New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[REDROVER]

I like purpose built vehicles,
old defender was purpose built,
Most of my other vehicle are purpose built,
I don’t defend new defender because it’s a neutral vehicle, it won’t be good at one thing, it will be ok at everything,
Does it make sense what I am trying to say ?
My Hummers suck on the road, but they are made strictly for off road,
That’s purpose built,
My Tacoma is neutral vehicle, it’s ok at everything but. But not the best at one thing.


Independent suspension is fine, if it’s heavy duty build.
but when the components are not adequately Made then solid axle becomes superior.

 

[REDROVER]

But that independent suspension argument vs sold axle is a joke, seriously.

Tell
Me this, if the fuel pump goes out on the new defender, can you change that in the middle of nowhere? Hell no,
Worry about ******** like that,
Suspension will get you home regardless if independent or sold.

over the last 15 years that I have been venturing out, I have seen way to many pump failures , and sensor failures that will definitely get u stranded,
The best vehicle is the one that can be field repaired.

 

[Box Rocket]

I agree with the field repair-able philosophy. Why couldn't you change the fuel pump in the field on the Defender? Worst case is that it's in the tank and you have to drop the tank to get to it. Pain in the butt but still doable in the field. Fortunately the in-tank pump on my Land Cruiser has an access panel on the top of the tank that can be accessed under the second row seats. Field repair of a fuel pump is quite possible.

Regardless of the vehicle you own, it's good to learn all you can about repairing it so you can address issues in the field. Computer and electronic issues common on modern vehicles are the bane of those you travel "off-grid". To many interdependent systems that go down in one fails.

 

[Pilat]

Wrangler starts at $28,295. The D90 starts at $65K as a FE but probably $49K after initial production. That's +75% premium for the D90 with coils. Now we can all option out both to the point that the Wrangler has Dana 44's front and rear while the D90 has air suspension. The Wrangler Rubicon is $39,970 while the FE with air suspension is $65K or 63% more. Sure, apples and oranges but in the end I suspect most Rubicons price out at $55K while most D90's will price out at $70K-$75K, still a near +40% delta. But not every Wrangler is a Rubicon and not every D90 will be a FE or optioned with air suspension and lockers. The volume will be driven by the lower 1/3rd of the price range which is a significant price difference.

That said, I still think many are "Whistling past the graveyard" on the ability of potential customers to customize their vehicle. That 'feature' will have a significant impact on sales volumes. With the Jeep that can be accomplished over the years and driven by the buyers budget. With the LR some of those decisions have to be made upfront as aftermarket or retrofit is limited. As an example you are not going to be able to add air suspension to a entry level Defender coiler.

Weird, it is as if the only parameter that matters to some people are "cheap"; Cheap in price, cheap to build, cheap to buy, cheap to modify (including buying used dana axles and whatnot).
It's as if you guys wanted to "modernise" the Defender only in the sense that you wanted them to build it cheaper and offer it at the same price point as the base Wrangler.

 

[mpinco]

As for field repair, I've always thought of it this way. If a fuel pump fails on my DI I'm usually with someone and we can return the next day or so, pop the fuel pump access panel in the rear floor, swap and be back on the trail. Same with most of the components on the DI. My LR4? Not so much but maybe. The MHEV engine in the new Luxury Defender? Forget it.

 

[mpinco]

Weird, it is as if the only parameter that matters to some people are "cheap"; Cheap in price, cheap to build, cheap to buy, cheap to modify (including buying used dana axles and whatnot).
It's as if you guys wanted to "modernise" the Defender only in the sense that you wanted them to build it cheaper and offer it at the same price point as the base Wrangler.

Has nothing to do with cheap. It has everything to do with cost of ownership upfront and long term. Simple econ101. Some people's personal budgets don't support $70K upfront so a lower entry point makes sense such that a vehicle can be personalized over time.

 

[nickw]

As for field repair, I've always thought of it this way. If a fuel pump fails on my DI I'm usually with someone and we can return the next day or so, pop the fuel pump access panel in the rear floor, swap and be back on the trail. Same with most of the components on the DI. My LR4? Not so much but maybe. The MHEV engine in the new Luxury Defender? Forget it.

I'm guessing 95% of vehicles don't allow for a field repaired fuel pumps, so the new Defender is not unique in that regard.

I've never had a fuel pump go bad in my 40 yrs, now that I said that out loud, I am sure I jinxed myself.

Guys same the same thing and have the same worries on the EFI on motos. Between the 10 or so of us that ride enduro on a regular basis, way off the beaten path in technical terrain, nobody has had any problems in the last 5 years than I can remember.

Problems happen, but on the sliding scale of importance, I think fuel pumps are low on the list for modern rigs.

 

[mpinco]

I've already had to replace the fuel pump on my DI. When if failed it was dead, not a slow fail. Mileage? Probably in the 100K miles range so not common but over the years pumps have been on the high end of the occurrence range. I guess if you get rid of a vehicle before 50K miles then field repair is a minor issue. Maybe I just keep my vehicles too long ...

 

[Pilat]

Has nothing to do with cheap. It has everything to do with cost of ownership upfront and long term. Simple econ101. Some people's personal budgets don't support $70K upfront so a lower entry point makes sense such that a vehicle can be personalized over time.

As I said: Cheap to build. Cheap to buy. Cheap to modify.

 

[mpinco]

As I said: Cheap to build. Cheap to buy. Cheap to modify.

That's a good description of the Jeep Cherokee favored by the younger generation. Just down the street they have probably 3 of the 2nd generation. They have fun with them. In fact I would say that is the next collectible vehicle. Now, when they become older and their family grows, what do you think they will buy? What they are familiar with? The vehicle of their youth? One that they can modify within their growing family budget? It's not rocket science.

Edit add: JLR admitted years ago that their clients were getting too old. That not enough of the younger generation were buyers and that they were worried about long term viability.

 

[Pilat]

That's a good description of the Jeep Cherokee favored by the younger generation. Just down the street they have probably 3 of the 2nd generation. They have fun with them. In fact I would say that is the next collectible vehicle. Now, when they become older and their family grows, what do you think they will buy? What they are familiar with? The vehicle of their youth? One that they can modify within their growing family budget? It's not rocket science.

Again: You want it cheap as. They can still get their Jeep Cherokee. But keep in mind that the Cherokee is not really a global vehicle either, although perhaps more so than the Wrangler. LR, unlike Jeep, is not a US company with its focus on its home market. It's a European country with the global market place in mind. But if the young families in your neighbourhood like the Cherokee, no one is taking it away from them, regardless of what Land Rover does or does not do.

But, yes, it is becoming more and more clear that you basically wanted the same old - only "updated" to cheaper production methods so it can be sold cheaper. I can't even see the point of the notion that Land Rover needs to fill the niche of "extremely cheap" (in all senses of the word). When did they fill that niche the last time? Why the clamouring for something the price of a small, cheap hatchback, but with the comfort and safety of the 1950s? (Wrangler springs to mind with its 1 star safety rating).

 

[mpinco]

Again: You want it cheap as. They can still get their Jeep Cherokee. But keep in mind that the Cherokee is not really a global vehicle either, although perhaps more so than the Wrangler. LR, unlike Jeep, is not a US company with its focus on its home market. It's a European country with the global market place in mind. But if the young families in your neighbourhood like the Cherokee, no one is taking it away from them, regardless of what Land Rover does or does not do.

But, yes, it is becoming more and more clear that you basically wanted the same old - only "updated" to cheaper production methods so it can be sold cheaper. I can't even see the point of the notion that Land Rover needs to fill the niche of "extremely cheap" (in all senses of the word). When did they fill that niche the last time? Why the clamouring for something the price of a small, cheap hatchback, but with the comfort and safety of the 1950s? (Wrangler springs to mind with its 1 star safety rating).

You seem to think low cost, cheap as you refer to it, is a negative. LR is no longer a global vehicle. Why is that? Was it because they retreated upmarket? Is that "upmarket" mainly the older generation? Demographics can be your future if you let it.

 

[Box Rocket]

What does "global vehicle" have to do with it? Very few actually need a vehicle with global support. And there's something to be said for simplicity in the case of repairs needed in remote villages in many parts of the world for those to do travel beyond their own borders. Good luck finding a bush mechanic with the ability to repair the new electrical systems in the LR (and many other vehicles for that matter). Makes reliability of the systems paramount, not exactly an area where LR has a stellar reputation.

 

[Pilat]

What does "global vehicle" have to do with it? Very few actually need a vehicle with global support. And there's something to be said for simplicity in the case of repairs needed in remote villages in many parts of the world for those to do travel beyond their own borders. Good luck finding a bush mechanic with the ability to repair the new electrical systems in the LR (and many other vehicles for that matter). Makes reliability of the systems paramount, not exactly an area where LR has a stellar reputation.

LOL, a "global vehicle" means a vehicle designed to be sold everywhere in the world without problems. Designed to thread the needle of various regulations. Not something that can mostly only be sold in the home market.
There is a reason the Wrangler doesn't sell much outside of its home market. It is unsafe to the extent that it is not allowed to be sold in all countries, and those that do allow, still doesn't see much sales. It being unsafe and basically aimed at 1) Wannabe Barbies, 2) Bros, and 3) Rock crawlers, means that there isn't even a big market in the US, but much bigger than there are in the rest of the world. THe fact that it doesn't have a roof etc. also mean it is not very likely to be used by the average purchaser especially if it's not in some warm place and they really care about being seen (or are diehard rock crawlers).

Edit: I am not sure the reputation of Jeep's reliability is "stellar" either.

 

[mpinco]

LOL on Jeep safety, wannabe customers and only sold in warm climates. Here in Colorado it is one of the most numerous vehicles on the road. You know, snow country, baby it's cold outside, drop my hardtop on for winter, pull it off in the summer, driven by people of all professions and backgrounds. The other? Subaru which is probably why I see several LR2's. In any case JLR has retreated upmarket which is their choice.