dealer and/or if you plan to spend more than a few days South of the border you should look for another truck. There are basically no dealers in Latin America or outside the urban areas even in North America. With all the sophisticated electronics and other systems anyone working on a new Defender will need special tools and diagnostic systems. I don't think a general mechanic will be able to do more than change oil or brake pads even if he has the parts. And parts availability can be a problem abroad. In my 5 years on the Panamericana I have met a lot of travelers with Defenders (I never saw a traveller with a Discovery though) who waited for weeks to get parts. Because the old Defender is technically fairly simple they could at least find somebody to install the parts once they arrived. Good luck with the new Defender.
Remember Jaguar Land Rover is just an up market brand of Tata. For them it makes no sense to have Land Rover design another simple 4wd for the 3rd world. Tata has plenty of those. Volkswagen isn't using their Audi or Porsche brand to design utility vehicles either.
Summary. The new Defender is an interesting SUV for the market it was designed for: The affluent upscale outdoor enthusiasts in major urban centers.

Agreed. One aspect I picked up on early in my LR acquisitions is that the primary location of LR's was NJ, TX, CA and WA. All large urban areas. Once you are outside those locations Land Rover representation / dealers fall off a cliff. There are no dealers in the upper Midwest (MT, ND, SD, WY, Central/Western KS) or AK.

LR has pretty much become a high population / urban area product. Which if you think about it is a primary reason the new Defender is slotted as Luxury/Urban.

 

[Pilat]

Agreed. One aspect I picked up on early in my LR acquisitions is that the primary location of LR's was NJ, TX, CA and WA. All large urban areas. Once you are outside those locations Land Rover representation / dealers fall off a cliff. There are no dealers in the upper Midwest (MT, ND, SD, WY, Central/Western KS) or AK.

LR has pretty much become a high population / urban area product. Which if you think about it is a primary reason the new Defender is slotted as Luxury/Urban.

Does land rover slot it as "Luxury/Urban"? It doesn't seem so to me. In fact, they have the entire Range Rover range for that.

 

[Todd780]

Does land rover slot it as "Luxury/Urban"? It doesn't seem so to me. In fact, they have the entire Range Rover range for that.

I think that is why some people hate how the new Defender turned out. It seems like it's just another Range Rover.

 

[Pilat]

I think that is why some people hate how the new Defender turned out. It seems like it's just another Range Rover.

Granted, it is not as poor a performer as the old one was overall compared to other offerings, and it is much more comfortable to drive and live with than the old one, but we're talking a 2020 model; Technology has allowed us to make something better than was possible 60 years ago.

Hell, it was such a poor performer that even basic Land Rovers that utilised modern tech surpassed the old one decades ago. And the old one was so unsafe it wasn't even possible to continue with it.


But if people prefer old-tech, they can either buy an old Defender, a Series LR, or if they want new, they can buy a brand new Wrangler if they want to build it into a rock crawler or if they simply prefer poor performance in general without modifications (and very small towing and loading capabilities).

 

[EricTyrrell]

Granted, it is not as poor a performer as the old one was overall compared to other offerings, and it is much more comfortable to drive and live with than the old one, but we're talking a 2020 model; Technology has allowed us to make something better than was possible 60 years ago.

Hell, it was such a poor performer that even basic Land Rovers that utilised modern tech surpassed the old one decades ago. And the old one was so unsafe it wasn't even possible to continue with it.


But if people prefer old-tech, they can either buy an old Defender, a Series LR, or if they want new, they can buy a brand new Wrangler if they want to build it into a rock crawler or if they simply prefer poor performance in general without modifications (and very small towing and loading capabilities).

The space between Series/Defender and Wrangler JL or luxury Defender is massive. A genuine modern Defender would slot somewhere between. The Land Cruiser and Jeep, both extremely similar, evolved into what we have today (70 Series, JL), but was differentiated by capability and capacity. Imagine if the Defender had evolved along the same lines.

 

[Pilat]

So what if the "space between" them are huge? You are one of the people who wants it to be a carbon copy of wrangler to the extent you want solid front frigging axles.

 

[EricTyrrell]

So I take it your main issue with the vehicle is styling and not capability? Because I'd argue that the new Defender is more capable and reliable than all D1's except for Don Happel's convertible D1 rock crawler. Also, what kind of MINI? An original or a BMW Mini?

Main issues are yes, styling; the Defender is an icon of automotive design, that was thrown in the trash.

I have concerns about its capability, but we don't need to go there again. I wouldn't discount comparison to mildly modified classics, as simplicity was a feature, and simplicity allows ease of modification. A rear locker is common, and not difficult or expensive; a natural result of the classic platform.

Another main concern is the lack of pickup, which severely restricts and reflects the lack of focus on utility; and soft top variants, which greatly reduces its fun/leisure factor.

Finally, it's the combination of unreliability, complexity, and off-grid intentions; a lethal combination that they have long struggled to execute.

The MINI is a 2018 Countryman. Quite simply, it is the only MINI that will fit child-seats.