New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[DieselRanger]

I commend those willing to endure the headaches of fitting decent tires, messing with air suspension mods, frustrating winch fitment, dealing with break-downs (you will, if you haven't), and assuming the risk of taking these unreliable machines off-the beaten path. I did too, for a while. Then I tired of it. I realized it was unnecessary to push these things to go where they don't belong, when one can just buy a more honest platform.

All I needed was a set of AT tires, and will drive 99.9% of roads and trails in the US. That was $1,000. I don't know what you're buying off the lot that can do more than a Land Rover D5 with factory air suspension and TR2 and a set of aftermarket tires. Jeep Wranglers come standard with Goodyear SR-A street tires unless you buy a Rubicon. The new Defender offers the same grade of tires as the Rubicon as an option, just like Jeep does.

I'll buy a set of Compomotives later maybe, and this spring I'm adding rock sliders. All in that's maybe $3k. I could get a no-cut winch tray and some bull bars but I won't...a hi-lift and straps will do, along with a pulaski and maxtrax and maybe a rock bar.

 

[DieselRanger]

In summary much of the discussion has been along the lines of the long understood difference between Land Rover and Range Rover. The Land Rover was always downmarket, for the masses, simpler and commercial. The Range Rover was always upmarket, much higher complexity and much higher price point. Never for the masses, always for the elite, a status symbol.

As dieselranger pointed out, RR was the Jaguar of SUV's. The Land Rover was never that. As Land Rover moved upmarket they lost market share to the Toyota's of the world.

I distinctly remember ads for the Disco that said something to the effect of, "It's not the cheapest 4x4 on the market, but it's worth it." It always had more tech than its competitors and was nicer inside.

You know, "upmarket."

 

[DieselRanger]

It is if you want off-road worthy tires on any model except an SE LR3 (factory 18s), and even then the tire selection is greatly reduced, it's an unnecessary headache with no proper solutions if you're stuck with 19"+ wheels. If you want to fit larger tires and (smartly) retain the ability to run snow-chains, or retain bump-stop mobility, have fun messing about with EAS mods. Good think you don't have a winch. They're a pain to fit to any modern LR without spending a fortune, hacking up body work, and ending up with an inaccessible unsafe solution.

EDIT: I almost forgot about the spare tire situation. Barely larger than stock and you're looking at shelling out for a rear-tire carrier. It's all so unnecessarily difficult. From reliability to logistics, you eventually realize they only engineered them to be off-road vehicles in theory.

The Defender has a rear-mounted spare. Literally every picture of it shows that. The 4Runner does not, nor does the Taco. Or the LC or any Lexus.

Don't need a lift to get 32" tires on 18" rims and the spare on my D5. I run dedicated snows in winter. You don't go offroad in the Colorado Rockies in the winter unless you're in something made by Bombardier or Kassbohrer or Tucker. If I wanted a 2"suspension lift it's $80 and an afternoon of my time, but I think it's unnecessary.

No EAS mods required.

 

[DieselRanger]

Yup. Still just as unreliable, except now they're far less field repairable. There are two types of modern LR off-roaders, those who have been bitten too many times, and those convinced they'll be the exception.

Mine has gone 32,000 miles without a problem. I've even driven it through whole feet of water without catching fire. Multiple times!

Lucas Electric doesn't make switchgear or wiring harnesses for Land Rover any more. It's the original sin of the automotive world. The corollary is, Toyota and Subaru and Volvo get a pass even though their quality has fallen. Nobody expects quality from a Jeep, which is why they spend $10k's modifying them, to remove the OEM parts to "upgrade" them.

 

[DieselRanger]

I am sure he meant "decent tires" assumes larger, etc especially for LR4's. It is most certainly a "headache" to fit 32-33-34" tires even on the lr3, more so on the lr4. You know what a Land Cruiser requires for 33" perfect fully functional fit? Simply a trip to tire shop to pop them on and you can even go with factory TRD 17" wheels. Nothing to do whatsoever. By comparison it makes chosing any "decent" (sized) tire a headache or annoyance at least. I may be partial to this though because when I did it, there were no 75 page threads discussion the 5 different ways to do this or that. There was only Discoweb to laugh at you for buying an LR3 in the first place with no help on how to fit something other than stock.

I have 32" tires on my D5 right now, no rubbing, no cutting, no lifting. 33" will fit without mods but will rub at full lock at access height - i.e., crouched down driving in a parking garage.

EDIT: For the record, my 275/55-20 AT's are 31.9" tall and 265/65-20 KO2's are 32.6" tall.

Go 18" Compomotives and the equivalent to the latter is 265/70-18.

There are 30 tire choices in that size including Grabber X3's.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?zip-code=80920&width=265/&ratio=70&diameter=18&rearWidth=255/&rearRatio=40&rearDiameter=17

 

[soflorovers]

 

[Christian P.]

 

[EricTyrrell]

Mine has gone 32,000 miles without a problem. I've even driven it through whole feet of water without catching fire. Multiple times!

Lucas Electric doesn't make switchgear or wiring harnesses for Land Rover any more. It's the original sin of the automotive world. The corollary is, Toyota and Subaru and Volvo get a pass even though their quality has fallen. Nobody expects quality from a Jeep, which is why they spend $10k's modifying them, to remove the OEM parts to "upgrade" them.

If you're at all familiar with the various electrical failure modes of these things, you'll know they have nothing to do with Lucas, yet they exist. I was bit by several and I see bargain bin LR3/4s all the time on craigslist where the owner has given up. Going by the latest reliability studies, there's every reason to suspect the latest models will age similarly.

 

[EricTyrrell]

I have 32" tires on my D5 right now, no rubbing, no cutting, no lifting. 33" will fit without mods but will rub at full lock at access height - i.e., crouched down driving in a parking garage.

EDIT: For the record, my 275/55-20 AT's are 31.9" tall and 265/65-20 KO2's are 32.6" tall.

Go 18" Compomotives and the equivalent to the latter is 265/70-18.

There are 30 tire choices in that size including Grabber X3's.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?zip-code=80920&width=265/&ratio=70&diameter=18&rearWidth=255/&rearRatio=40&rearDiameter=17

They've followed the industry trend towards larger overall tire size, which is helpful, but they've also followed the trend towards larger wheels and tighter tire-to-fender clearance. It's a bit of a wash. You're running 32s on 20s. My F150 runs 33s on 20s, and they look stupid, and perform worse. Minimal sidewall protection, harsh ride, little room to air down. My wife wanted the upper trim level, of course, so that's what I get. I refuse to swap them as a matter of principal. These impractical wheel sizes don't belong on trucks and Land Rovers. They belong on Range Rovers.

 

[Blaise]

It is if you want off-road worthy tires on any model except an SE LR3 (factory 18s), and even then the tire selection is greatly reduced, it's an unnecessary headache with no proper solutions if you're stuck with 19"+ wheels. If you want to fit larger tires and (smartly) retain the ability to run snow-chains, or retain bump-stop mobility, have fun messing about with EAS mods. Good think you don't have a winch. They're a pain to fit to any modern LR without spending a fortune, hacking up body work, and ending up with an inaccessible unsafe solution.

EDIT: I almost forgot about the spare tire situation. Barely larger than stock and you're looking at shelling out for a rear-tire carrier. It's all so unnecessarily difficult. From reliability to logistics, you eventually realize they only engineered them to be off-road vehicles in theory.

I have an SE. I have clearance for chains (tested). My spare tire also fits just fine. I run a 265/65/18, which not only has been plenty large for anything I've been able to find, but the 'limited selection' of tires included BFG KO2, Duratrac, Falken Wildpeak, Cooper Discoverer AT3, General AT2, amongst others.

These impractical wheel sizes don't belong on trucks and Land Rovers. They belong on Range Rovers.

Agreed. I'm glad the 18" steel wheels are offered on the Defender. Not sure how I'd handle a 20" rim for off-road duty.

 

[EricTyrrell]

I have an SE. I have clearance for chains (tested). My spare tire also fits just fine. I run a 265/65/18, which not only has been plenty large for anything I've been able to find, but the 'limited selection' of tires included BFG KO2, Duratrac, Falken Wildpeak, Cooper Discoverer AT3, General AT2, amongst others.

Agreed. I'm glad the 18" steel wheels are offered on the Defender. Not sure how I'd handle a 20" rim for off-road duty.

I ran the same size on my LR3 in KO2s. They rubbed until I added 3/4" BORA spacers, an annoying and expensive mod. There still wasn't room for chains when on bump stops. It would have been completely immobilized. That's not the marks of a cohesive off-road platform. Again, it just left me with the feeling, in several ways, that I was pushing this pig to be something they didn't really intend.

 

[Blaise]

I wonder if the KO2 is significantly different in real size. I've checked mine on bump stops (EAS full deflate) to verify fitment.

 

[nickw]

I ran the same size on my LR3 in KO2s. They rubbed until I added 3/4" BORA spacers, an annoying and expensive mod. There still wasn't room for chains when on bump stops. It would have been completely immobilized. That's not the marks of a cohesive off-road platform. Again, it just left me with the feeling, in several ways, that I was pushing this pig to be something they didn't really intend.

All platforms have limitations, Toyotas too, big deal. You ran into a problem other guys haven't, dont judge the rig that isnt even out, by your n=1 experience. First world problem with tires, lots of 18s out there. Dont most 4runners and Landcruisers use 18s?

 

[Box Rocket]

All platforms have limitations, Toyotas too, big deal. You ran into a problem other guys haven't, dont judge the rig that isnt even out, by your n=1 experience. First world problem with tires, lots of 18s out there. Dont most 4runners and Landcruisers use 18s?

New LandCruisers typically have 18's. 4runners have an 18" option I believe but also offer a 17" wheel. Personally, I feel an 18" wheel is the largest wheel I'd be comfortable using, unless you get into the really large sizes of tires (like 42"+). Makes the wheel just too prone to damage either by being closer to the ground and contacting rocks/roots etc at the sidewall, or from being close to the ground and making running low air pressures more risky with being more susceptible to punctures and or wheel damage from objects that are run over.

 

[getlost4x4]

I'm running 35" tires on 18" wheels on my 2018 Ram 2500 Cummins, I think the sidewall height is pretty good. I'd like 17" wheels, but they won't fit over the brakes.

I prefer 16" wheels, but the newer vehicles brakes just won't allow that. I know driving on Utah interstates towing or just driving in general, I'm sure glad I can stop when some ************** decides to swerve in front of me without looking.