Red90
Adventurer
You must never have owned a horse.
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New Defender Rage/Hate Thread
- Thread starter DieselRanger
- Start date
You must never have owned a horse.
Times change, and along with it - the scale of farming. Have you been to a modern farm? It's all but high production, massive volume. Even a 5 ton truck is a bit "hobby-ish" these days, no real farmer uses an SUV to haul stuff.
Back when the original Series was made, you could have your "home of 40 / 80 acres" and feed a family. A Defender, or 1/2 ton pickup here in NA, was plenty to carry feed, seeds, fertilizer for your little operation, plowed by a lowly Ford 8N tractor.
These days, things arrive on 40 ton flatbed, and you plough with $million GPS guided implements... Why would LR chase after the 0.001% farmer that insists on using a Defender?
DorB
Adventurer
Fatal Combination of thick fingers, small screen and auto correct..
Yes.
Heavily loaded, off&on road.
that’s a purpose platform.
Yes, it’s a enduring for the driver, but
You can throw anything in the back, drill it to fit what ever you want without heartache or punching one of dozen computers.. and fix it when something breaks, because every truck, from any brand, that goes real off-roading, eventually break something.
Sorry for the head poking..
I still don’t accept they dared to call their new version of Discovery a “Defender”.
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DieselRanger
Well-known member
The majority of the working-class Defenders you are thinking of from romantic pictures of the African Bush or the Himalaya are ancient machines that likely have very little original Defender bits other than the badge. They were likely left behind after UN relief work or geological survey work and began life as a commercial spec. And yes, Toyota and Nissan and Ford make vehicles that satisfy the same functions for far less money today primarily because they are each ten or twenty times larger than little JLR, even with Rich Uncle Tata upping their allowance. That's just economics.
You want to haul a dead animal in the back, a pickup is a far better choice, as clearly shown by thousands of hunters across America. It's easier to load and unload, easier to hose out. You can stack hay bales or wood or old tires or fill it with garden soil or haul a water tank. Can't do that in something with a top. And Land Rover didn't build them to do that, except for the very few 127 and 130 pickups they made, which BTW were only commercial (designed for public utility workers) or military spec from the start, with very limited private sales as new. Go ahead and price yourself a running Defender 130 pickup in the US...I hope you have a lot of money.
Land Rover still makes commercial trims of the Discovery and has already shown commercial versions of the Defender. They just don't sell them in the US because we don't buy them - if we need commodity-grade work vehicles, we buy pickup trucks or panel vans.
DieselRanger
Well-known member
I guess videos and 9 laps of a 500 mile track in Namibia reported on by every reputable automotive news outlet pretty much in the world isn't proof....
DieselRanger
Well-known member
Economics, bruh. Toyota, FCA, Ford, and Nissan each make millions of work vehicles globally - hell, Ford sells a million each year in the US alone. Naturally they can build them cheaper and price them accordingly for global sale as work appliances.
Land Rover doesn't want to claw back the utility/work vehicle market, though they do offer commercial spec vehicles for sale in their own domestic market. They are aimed at a premium enthusiast market with the New Defender because that's where there's a lot of money to be captured, and that's where a low-volume automaker can move their own needle. The Discovery was the same - families who want luxury and class-leading capability for weekend adventures.
DieselRanger
Well-known member
Porsche enthusiasts said the same thing about an all-wheel drive water-cooled 911. Corvette enthusiasts are saying the same thing about the C8. Chevy Impala and Blazer fans said the same thing about those vehicles.
It's their trademark, they can use it on a wheelbarrow if they wanted to.
DorB
Adventurer
Do we know each other?
Otherwise, you’re making un based assumption.
I’m not posting assumptions derived from YouTube or “romantic” magazines.
Typical North American attitude to think that these are “leftover” vehicles left for the poor locals by visitors from the rich countries.
Wake up.. there is a big world out of the US.
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EricTyrrell
Expo God
lol, have you seen the Blazer? You're right, trademark owners can do whatever they want, same as you and I, but that doesn't make it reasonable or honest.
Says Ford, must be a Ford.
JeepColorado
Well-known member
I guess videos and 9 laps of a 500 mile track in Namibia reported on by every reputable automotive news outlet pretty much in the world isn't proof....
I love that the standard is that the LR went a few miles under conditions LR set and didn't have any issues and now we get to wipe away decades of disappointment. Yes, it's legitimate off-roading, a trying track to be sure, but you'd need to be pretty naive or maybe just really looking for confirmation bias to think that a trip planned by LR under the conditions LR set with journalist that were hand-picked by the brand suffices as an objective analysis or example of what the Defender is.
Victory_Overland
Explorer
No need to start bashing and making assumptions yourself man with blanket statements like that; we are better than that and I mean I hope all of us are or I'm on the wrong forum where we legit start bashing people's nations and cultural grounds over car talk.
I think his point is that it is true that many, like thousands of vehicles made their way to hundreds of nations through commercial sales, aid, conflict, and other means. I can show you pictures of my time in Africa and the Middle East where hundreds and sometimes thousands of vehicles were brought in by various conflicts for military, GovAid, and NGO purposes and then made their ways into the commercial markets after their use was up. LR delivered hundreds, maybe even thousands of Defenders to Angola and many were just left and never used during the conflict and trickled into other African nations for various reasons. I have pictures of stadium size lots of all white, commercial D110 in Kuwait, Iraq, and Afghanistan. In Nairobi every corner as a D109 tow truck on it, and the thousands of UN transpo is derived almost solely from Toyota. Our LC76/78's (3 x LC76, and 1 x LC78). were bought through the Ethiopian Gov in Addis Ababa and were old UN vehicles; one was purchased in Nigeria from RC. Those vehicles have made there were all over east and west Africa and one of those LC76's will most likely be sold to purchase another Ethiopian Gov Auctioned LC78. Specialized military teams are rolling around Syria, Iraq, and Turkey in white Defender 110's, Rangers, and some LC right now that are leftovers from "coalition stock-piles" positioned around the planet; the numbers are staggering and although I have no clue how many of each vehicle or OEM, they are there in droves. Iraq and Afghanistan have thousands of commercial Rangers and some rebadged knock-offs.
All major nations and OEMs are on that bandwagon; Toyota did the same and so did Ford all over the planet. It truly is fact that tens of thousands of commercial vehicles from Defender, LC, and Rangers in every conflict area for various gov and non-gov uses are spread all over the globe. These vehicles spend a few years and then get auctioned off to commercial and civilian markets and yes, many times abandoned or written off to the governments and then people use them. We do the exact same thing with aviation assets, ships, and boats. Every major country who's in the conflict business has their products around the planet and they trickle into the markets. We do the same thing with "FLEET" (that's what we all large commercial sale vehicles here in the US) vehicles as they are sold to major companies and corporations to include aid, police, utility companies, military, etc. After they hit their life (many have time/mileage/hour limits), they are sold in auctions and make their way to the civilian world. There are literally old LAPD Cop Cars in Latin America serving their same purpose for other nations.
******** man, I wished that LR and Toyota would "dump" a few thousands Diesel LC, TDi Defenders, and D-Rangers on US soil in "any" fashion so they could make their way to our fleet sales auctions and we could get them legally in their newest model fashion. All we get are commercial grade cars, vans, and trucks. We can get SUVs but surely nothing awesome that is overland capable.
I truly believe that @DieselRanger by no means was making a slight on any person, culture, or nation so please man, keep the generalized comments about a specific country or region's attitude to yourself; no matter what country/region you are directing it at cuz its really off color man and honestly points that kind of "attitude" is in your house and not ours.
No room for that stuff here brotatochip; if you have a problem with one person's comments then take it up with them directly. I would expect you would stand your ground if someone directed that kind of rhetoric at your country/region; I'd have your back for sure cuz it's just not called for anywhere; especially this venue by anyone.
Respect; whatever country you're from and in!
Now let's HUG IT OUT FELLAS! I guess I'll be the dude in the middle and take one for the team! ? ? ?
DorB
Adventurer
You’re right.
I was over generalizing and fell into the same trap.
Still,
The traditional markets of Defenders and LC70, and other “simple mechanic” trucks is not North America. Never was.
And as such, you could (exclude the Defender), still buy them today.
The “leftovers” are added to the already existing local market.
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Victory_Overland
Explorer
So true. The funny thing is when we took the LC from Nigeria to Ethiopia; the driver that normally drives the LC crashed the Prado and our only modern vehicle was sent out to the pasture. The LC are bulletproof (not literally in our case) and so easy to work on; especially the ability of these low tech diesels that will run on just about anything that smells like diesels with zero problems.....hahaha
Our issue here is that we are seeing these come to US markets now but we all know the price most of us are going to pay and who knows now long or what new laws will change on the oil burners coming in as the political and actual climate change issues keep moving forward. Speaking for our patch of the planet that is.
JeepColorado
Well-known member
The Philosophical Underpinnings that built the Defender- direct quotes from the "Spiritual Leader" of LR
When it comes to accessorizing your vehicle- let's readily dismiss one of the most fundamental and enjoyable aspects of owning a 4x4 as evidenced by the incredible market for such accessories-
"I mean, a lot of these things are put on cars to reinforce the visual strength of them. Because actually, the cost of putting those on probably outweighs the [cost to repair any damage], anyway. So they were more of a visual metaphor. And for me, in my sort of modernist approach, that didn’t sit very well with me."
When it comes to style vs substance- style always wins! ....so critical off-road when you are counting on your vehicle to get you back- he literally is saying that design is the most important aspect of the brand- and it's still ugly from the front!
"At Land Rover, we have, over the years, desired to put design at the center of the business. We have developed a culture that has enabled us to do things like the new Defender, things like the Velar, things like the new Evoque or even the original Evoque. Which, before that, didn’t exist......The brand did have a very strong engineering background. And one of the things I was very focused on was, how can we put design at the core of this brand that would enable it to flourish as a consequence?"
*As a bonus, I think it's interesting how he talks about engineering, you know, the actual functionality, in the past tense as something that the brand "did" have strongly, but that he was more focused on seeing how the design could drive the true nature of the vehicle.
In case you doubt for a second that design/style is more important than substance for the new Defender ...looking at you @DieselRanger
"And so, I hear other companies talking about the importance of design, but I don’t always see it in the end result. And you made an interesting point there, where you say there was pressure on you to make it more retrospective? Nobody puts me under pressure. And that’s a great thing."
"So I don’t get people coming up to me saying, “Oh, could you make it more retrospective?” I don’t get marketing coming up to me saying, could you do this, could you do that. Because, quite frankly, I don’t take any notice of them. I’m employed as a professional. Design is a separate issue for the brand; I’m the spiritual leader for the brand. I define what that vision is, and my team executes it. It might sound very arrogant…which it is."
When it comes to the importance of off-road and the roll it should play in designing a vehicle
"The urban environment can be just as treacherous [as off-roading]."......I guess in some ways it can- I've been to downtown Detroit, it was pretty treacherous- sure glad I had plenty of articulation for the pot-holes- ******* could have gotten real otherwise.
Angry Eyes- one of the uglier trends in the Jeep aftermarket world, now included from the factory at LR
"And for me, there’s an honesty about this design, which I suppose comes out particularly in the detailing of the lamps, the front face, the simple geometric forms. There’s a rightness about it, it’s not trying to be something it’s not. When you look at that face, it’s proud, it’s strong, but it’s not trying to be overtly aggressive. It’s got big lamps, it’s got open eyes." ......except those big open eyes have an ugly squint whose very inclusion can only be an attempt to make it look more aggressive.
When it comes to accessorizing your vehicle- let's readily dismiss one of the most fundamental and enjoyable aspects of owning a 4x4 as evidenced by the incredible market for such accessories-
"I mean, a lot of these things are put on cars to reinforce the visual strength of them. Because actually, the cost of putting those on probably outweighs the [cost to repair any damage], anyway. So they were more of a visual metaphor. And for me, in my sort of modernist approach, that didn’t sit very well with me."
When it comes to style vs substance- style always wins! ....so critical off-road when you are counting on your vehicle to get you back- he literally is saying that design is the most important aspect of the brand- and it's still ugly from the front!
"At Land Rover, we have, over the years, desired to put design at the center of the business. We have developed a culture that has enabled us to do things like the new Defender, things like the Velar, things like the new Evoque or even the original Evoque. Which, before that, didn’t exist......The brand did have a very strong engineering background. And one of the things I was very focused on was, how can we put design at the core of this brand that would enable it to flourish as a consequence?"
*As a bonus, I think it's interesting how he talks about engineering, you know, the actual functionality, in the past tense as something that the brand "did" have strongly, but that he was more focused on seeing how the design could drive the true nature of the vehicle.
In case you doubt for a second that design/style is more important than substance for the new Defender ...looking at you @DieselRanger
"And so, I hear other companies talking about the importance of design, but I don’t always see it in the end result. And you made an interesting point there, where you say there was pressure on you to make it more retrospective? Nobody puts me under pressure. And that’s a great thing."
"So I don’t get people coming up to me saying, “Oh, could you make it more retrospective?” I don’t get marketing coming up to me saying, could you do this, could you do that. Because, quite frankly, I don’t take any notice of them. I’m employed as a professional. Design is a separate issue for the brand; I’m the spiritual leader for the brand. I define what that vision is, and my team executes it. It might sound very arrogant…which it is."
When it comes to the importance of off-road and the roll it should play in designing a vehicle
"The urban environment can be just as treacherous [as off-roading]."......I guess in some ways it can- I've been to downtown Detroit, it was pretty treacherous- sure glad I had plenty of articulation for the pot-holes- ******* could have gotten real otherwise.
Angry Eyes- one of the uglier trends in the Jeep aftermarket world, now included from the factory at LR
"And for me, there’s an honesty about this design, which I suppose comes out particularly in the detailing of the lamps, the front face, the simple geometric forms. There’s a rightness about it, it’s not trying to be something it’s not. When you look at that face, it’s proud, it’s strong, but it’s not trying to be overtly aggressive. It’s got big lamps, it’s got open eyes." ......except those big open eyes have an ugly squint whose very inclusion can only be an attempt to make it look more aggressive.