New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[mpinco]

Out of interest.

how many of you have actually sat in, and driven the old defender?

Have a D1, RRC and LR4 w/HD. Sat in / almost bought a 97 Defender. Took trips with all that included DII's and RR's.

 

[blackangie]

If the new Defender proves itself by emerging as a valuable workhorse and apex recreational 4x4, I'll consider it a Defender. However, I'd say the odds of it becoming a common sight among farmers, contractors, law enforcement, oil and gas exploration, mining operations, military, NGO logistics, is very slim. They're going to continue using body-on-frame coil/leaf sprung Toyota/Ford/GM/Nissan 4x4 pickups, utes, and SUVs.

I'd says the odds in the recreational world are slim as well. Just look at the latest Expo article: https://expeditionportal.com/the-best-of-sema-overland-2019/
It's loads of apparently primitive 4x4s, including a classic Defender, and zero newer Land Rovers of any sort.

Tones of D5s are already contracted by law enforcement across europe, what does that say about the new defenders chsnces being significantly more utilitarian and even moreso after the com version drops

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[blackangie]

If the new Defender proves itself by emerging as a valuable workhorse and apex recreational 4x4, I'll consider it a Defender. However, I'd say the odds of it becoming a common sight among farmers, contractors, law enforcement, oil and gas exploration, mining operations, military, NGO logistics, is very slim. They're going to continue using body-on-frame coil/leaf sprung Toyota/Ford/GM/Nissan 4x4 pickups, utes, and SUVs.

I'd says the odds in the recreational world are slim as well. Just look at the latest Expo article: https://expeditionportal.com/the-best-of-sema-overland-2019/
It's loads of apparently primitive 4x4s, including a classic Defender, and zero newer Land Rovers of any sort.

Wait until next year, there will be new defenders with all sorts of mods at all the shows

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[blackangie]

I don't think farmers have bought land rover Defenders for decades. Especially not the expensive old Defender in its senior years before they stopped production.

I think that is a weird criterion for "success" of this. As is the one about having it replace pickup trucks.

Agree old def only sold 5k, to public, 15k to fleet on average last few years, hardly a success

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[Blaise]

I've never had an old carbureted 4x4 suddenly die. When they have problems they give you plenty of lead time to fix the issue before they die. But new 4x4s can go into the limp mode for the silliest reasons and when the suddenly die, it is instant and often unrelated to the condition of the engine or powertrain, a switch just gets switched and the vehicle dies.

Ah yes, you're right. Newer vehicles are worse! That's why they design new models... to regress!

You know what I don't miss? Dealing with elevation changes with carburetors. Worrying about adjustment and clogged jets and stuck floats. I was SO thrilled the last day I had a vehicle with a carburetor. Good riddance. Do you still wish you were dealing with points?

What new vehicle just randomly went into limp mode for you? I'm in a modern rover and have been all over North America (including Alaska) and I'm still looking for all of these trails which require 37"s, and triple-locked solid axles. Maybe for some obstacle in Moab, but not on any 'road' that I can find.

 

[blackangie]

Ah yes, you're right. Newer vehicles are worse! That's why they design new models... to regress!

You know what I don't miss? Dealing with elevation changes with carburetors. Worrying about adjustment and clogged jets and stuck floats. I was SO thrilled the last day I had a vehicle with a carburetor. Good riddance. Do you still wish you were dealing with points?

What new vehicle just randomly went into limp mode for you? I'm in a modern rover and have been all over North America (including Alaska) and I'm still looking for all of these trails which require 37"s, and triple-locked solid axles. Maybe for some obstacle in Moab, but not on any 'road' that I can find.

I believe the new def drove most of the hard trails in moab

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[DieselRanger]

Except when the ground is like marbles under all 4 wheels. TC hunts and fails on hill climbs. TC's weak mode is depending on at least one or two wheels having a surface that it can grab onto to continue forward momentum. Defenders with lockers walk right up as all four wheels work.

Note: The 'demo' was the LR sponsored day trip attended by all flavors of Rovers and 'technology'. Wife won the teeter-toter event with our D1. Shortest time to balance point.

You didn't read the part about modern land Rovers with lockers. D5, RRS, FFRR, and Defender do or (for Defender) will offer them. Electronically locking center, manually locking rear available. The Defender offers configurable behavior for the center diff.

My D5 crawls right up in low range, first or second gear, in Rock Crawl or Mud/Ruts modes - never seen the center diff open in either of those modes. No rear locker, never been stuck even on a steep uphill, in a turn, in loose Pikes Peak pea gravel and baby heads. Maybe if I had to tow on wet grass or sand....

I've also had three wheels on ice and one in a hole resting on the lower A-arm, still got out with some rocking and some whacking with a Pulaski.

And OBTW, if you don't have even one wheel with traction, it doesn't matter how your wheels turn, they are all slipping, either locked together at the same speed, or separately one by one as the system hunts for traction. The only thing that solves that is the same thing you do whether you have lockers or not - air down, add traction devices (improvised or otherwise) and go easy on the long pedal.

Land Rover's TR2 is still the best in the business at what it does.



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[Jwestpro]

still looking for all of these trails which require 37"s, and triple-locked solid axles.

I think you've been to Evan's Creek ORV off that gravel road to Mowich Lake but what about Elbe ORV ? There are some at Elbe that will get your attention. We went one evening just as a quick thing and found "Rainier Vista" that had a cool rocky hill along its otherwise nice road.

http://www.dogpoundoffroad.org/Maps/Elbe_ORV_Map.png

At Evan's I was testing a new tire and should've read the trail notes better because 1153 starts like no big deal then you're out far enough to not want to turn around when it looks like you should being in a long butted and wide LR3. Since 2007 never had a dent. Plenty of branch scraping but not dents, until that stupid 1 mile of trail 102. It's one of those cut in types where much of the time the sides are up at the mirror height. Messed up two doors and ripped off two arches and broke a mirror. Idiotic.

Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest - Evans Creek Campground

Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest - Evans Creek Campground

www.fs.usda.gov

Trail 1153 I think it's to the left/west end of the lot, runs straight out NW then crosses a small spot NE and turns into 102 which is also well marked as a most difficult trail. For example a Disco 1 which is narrower and much shorter end to end would've been fine though anything not tiny would have to do the 4 point turns at the switch backs.

You should do the full Naches w me next year from the western summit entrance to it's eastern terminus. There are a couple ways to make a full route from 410 to I90.

 

[mpinco]

You didn't read the part about modern land Rovers with lockers. D5, RRS, FFRR, and Defender do or (for Defender) will offer them. Electronically locking center, manually locking rear available. ...........

You must have missed the post where I noted I have a LR4 w/HD. Virtually the same as the new Luxury Defender. While better than TC1 as sample rate has increased and algorithms updated, the operation remains the same. In essence it is reverse ABS TC with 2 locking diffs (rear and center). Much better than open diffs but not quite 3 lockers.

 

[Pilat]

You must have missed the post where I noted I have a LR4 w/HD. Virtually the same as the new Luxury Defender. While better than TC1 as sample rate has increased and algorithms updated, the operation remains the same. In essence it is reverse ABS TC with 2 locking diffs (rear and center). Much better than open diffs but not quite 3 lockers.

According to Mpinco here, they have to be a particular kind of locker as well as operate exactly like those in order for mpinco to recognise them as locking differentials. Anything else is according to him merely "better than open diffs".

 

[mpinco]

Argh. One step forward, two back ...............

The £65,000 Range Rover Sport is the least reliable new car you can buy for the second year running, says poll of UK drivers
By ROB HULL FOR THISISMONEY.CO.UK
PUBLISHED: 06:23 EST, 13 November 2019 | UPDATED: 06:37 EST, 14 November 2019

• Which?'s Car Reliability poll had the Range Rover Sport at the bottom of the list
• It scored one star rating out of five for dependability due to a host of problems
• This included onboard electronic gremlins and expensive suspension woes
• The smaller Land Rover Discover Sport also rated poorly for reliability

......According to the latest Which? Car Reliability poll, it scored an 'appalling' one star out of five for dependability for vehicles less than three years old, positioning it at the bottom of the reliability standings for a second year running. ........

......And it wasn't just a single issue that had riddled the expensive SUV.

Which? claimed there was an 'exhaustive list of problems', covering everything from the built-in sat nav, connectivity to the infotainment system, dashboard displays going haywire and the on-board computer software having glitches...........

......More than one in ten (11 per cent) of owners had to call out a recovery service at least once in the year before the survey was completed. ........

......That's four times the average for all vehicles, described by experts at the consumer group as 'pretty shocking for such a new car'.

And the Range Rover Sport wasn't the only problem child for the British vehicle manufacturer..........

......Some 7 per cent had issues with the engine management system, which can be a serious - and pricey - fault to fix......"

 

[Blaise]

I think you've been to Evan's Creek ORV

I sure have. It's an off-road park, not a road of any type. I certainly agree that there are challenging sections there, as well as other places in Moab. But actual roads, places that lead somewhere? I haven't found anything that needs that level of capability.

 

[mpinco]

Probably the best comment from the "least reliable car" article:

Having worked for JLR, this does not surprise me. The bosses want them off the line as quick as possible. Many employees have said that if they slow the line down a bit, you'd get a better car off the line - more time to do your operation and not miss things. This and their poor design change systems are the biggest issue, always tweaking because the designers never learn from previous mistakes or are too ignorant thinking they know better. Need to be less of a design led company and more of an engineering led company.

 

[EricTyrrell]

I don't think farmers have bought land rover Defenders for decades. Especially not the expensive old Defender in its senior years before they stopped production.

The last years of production are meaningless. It was 15 years overdue for a major refresh and everyone knew it. Prior to that, the Defender/Series were the OG market. Sure, they weren't pulling plows anymore, but every farmer has at least one utility vehicle of some sort. However, most of the world has moved on, or in North America remained, with other brand's true utility vehicles when LR abandoned it for the more lucrative Kardashian market. Unfortunately, now LR is in a position where a buyer looking for a utility vehicle doesn't even consider walking into a LR dealer, and if they do, they'll feel as out of place as a guy browsing a women's clothing boutique.

I think that is a weird criterion for "success" of this. As is the one about having it replace pickup trucks.

Weird? Not at all. Utility and recreation are the core of what Series/Defender are, as are the pickup versions. It's no different than the Land Cruiser and others. They are offered, and always have been, in various cab configurations to meet the utility needs of buyers world wide. Need to transport troops, personnel, sensitive goods: Station wagon. Need to transport raw material, weatherized equipment, etc: Pickup. Need to transport a bit of both: Double cab pickup. Nearly all manufacturers offer these configurations, even if by differing model designations.

 

[Red90]

People that come on and say they never have traction problems need to get out and try harder things. That is part of the fun, getting harder and harder until you can't get through. That is where you can compare different drivers and vehicles. If you have not taken your vehicle to that point and seen what other can do on that same obstacle, you really can't provide an informed opinion. I wheel all the time and with all Land Rover models. The current traction control seems like magic until you get to low traction surfaces, especially ones where wheelspin digs down. These are where it can be beaten. The rear locker really helps, but there are situations where you need to be able to force it to stay on. The systems are reactionary and there are obstacles where that can't work. and then you get to the obstacles where you really need more than traction control on the front axle as well. I've run all of these side by side with trucks that are open diff, trucks with TC and open diffs, rear lockers with and without TC and ones with lockers front and rear. Nothing is better than the last.