New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[nickw]

Real world, as in not a LR demo track devoid of the real dangers present in off-road travel. Most people here know why low-profile tires are not practical for off-road use.


F150 & D90. Exploring OR.

Most people also know that while a 19" wheel is not ideal for some situations it certainly doesn't keep you from going offroad in 95% of the situations you or anybody on here does.

I'm in Oregon too. A good friend of mine who is a long time Rover guy bought a D90 back in 2008'ish kept it for a 6 months and dumped it for modded LR3 because he was interested in exploring E Oregon, out to the Steens, Wallowa's, Owyhee, etc. The long drives out there were much more enjoyable in the modern rig. I think he's since stepped up to a LR4....I'm sure he'll be in a Defender soon.

100% understand where you are coming from - I'm being a bit of a devils advocate since I understand the allure, appeal and simplicity of older rigs. Every time I see a old Series Rover or a D90 I turn my head, same as with old FJ's. I'd love nice 70 series or Defender, if they were not $$$ and unobtanium. Rip out to the dunes, hit some trails with some buds, not worry about the interior, get a nice patina from 30 years of use, throw my gear in and just go. But reality is my Ranger is a much better rig as is your F150 for any trip that involves more than a couple hours of pavement. Same can be said for this Defender...

 

[EricTyrrell]

Most people also know that while a 19" wheel is not ideal for some situations it certainly doesn't keep you from going offroad in 95% of the situations you or anybody on here does.

I've seen and experienced too many damaged tires to accept that. I've also needed to air down to avoid damage and/or aid traction too many times. This is off-road knowledge 101.

But reality is my Ranger is a much better rig as is your F150 for any trip that involves more than a couple hours of pavement. Same can be said for this Defender...

The Defender was never designed to be comfortable, and it doesn't need to be. With a million other vehicular options for road comfort, it only needs to be livable while excelling at its strengths, the strengths that make it unique in the marketplace. I either accept the discomfort as one embraces dispersed camping, or I bypass it entirely by towing it with the F150 which is designed to be relatively comfortable on-road. Did the new Defender need to be more comfortable? Absolutely, but that to what degree? It's almost impossible not to achieve additional comfort with modern engineering. Even the most utilitarian vehicles sold today such as the Superduty and Wrangler are absolutely livable without sacrificing their strengths. I also expect the new Bronco and Grenadier will be far more comfortable that any classic, and perfectly livable, without compromising to comfort norms people expect of passenger cars.

 

[T-Willy]

Looking back at that article, which portrays McGovern as a pompous ass, and then checking out the Grenadier site, it strikes me what a difference in attitude and perspective the two companies assume.

The INEOS Grenadier Story: Why We're Building A World Class 4x4

Our vision is to build a stripped back, utilitarian 4x4, engineered to overcome in all conditions. Here is where the inspiration for the Grenadier started.

ineosgrenadier.com

Grenadier is refreshing. Spot on thus far. New thread: https://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/ineos-grenadier.214546/

 

[mpinco]

Gerry McGovern is a 'designer' of style, not substance. That is his job, to lead them in the area of style. He has some success and some failures.

His impact on 3rd generation RR was a success. The latest RR's take that another step in that direction.

The Evoque is a success AND a fashion statement from McGovern.

The Discovery 5 is a failure.

The new Defender is still TBD.

I wouldn't expect a 100% success rate. I do think Covid-19 is going to have a major impact on both Jaguar and Land Rover. The industry talk is will Jaguar become a SUV product line. Which begs the question, why does JLR have so many SUV's and are there consolidation opportunities? Wouldn't be surprised to see McGovern move to Jaguar or maybe become more involved with Jaguar design while Land Rover rediscovers substance.

Just my opinion but when sales fall off a cliff and previous losses were in the billions and future losses are in the billions, style no longer is a priority. Survival is.

 

[nickw]

I've seen and experienced too many damaged tires to accept that. I've also needed to air down to avoid damage and/or aid traction too many times. This is off-road knowledge 101.



The Defender was never designed to be comfortable, and it doesn't need to be. With a million other vehicular options for road comfort, it only needs to be livable while excelling at its strengths, the strengths that make it unique in the marketplace. I either accept the discomfort as one embraces dispersed camping, or I bypass it entirely by towing it with the F150 which is designed to be relatively comfortable on-road. Did the new Defender need to be more comfortable? Absolutely, but that to what degree? It's almost impossible not to achieve additional comfort with modern engineering. Even the most utilitarian vehicles sold today such as the Superduty and Wrangler are absolutely livable without sacrificing their strengths. I also expect the new Bronco and Grenadier will be far more comfortable that any classic, and perfectly livable, without compromising to comfort norms people expect of passenger cars.

Try the Expedition 101 handbook - it speaks of 'compromise'.

I also think you are being a bit dramatic. Ability to air down has everything to do with sidewall height, which is a combo of rim diameter and overall tire size.

My stock ranger; 17" rims and 30.5" tires = sidewall height of 6.75"
Defender option 1; 19" rims and 32" tires = sidewall height of 6.5"
Defender option 2: 20" rims and 32" tires = sidewall height of 6"
Defender option 2 on large tires: 20" rims and 33" tires = sidewall height of 6.5"

Guess what a stock global Hilux comes with, same as the Ranger so it has 6.75" of sidewall. We are talking 1/4" of difference....

Hilux also has option of 18's which reduce sidewall height down to 6.25".

We can also compare ground clearance between your D90 and the modern Defender......is that important for 'offroad'?

 

[Victory_Overland]

That's not the point. You don't need to check a reference to see if it's a Ford, or a Bronco. Nearly anyone can tell immediately that it does not share the characteristics that would make it either.

If Porsche manufactured a car identical to a Miata, 370Z, or Supra and slapped the 911 label on it would it be a 911 in all honesty? The answer depends on what you value.

Agreed, however, NO doubt, generally speaking, however, most vehicles that run in a higher end market have less profile branding. The fact is the branding on the new Defender and Old Defender are about identical. Point is that what we in the US are used to seeing are massive FORD, GM, DC badging on trucks and stamped tailgates. I mean the front badges are like dinner plates and the same for the side and tailgates. Then go to say a luxury based Lincoln Navigator over the Ford Expedition and the badging and size changes a bit.

No doubt branding is different but if you de-badge a new Silverado and a new F150/250 etc and park them side by side, the only people that could nail the identification are the ones with some association of the brand. Hence why everyone brands their vehicles and brand markets.

Just wait....did you ever think big ugly shoes and mom jeans would be a thing, EVER? The whole 'norm core' movement is confusing....but it's all context and what you know at the time, I'm sure 20 years from now they'll look at some of the expedition 'builds' on here the same way we looked at the trucks from the 80's (with the big lifts, wide tires, metallic rootbeer paintjobs with crazy graphics and big roll bars with KC lights) and laugh about the ridiculousness of it all.

Not sure where you live; come to Cali and the fashion trends in all aspects are literally on a 5 year cycle. I think we are currently still on the back end of mom-jeans, hair is getting bigger again, and bell-bottoms are coming back......because it's Cali, this style includes the men and the women!

So true on the vehicles; I was a victim of my own self on this. Had an awesome 7.3D Excursion and lifted it to the sky for fashion and looks and lost all functionality. Took me about 6 months to realize I destroyed one of the best "long trip, put anything in it but maybe can't choose my parking but can tow in awesome fashion/function and still get over 20mpgs" and be in comfort and built on a truck platform. I literally had a Super Duty minus the bed but had more space inside than an 8' long bed with a cap. Took off the massive lift and 37's", installed 33" on a 2" lift and it was perfect.

Sure, I'll always have a soft spot for a Defender or 70 series pickup just because that's the era a grew up in and I love the mechanical nature of them, but i'm also not a fatalist and wanna pick the right tool for the right job. None of us live in Botswana or are traveling through the Simpson or Sahara, cool and iconic does not = reasonable for modern life and typical use case.

Truth be told, most would be better off in an older Mercedes Sedan, good fuel mileage, under the radar, plenty of space and has probably explored just as much of Northern Africa as any Land Cruiser/Rover has, plus they are cheap, readily available, easy to drive and comfortable....

Like watching Grand Tour and these guys drive across the Sahara in a camry or some little ******** box. Then we realize that the vast majority of nations do this every day with zero issues. Anyone who has been to North Africa, or the Middle East nations know that 95% of the population gets their way around their countries with zero problems in high volume, low cost sedans. I've seen cars in the craziest of roads in the most austere places and families are just cruising by like "No Big Deal"!

People literally drive across the entire country on dirty roads and through mountain pass roads in 2wd cars..................never even blink an eye at an overland vehicle.

What most of the world really drives in the places we wish we could take our overland vehicles.?

 

[nickw]

Looking back at that article, which portrays McGovern as a pompous ass, and then checking out the Grenadier site, it strikes me what a difference in attitude and perspective the two companies assume.

The INEOS Grenadier Story: Why We're Building A World Class 4x4

Our vision is to build a stripped back, utilitarian 4x4, engineered to overcome in all conditions. Here is where the inspiration for the Grenadier started.

ineosgrenadier.com

You throw rocks at LR but don't have a problem with the Grenadier sourcing engines from BMW? I know BMW is the pinnacle of offroad durability and all

For the record, I've owned several Audis and Beemers and have not had problems with them...but if guys are going to give LR flak about their reliability and engines choices....the Grenadier deserves it too.

 

[EricTyrrell]

You throw rocks at LR but don't have a problem with the Grenadier sourcing engines from BMW? I know BMW is the pinnacle of offroad durability and all

For the record, I've owned several Audis and Beemers and have not had problems with them...but if guys are going to give LR flak about their reliability and engines choices....the Grenadier deserves it too.

Last I read, LR is partnering with BMW as well. Anyways, engines are far from the only components that have plagued LR reliability, since 1948 admittedly. Will future BMW engines be reliable? Will LR and Grenadier use common engines from BMW? Nobody knows.

 

[nickw]

Last I read, LR is partnering with BMW as well. Anyways, engines are far from the only components that have plagued LR reliability, since 1948 admittedly. Will future BMW engines be reliable? Will LR and Grenadier use common engines from BMW? Nobody knows.

Grenadier is using an engine from BMW - we do know that. If you have a problem with LR engine reliability I'd expect you to have same concerns about the Grenadier, sim architecture, sim electronics, sim emissions, etc. They are not going to throw in Cummins 3.3....

 

[EricTyrrell]

Try the Expedition 101 handbook - it speaks of 'compromise'.

I also think you are being a bit dramatic. Ability to air down has everything to do with sidewall height, which is a combo of rim diameter and overall tire size.

My stock ranger; 17" rims and 30.5" tires = sidewall height of 6.75"
Defender option 1; 19" rims and 32" tires = sidewall height of 6.5"
Defender option 2: 20" rims and 32" tires = sidewall height of 6"
Defender option 2 on large tires: 20" rims and 33" tires = sidewall height of 6.5"

Guess what a stock global Hilux comes with, same as the Ranger so it has 6.75" of sidewall. We are talking 1/4" of difference....

Hilux also has option of 18's which reduce sidewall height down to 6.25".

We can also compare ground clearance between your D90 and the modern Defender......is that important for 'offroad'?

I'm not sure what book you're talking about, but the advice of books I've read, and trainers such as IW4DTA and BB4WA are fairly clear. My experience with ruts, rocks, and logs confirms the importance. I'll agree to disagree.

We've compared numbers here ad nauseam. It's a case of win some, lose some. FWIW, stock to stock, the classic has 8", new has 7" at best and 5" at worst.

 

[EricTyrrell]

Grenadier is using an engine from BMW - we do know that. If you have a problem with LR engine reliability I'd expect you to have same concerns about the Grenadier, sim architecture, sim electronics, sim emissions, etc. They are not going to throw in Cummins 3.3....

Correct, we know that. What I'm saying is there isn't much certainty beyond that. Which BMW engines will LR and INEOS use? How has BMW engine reliability changed since LR last used them? Yes, it's concerning.

 

[Victory_Overland]

Fact is, the ICE is on it's way out the door; whether we agree with it or not is none of our choices and that is for sure!

Over the last 5-7 years, the vast majority of vehicles being built, regardless of use are jammed packed with ECU's and electronics from the engine control to the body control modules and then just about every accessory or major subgroup gets its own individual ECU.

I do not think there is one major OEM that sells to the general population (majority), regardless of where on the planet that has not promised full electric within the next 5-10 years. Does anyone think they care one tiny bit about the 75% of the nations that can't effectively afford electric vehicles for all the reasons of grid power, economics, etc. I am not saying due to cost they can't afford it; I'm talking about their lives and nations are just not propped up for that kind of nonsense. As controlling "Actors" of the major superpowers continue to pin down rules and regulations you will see only the niche markets of low volume vehicles will be able to produce ICE and pay a hefty fee to do it.

On that note, all of these sexy new cars we are seeing are slowing being developed to remove one major component and install two; remove the ICE and install motors and batteries.

The new Bronco will share the vast majority of Explorer and other successful products they build; it will be one of the most "electronically" controlled vehicles produced with "advance electronic TC and lockers" with the option to add "electro-magnetic off-road suspension" to pair with that "electronically controlled TC and lockers"....................so that right there puts it in the same exact conversation as the new Defender.

 

[EricTyrrell]

Fact is, the ICE is on it's way out the door; whether we agree with it or not is none of our choices and that is for sure!

Over the last 5-7 years, the vast majority of vehicles being built, regardless of use are jammed packed with ECU's and electronics from the engine control to the body control modules and then just about every accessory or major subgroup gets its own individual ECU.

I do not think there is one major OEM that sells to the general population (majority), regardless of where on the planet that has not promised full electric within the next 5-10 years. Does anyone think they care one tiny bit about the 75% of the nations that can't effectively afford electric vehicles for all the reasons of grid power, economics, etc. I am not saying due to cost they can't afford it; I'm talking about their lives and nations are just not propped up for that kind of nonsense. As controlling "Actors" of the major superpowers continue to pin down rules and regulations you will see only the niche markets of low volume vehicles will be able to produce ICE and pay a hefty fee to do it.

On that note, all of these sexy new cars we are seeing are slowing being developed to remove one major component and install two; remove the ICE and install motors and batteries.

The new Bronco will share the vast majority of Explorer and other successful products they build; it will be one of the most "electronically" controlled vehicles produced with "advance electronic TC and lockers" with the option to add "electro-magnetic off-road suspension" to pair with that "electronically controlled TC and lockers"....................so that right there puts it in the same exact conversation as the new Defender.

When we figure out the energy density and infrastructure problem, an electric off-road vehicle could be amazing. Long travel IS with four hub motors and fine control of torque to each wheel. For a more simple option, beam axles and portals with hub motors, but without CVs, half-shafts, drive-shafts, and differentials. Remove those components and a beam axle can become much lighter and even more simple. Features like CTIS and portals (hub centered below beam, no need for portal gears) become much easier. The axle itself could arch up in the middle for clearance. Grenadier-E ? Anyways, pie in the sky.

 

[Victory_Overland]

Already testing those in the military and DARPA....some pretty awesome stuff.

And Nikola is killing it with the Reckless and SOF variants.

Nikola Reckless

 

[JeepColorado]

? yeah, they clearly didn't do any engineering at all. In an article where the topic is design, you highlight all of the ways in which the lead designer discusses design. ?

Show me where the Defender's design impairs its function as compared to the previous generations.

You do realize that in automotive engineering, the design and engineering are separate people and functions, and they're always in tension, right? You do realize that Gerry McGovern is a designer and not an engineer, with a degree in automotive design, right? And you realize that a "spiritual director" is not a chief executive officer or a lead automotive engineer, right? And you realize that at the end of the day, the two come together? That's called systems engineering - the management of design and engineering trades and requirements across the components to bring together the whole."




You do realize that everything you are saying about balance, while an incredibly compelling narrative of harmony, one I think is evident in other vehicles, is in direct contradiction to what he is saying in the article-?--did you bother to read it Diesel?

"Nobody puts me under pressure. And that’s a great thing. You know, Ralf [Speth], who’s the CEO, and Mister Tata, the owner of the business — he’s retired now, but he’s still involved — [they were] cognizant of [the fact that], if you want design to succeed, then let it, and not try to compromise it. And I think that’s been quite pivotal."

.....this is instructional, let's be clear- the "compromise" he's referring to in relation to the design is the engineering. Yes, they are sometimes two competing forces- and in Gerry's world- it's pretty clear which one wins.

And, just to make sure in case you were too busy to actually read the article let me help you with the highlights-

"So I don’t get people coming up to me saying, “Oh, could you make it more retrospective?” I don’t get marketing coming up to me saying, could you do this, could you do that. Because, quite frankly, I don’t take any notice of them. I’m employed as a professional. Design is a separate issue for the brand; I’m the spiritual leader for the brand. I define what that vision is, and my team executes it. It might sound very arrogant…which it is."

It's pretty clear that style has won over substance for a very long time at LR and it's been evident in their product- the Velar is incredible to look at sitting in the valet spot at Elway's Steakhouse in posh and flashy Cherry Creek with the look-at-me Instagram crowd- Denver, or the D5 which seems slightly more of substance, but still not actually meaningful. Hey, to each his/her own- if fronting the appearance of capability and staying true to your core is all that matters- then by all means- "Go Above and Beyond" with the latest LR product- I'd suggest buying the extended warranty. If you care about actual capability and a product that furthers the adventure and promise of a 4x4 in a true and authentic manner, and not just as part of a marketing ploy, there are plenty of better options. An LC 200, a US-Spec Nissan Armada, a G-Wagon...basically any Wrangler with aftermarket shocks or a stock Rubicon, A Grand Cherokee WK2, etc.... most of which can be had for thousands less.