New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[mpinco]

At 67 idiotic pages now, I think it's time for a poll of how many hours everyone has spent driving off pavement or what their actual experience is "doing" and "going" not just reading and theorizing. I've put about 500,000 miles on three Land Rovers I still own and have used bridging ladders, shovels, camp stoves, air compressors, and beer at least an average of several full weeks a year, summer and winter, since 1999 when it started while using a 1982 Volvo 240.

When did camping become 'overlanding' and when did solid-axle vs IS even become a check-list item for vehicle choice?

Now about "beer at least an average of several full weeks a year" ..........

 

[mpinco]

Early in Gerry McGovern's time at LR they made a product direction choice of moving upscale with the Luxury Defender and with the latest news, also maybe downscale into Mini Countryman like products. As he has been described he is a 'modernist' of the DC100 school of thought that began a decade ago. The inspiration has roots in the 70's. As highlighted by the chart showing Discovery/LR3/LR4 volumes over decades LR's volume in the 'Discovery' segment declined significantly after the DI/DII days as they moved further upmarket, into a recession. If history repeats JLR will see a 5th owner (or is it 6th?) in their future. And as highlighted by the many previous vehicles of British origin a large aftermarket will continue on in support of our choices.

 

[REDROVER]

My 80 series cruiser was solid axle, i LOVED it
Never irregular tire wear issue,
My Tacoma is IFS and having hell of a hard time with that issue, only 42.000 miles,
Capability factor is basically the same as far as independent or solid, but complexity is 100% more.
But that’s not a deal breaker on the new defender,
There are other way way more complex engineering in that vehicle that you should worry.

 

[nickw]

My 80 series cruiser was solid axle, i LOVED it
Never irregular tire wear issue,
My Tacoma is IFS and having hell of a hard time with that issue, only 42.000 miles,
Capability factor is basically the same as far as independent or solid, but complexity is 100% more.
But that’s not a deal breaker on the new defender,
There are other way way more complex engineering in that vehicle that you should worry.

Judging by the list of vehicles you own I'm surprised you are not piping up about and/or defending (no pun intended) the new Defender's choice of IFS/IRS.

 

[DieselRanger]

What blows me away is that people are still arguing over ... opinions.

You're allowed to think the Defender is great... or not.

I've tried to have a rational, technical discussion about the choices made for the Defender in this and the last several threads. I personally think the modern rover is a great solution, which is why I own one. That's my opinion. If you don't like it, it's OK. Don't buy one. Yet here we are arguing over what the 'best' solution is.

I created the thread to be a sink for the irrational, frothy hate, so that some day, when Defenders are waiting in lines on Poison Spider Mesa and Hell's Revenge, and Defender drivers in Poughkeepsie Gulch are wondering where all the Jeeps went, we can have threads that contain calm, rational discussions about the merits of various upgrades and virtual campfire stories about overlanding from Prudhoe Bay to Ushuaia and Vienna to Vladivostok.

 

[nickw]

The point is not that the new Defender is "bad". It will be lovely on road and pretty good off road. The problem is that Land Rover had the opportunity to make a vehicle that was "great" off road, it could have set a new bar while being good on road. They could have also made it affordable. They did not, because they have their priorities reversed.

Now, why does this matter? If they had made this model with a new level of off road capability, beyond anything out there, it would have made the brand famous "again" for off road prowess. It would have brought people in in droves to buy their other models. The first thing they should have been doing is having vehicles entered into serious off road competitions and winning in stock form. But...they don't understand this and the people working there do not have the experience to understand it. All they have done is make a Disco 5 with a more square body and room for larger tires, which is what I said they would do years ago.

Define "great" offroad.

I don't understand the comments about price, it's not much more than a comparable Jeep and less than Land Cruiser. Couple modest builds how I'd build em, not all inclusive but comparable IMO.....

 

[DieselRanger]

Sure. They will sell fine, I'm sure. But they had the chance to make the company grow a lot. The best this will do is recover some of their recent losses. I think what bugs people the most is they have lost the vision that started the company.

Their job is to sell vehicles at a profit. Not sure how they would grow "a lot" selling vehicles that are built to be driven off-road over anything anywhere that suck to drive on-road the other 99.9% of their lives. Instead they built a vehicle that can go offroad on 99.9% of trails and still be fantastic to daily drive for 99% of drivers who would choose them.

Jeep sells less than 250K Wranglers per year in the US. The Wrangler isn't offered in China, but it sells less than 10K per year in all of Europe. The market for this kind of vehicle isn't big. Toyota still sells more Camry's in one month in an auto economy that can't get enough SUVs, and Ford destroys them in F-Series sales - close to a million every year in the US alone.

On the other hand, over a million luxury SUVs are sold worldwide every year, almost half of those are in the US alone, and luxury SUVs are extremely profitable. Land Rover's thing has been luxury SUVs that are extremely capable off-road - that's their niche, always has been in the US, their biggest market - even the Defender when it was offered in the US was (poorly) marketed as an upmarket off-roader / fun machine. That's their differentiator - in fact, their 1-800 number was 1-800-FINE-4WD. If they went way downmarket to utilitarian toy like the Wrangler is (never mind Wranglers now cross past the $50K mark easily), they would fail to differentiate themselves against the cornerstone of that segment, and likely would lose money in the process - as they did in the 1990s. Today's equivalent price for a new 1997 Defender reasonably optioned at $34,000 is over $54,000 today. You're telling me you would pay $54,000 for a 2019 version of a 1997 Defender?

As others have said, I'm sorry it doesn't meet with some people's romanticized notions of what a Defender should be. Agree to disagree.

 

[leeleatherwood]

Define "great" offroad.

I don't understand the comments about price, it's not much more than a comparable Jeep and less than Land Cruiser. Couple modest builds how I'd build em, not all inclusive but comparable IMO.....

View attachment 555495View attachment 555496

When you compare these two vehicles with these prices, honestly the Defender is a steal. (probably more like the Wrangler is VASTLY overpriced)

The Wranger's costs are too high for what you get compared to the Defender. The Defender has a MUCH nicer interior, much higher tech, much more amenities, etc. IFS/IRS suspension probably costs more to produce than solid axle as well. And the Defender surely will have much better build quality and refinement than the Wrangler too.

If you ignore the capabilities of each, and judge soley by "what your money is actually buying", the Defender seems like the obvious choice, you simply get a much nicer, higher tech and refined product for the dollar.


Yes, you may believe solid axle is better in some situations off road, you may like the looks of the Jeep, you may like the ability to take off the doors and hard top, and all of that stuff surely has some type of perceived "value", but when you look at the actual reason the Wrangler costs as much as it does, its more to do with those perceived values than it is with manufacturing, R&D, etc.


With all of that being said, I wouldn't buy a Defender... or a Wrangler.

 

[nickw]

Their job is to sell vehicles at a profit. Not sure how they would grow "a lot" selling vehicles that are built to be driven off-road over anything anywhere that suck to drive on-road the other 99.9% of their lives. Instead they built a vehicle that can go offroad on 99.9% of trails and still be fantastic to daily drive for 99% of drivers who would choose them.

Jeep sells less than 250K Wranglers per year in the US. The Wrangler isn't offered in China, but it sells less than 10K per year in all of Europe. The market for this kind of vehicle isn't big. Toyota still sells more Camry's in one month in an auto economy that can't get enough SUVs, and Ford destroys them in F-Series sales - close to a million every year in the US alone.

On the other hand, over a million luxury SUVs are sold worldwide every year, almost half of those are in the US alone, and luxury SUVs are extremely profitable. Land Rover's thing has been luxury SUVs that are extremely capable off-road - that's their niche, always has been in the US, their biggest market - even the Defender when it was offered in the US was (poorly) marketed as an upmarket off-roader / fun machine. That's their differentiator - in fact, their 1-800 number was 1-800-FINE-4WD. If they went way downmarket to utilitarian toy like the Wrangler is (never mind Wranglers now cross past the $50K mark easily), they would fail to differentiate themselves against the cornerstone of that segment, and likely would lose money in the process - as they did in the 1990s. Today's equivalent price for a new 1997 Defender reasonably optioned at $34,000 is over $54,000 today. You're telling me you would pay $54,000 for a 2019 version of a 1997 Defender?

As others have said, I'm sorry it doesn't meet with some people's romanticized notions of what a Defender should be. Agree to disagree.

Well said.

I had a buddy with a late 90's D90, 32" tires, manual trans....my 1978 FJ40 with similar tires drove every bit as good with less noise. He sold it after a few months and bought a LR4 and never looked back. It looked *awesome*, but after that, I was definitely in the space of it's a cool "heritage" 4x4 for the weekends but not something I could live with for long journey. A FJ60 (an newer) Toyota was light years ahead of the Defenders as far as comfort. I guess my point is sim to yours, paying $54k for technology that is probably closer to the late 70's / early 80's.

 

[Jwestpro]

When did camping become 'overlanding' and when did solid-axle vs IS even become a check-list item for vehicle choice?

Now about "beer at least an average of several full weeks a year" ..........

Well, when I see other videos from "overlanding" trips, they are, like mine, sleeping somewhere.....thus camping. Camping is not inherently overlanding but overlanding requires camping in my book, otherwise it's just a day trip to play somewhere which I would instead call "off roading" Clear as mud yet?

 

[Jwestpro]

I don't understand the comments about price, it's not much more than a comparable Jeep and less than Land Cruiser

Who the hell wants a base crapass budget Defender though? (sarcasm, but then I'd definitely be the sucker for the 100% optioned version) My test build online was basically $90k. I do see what you mean about the value level though at the entry price compared to the Jeep.

 

[Jwestpro]

2 days before I left for a 3 month assignment in Mexico I was doing this

I don't understand how you survived that snow with a solid axle, must be all the cooking and comfortable tent that kept you going

 

[nickw]

Who the hell wants a base crapass budget Defender though? (sarcasm, but then I'd definitely be the sucker for the 100% optioned version) My test build online was basically $90k. I do see what you mean about the value level though at the entry price compared to the Jeep.

100% option Defender doesn't compare well with a Jeep so was trying to keep things like for like. With that said, don't many of the new models have "first edition" premiums associated with them. I noticed the D90 "first edition" starts at $65k while the base 110 is $49k. I'm guessing once they hit the shores the base D90 is going be in the mid $40's putting it directly in line with the Jeep but ****** do I know...

 

[mpinco]

100% option Defender doesn't compare well with a Jeep so was trying to keep things like for like. With that said, don't many of the new models have "first edition" premiums associated with them. I noticed the D90 "first edition" starts at $65k while the base 110 is $49k. I'm guessing once they hit the shores the base D90 is going be in the mid $40's putting it directly in line with the Jeep but ****** do I know...

Wrangler starts at $28,295. The D90 starts at $65K as a FE but probably $49K after initial production. That's +75% premium for the D90 with coils. Now we can all option out both to the point that the Wrangler has Dana 44's front and rear while the D90 has air suspension. The Wrangler Rubicon is $39,970 while the FE with air suspension is $65K or 63% more. Sure, apples and oranges but in the end I suspect most Rubicons price out at $55K while most D90's will price out at $70K-$75K, still a near +40% delta. But not every Wrangler is a Rubicon and not every D90 will be a FE or optioned with air suspension and lockers. The volume will be driven by the lower 1/3rd of the price range which is a significant price difference.

That said, I still think many are "Whistling past the graveyard" on the ability of potential customers to customize their vehicle. That 'feature' will have a significant impact on sales volumes. With the Jeep that can be accomplished over the years and driven by the buyers budget. With the LR some of those decisions have to be made upfront as aftermarket or retrofit is limited. As an example you are not going to be able to add air suspension to a entry level Defender coiler.

 

[Cruisn]

My 80 series cruiser was solid axle, i LOVED it
Never irregular tire wear issue,
My Tacoma is IFS and having hell of a hard time with that issue, only 42.000 miles,
Capability factor is basically the same as far as independent or solid, but complexity is 100% more.
But that’s not a deal breaker on the new defender,
There are other way way more complex engineering in that vehicle that you should worry.

Well get your alignment done fully loaded then. My pajero has IFS and IRS, I am well... well loaded and have zero issues with alignment or funny tyre wear.maybe a vehicle brand issue??? lol.

as for complexity, I wouldn't say its an issue. everything is tucked out of the way on ifs except the lower control arms normally. they are easy to fix. super simple really once you are used to it. plus the comfy ride.... that sweet sweeeet ride