New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[Pilat]

LOL on Jeep safety, wannabe customers and only sold in warm climates. Here in Colorado it is one of the most numerous vehicles on the road. You know, snow country, baby it's cold outside, drop my hardtop on for winter, pull it off in the summer, driven by people of all professions and backgrounds. The other? Subaru which is probably why I see several LR2's. In any case JLR has retreated upmarket which is their choice.

I said that outside the US, people tend to want a roof. And I also mentioned that Jeep is mostly focused on their home market. And that people outside the US actually care about safety. Especially if they have a young family. You think the Wrangler's 1 star safety rating is some kind of joke? Hmm.

You still seem to fail completely to even grasp the concept of a "global vehicle". What if I told that an engine needs to pass California's emissions rules to be sold in all the states of the US?. You can have an engine that is not approved for california. But then it isn't even a US-wide engine. Take that, and expand it globally.

And, really, just because you see a Wrangler everywhere you look in your home town in the US doesn't mean it is everywhere. Sheesh, if you are that unwilling to even attempt the concept of a "global vehicle", I don't really know what to tell you at this stage.

 

[Box Rocket]

LOL, a "global vehicle" means a vehicle designed to be sold everywhere in the world without problems. Designed to thread the needle of various regulations. Not something that can mostly only be sold in the home market.
There is a reason the Wrangler doesn't sell much outside of its home market. It is unsafe to the extent that it is not allowed to be sold in all countries, and those that do allow, still doesn't see much sales. It being unsafe and basically aimed at 1) Wannabe Barbies, 2) Bros, and 3) Rock crawlers, means that there isn't even a big market in the US, but much bigger than there are in the rest of the world. THe fact that it doesn't have a roof etc. also mean it is not very likely to be used by the average purchaser especially if it's not in some warm place and they really care about being seen (or are diehard rock crawlers).

Edit: I am not sure the reputation of Jeep's reliability is "stellar" either.

What would I do without you to share all this vast knowledge with me? LOL. First off, I'm well aware of what a global market vehicle is, since I drive one. I would submit that the Land Cruiser is a far more prevelant global vehicle than the LR. I'm not a Jeep fan but you really have no idea what the market demand for them is. You live somewhere where they are not common and therefore make assumptions out of ignorance. Quite the opposite of what your theory is I would say they are even more common in cold, winter climates in the US because of the 4WD system. And you apparently haven't paid attention to recent Jeep sales if you think there's not even a big market in the US. They are extremely popular and many dealers have a waiting list for the new Gladiators.

Jeep doesn't have the best historical reputation for reliability, but having owned a Land Rover, I'd purchase a Jeep before another LR.

 

[mpinco]

Looks like the Wrangler, Discovery and Land Cruiser volumes are converging in Europe .......


Jeep is growing sales worldwide.

My point is not to promote Jeep but to highlight that there are many criteria that drives sales success. Those values are transferable globally.

 

[Pilat]

What would I do without you to share all this vast knowledge with me? LOL. First off, I'm well aware of what a global market vehicle is, since I drive one. I would submit that the Land Cruiser is a far more prevelant global vehicle than the LR.

Nope. Just like Mpinco, you still don't understand what a global vehicle is.

Here, let me quote myself in the explanation to mpinco:

You still seem to fail completely to even grasp the concept of a "global vehicle". What if I told that an engine needs to pass California's emissions rules to be sold in all the states of the US?. You can have an engine that is not approved for california. But then it isn't even a US-wide engine. Take that, and expand it globally.

And, really, just because you see a Wrangler everywhere you look in your home town in the US doesn't mean it is everywhere. Sheesh, if you are that unwilling to even attempt the concept of a "global vehicle", I don't really know what to tell you at this stage.

I'm not a Jeep fan but you really have no idea what the market demand for them is. You live somewhere where they are not common and therefore make assumptions out of ignorance.

Show me how many Jeeps (Wranglers/Cherokees) are sold outside the US.

Quite the opposite of what your theory is I would say they are even more common in cold, winter climates in the US because of the 4WD system.

[My emphasis]

Read up on why that doesn't make it a "global vehicle". I never said they weren't popular in the US.

And you apparently haven't paid attention to recent Jeep sales if you think there's not even a big market in the US.

The Wrangler doesn't sell as well as many other cars in the us.

They are extremely popular and many dealers have a waiting list for the new Gladiators.

If they build less than people want, there will always be a waiting list. There is also a waiting list for Morgan cars. That doesn't mean Morgans are ubiquitous.

Jeep doesn't have the best historical reputation for reliability, but having owned a Land Rover, I'd purchase a Jeep before another LR.

You do that.

 

[Pilat]

Looks like the Wrangler, Discovery and Land Cruiser volumes are converging in Europe .......
View attachment 555702

Jeep is growing sales worldwide.

What? You mean from about 2-3000 to 6000 in the entirety of Europe? Land Cruiser is really bottoming out, and I'm not sure what to make of the Discovery, other than it rose in 2017 when the Wrangler fell and vice-versa in 2018.

 

[Box Rocket]

Read up on why that doesn't make it a "global vehicle". I never said they weren't popular in the US.

Uh, yeah you did.
you said, " means that there isn't even a big market in the US,"

So nice try. I don't know why you continue to post in this thread? Pretty sure everyone has concluded you don't know what you're talking about.

And global market vehicle.....are you saying the Land Cruiser isn't a global vehicle?

 

[mpinco]

What? You mean from about 2-3000 to 6000 in the entirety of Europe? Land Cruiser is really bottoming out, and I'm not sure what to make of the Discovery, other than it rose in 2017 when the Wrangler fell and vice-versa in 2018.

2019 is not over but Discovery has been selling at roughly 6000-8000 per year in Europe while Wrangler is at 6000-7000 per year in Europe. Sales volumes are converging. Partly due to poor D5 acceptance while Jeep has been moving to push sales higher.

As I pointed out there are many criteria on a global buyers checklist. The convergence highlights that reality. In addition today's vehicles are modular such that they can be tailored for a market and the associated requirements. They are 'platforms'.

 

[Box Rocket]

Here's some numbers for you...

Global sales for the Toyota Land Cruiser. Cumulatively since it's inception over 10 Million Land Cruisers have been sold. But let's talk more recently. 2013 showed ~400,000 Land Cruisers sold worldwide. 2014 saw 450,000 sold. 2018 was roughly 360,000 Land Cruisers sold. 2019 which isn't over yet has seen over 250,000 sold. See data here:
https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/toyota/29534066.html

Yeah it has dropped, but lets look at the Land Rover.....

in 2013 there were roughly 270,000 LR's sold worldwide across the entire product line. The Defender specifically saw just over 17,000 sold. The Discovery just shy of 46,000 sold. But even including the entire product line there were few sales by a large margin than the Land Cruiser in the same year. For 2018 across the same product line there was a total of roughly 241,000 LR's sold. Still over 100,000 short of Land Cruiser. If you add the Discovery Sport in for 2017 and 2018 as a new addition to the product line that number for 2018 it goes up to 336,000. Still short of the Land Cruiser. See Data here:

Land Rover global sales by model 2013-2019 | Statista

This statistic shows the number of Land Rover cars sold globally from 2013 to 2019, categorized by model.

www.statista.com

So sorry, don't insult yourself by claiming I don't know what a global vehicle is. Everyone knows that around the world the most widely used 4wd is a Toyota.

 

[nickw]

Here's some numbers for you...

Global sales for the Toyota Land Cruiser. Cumulatively since it's inception over 10 Million Land Cruisers have been sold. But let's talk more recently. 2013 showed ~400,000 Land Cruisers sold worldwide. 2014 saw 450,000 sold. 2018 was roughly 360,000 Land Cruisers sold. 2019 which isn't over yet has seen over 250,000 sold. See data here:
https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/toyota/29534066.html

Yeah it has dropped, but lets look at the Land Rover.....

in 2013 there were roughly 270,000 LR's sold worldwide across the entire product line. The Defender specifically saw just over 17,000 sold. The Discovery just shy of 46,000 sold. But even including the entire product line there were few sales by a large margin than the Land Cruiser in the same year. For 2018 across the same product line there was a total of roughly 241,000 LR's sold. Still over 100,000 short of Land Cruiser. If you add the Discovery Sport in for 2017 and 2018 as a new addition to the product line that number for 2018 it goes up to 336,000. Still short of the Land Cruiser. See Data here:

Land Rover global sales by model 2013-2019 | Statista

This statistic shows the number of Land Rover cars sold globally from 2013 to 2019, categorized by model.

www.statista.com

So sorry, don't insult yourself by claiming I don't know what a global vehicle is. Everyone knows that around the world the most widely used 4wd is a Toyota.

Those numbers include Prado's FWIW which I'm guessing is a large % of those figures....

 

[Box Rocket]

Those numbers include Prado's FWIW which I'm guessing is a large % of those numbers....

Can you verify that? It's entirely possible that it includes the Prado since it carries the Land Cruiser moniker, but I don't think the Prado would make up a majority of the sales. Still makes no difference. The LR numbers include ALL Land Rover vehicle models include ones like the Evoque and Freelander.

 

[nickw]

Can you verify that? It's entirely possible that it includes the Prado since it carries the Land Cruiser moniker, but I don't think the Prado would make up a majority of the sales. Still makes no difference. The LR numbers include ALL Land Rover vehicle models include ones like the Evoque and Freelander.

Fair - just pointing it out, I read it as HD Landcruiser which is where my head went.

From the link you posted at the bottom:

 

[Box Rocket]

Jaguar Land Rover has markets in 128 countries (But that includes the Jaguar brand). The Land Cruiser has markets in 170 countries. By any definition it is a "global vehicle".

Noted your above inclusion of the Prado models. However, what you posted is just showing the overview of available models over lifespan of the brand, but it's probably safe to assume the Prado is included in the sales numbers because of the Land Cruiser moniker even though they are outside the HD product line.

 

[Pilat]

Uh, yeah you did.
you said, " means that there isn't even a big market in the US,"

But there isn't compared to other vehicles. What I said was that although the market is bigger in the US (it is), it is very much smaller than outside the IS:

Read the things I have posted in context. You failed to grasp the concept of a "global vehicle", and doubled down on that ignorance by mentioning how many people in Colorado drives Wranglers.

So nice try. I don't know why you continue to post in this thread? Pretty sure everyone has concluded you don't know what you're talking about.

It wasn't a try for anything. Although even in its home country, Wranglers doesn't sell to many people - especially not if we cut the Barbies, the Bros, and the rock crawlers (or wannabe rock crawlers.
But anyway. Coming from someone who had to have it explained twice what a "global vehicle" meant, that means absolutely nothing.

And global market vehicle.....are you saying the Land Cruiser isn't a global vehicle?

No, I'm not. Maybe there are other reasons why sales of the Land Cruiser might drop, you think?
That doesn't support your argument one way or the other. The new Defender is a global vehicle. The Wrangler is not.

 

[Jwestpro]

Well get your alignment done fully loaded then. My pajero has IFS and IRS, I am well... well loaded and have zero issues with alignment or funny tyre wear.maybe a vehicle brand issue??? lol.

Really, you have the only IS vehicle in the world that doesn't wear tires on the inside edge? Lucky guy.... or you just post nonsense to disagree ?

 

[Pilat]

2019 is not over but Discovery has been selling at roughly 6000-8000 per year in Europe while Wrangler is at 6000-7000 per year in Europe. Sales volumes are converging. Partly due to poor D5 acceptance while Jeep has been moving to push sales higher.

Yes, "cheap" (in every way) can certainly be a good way to "push sales higher". But even if they sold 50,000/year, it still wouldn't be much. In 2017 they were down to about 3000 Wranglers sold in all of Europe. At least according to that graph of yours.

Also, that graphs show only 2018 numbers. It also fails to take the price of the vehicle into account. As I mentioned Morgans earlier. They don't sell a lot of cars. One of the reasons is that their cars are a bit expensive. They still make money on them, though. And as a general rule: You can make profit in two ways: Sell a lot at cheap prices, or sell less at higher prices. So even if they had completely "converged", LRs are a bit upmarket from the cheap and cheerful Wrangler.

And whether or not it actually "converges" with the discovery is just a red herring. 1) The Wrangler is not a global. The new Defender is. 2) The discovery is not the Defender.

As I pointed out there are many criteria on a global buyers checklist. The convergence highlights that reality. In addition today's vehicles are modular such that they can be tailored for a market and the associated requirements. They are 'platforms'.

Still not grasping the concept of a "global vehicle", I see.