New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[DieselRanger]

1. JD Powers -- lowest 2020 dependability rating in the U.S. Link: https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-us-vehicle-dependability-study

"Audio/Communication/Entertainment/ Navigation (ACEN) is the most improved category (by 2.3 PP100), but still accounts for more problems than any other category in the study. Owners continue to cite problems with voice recognition, Bluetooth® connectivity and navigation systems"

Let me know when they release the individual vehicle rankings and problem category rankings from behind the paywall.

2. OSV -- This review of multiple consumer surveys concludes, categorically, that "Land Rover and Range Rover are not reliable. It might be painful to admit it, but the evidence is clear to see." Link: https://www.osv.ltd.uk/how-reliable-are-land-rover-and-range-rover

"Though overall reliability of models produced by Land Rover (including their Range Rover vehicles) is not seen to be the best when reviewed for consumer and warranty reports, when looking at individual components of the vehicles (such as engine or braking system), they rate much better in the ReliabilityIndex report.

Air conditioning, gearbox, engine, braking system and the cooling and heating system all fared well, with less than 14% of owners reporting issues with these aspects of their vehicles. The electrics and fuel system earned an average score, placing 23 and 21 place respectively. Steering and transmission both appear in the bottom 10 for reliability, however, reports from owners for all manufacturers were rather low when it comes to these two areas, and though steering placed 32 out of 40, only 6.09% of owners reported any problems with it. The transmission system list proves similar. Though Land Rover transmission systems placed 33 out of 40 manufacturers, only 5.67% of owners reported that they had needed to get this repaired."

A rising tide of reliability lifts all boats. Not clear when this was posted but it appears to be 2017 or later. Early in the article it cites a study of used Land Rovers from 2012, meaning they were surveying reliability of cars older than the current generation of vehicles, which we all agree, were not the most dependable vehicles on the road.

3. Repair Pal - "The Land Rover Reliability Rating is 2.5 out of 5.0, which ranks it 31st out of 32 for all car brands." Link: https://repairpal.com/reliability/land+rover

Old data, does not even allow you to select the Discovery, still shows LR4 and LR2 yest somehow "Cars included in the Reliability Rating cover 2010-2019 model year vehicles with controls in place to ensure statistical confidence." Note coat of ownership is "average" for the brand in its class. Why don't they have the current Discovery, Discovery Sport, or Range Rover? It's because they don't have enough data to have statistically relevant results.

4. Consumer Reports -- concludes bluntly, "Reliability remains a serious concern." Link: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/land-rover/

It remains a serious concern because they don't have enough data to assess whether it's still unreliable. They even state so when you select individual models - the 2017 through 2019 Discovery page has "NA" listed for all categories. Consumer Reports should stick to toasters and blenders. They also complain about how stiff the clutch is on the Subaru WRX STI. LOL.

5. Reliability Index -- consistently terrible ratings across Land Rover models. Link: https://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/132

Ah, yes, the infamous "Reliability Index" which sells aftermarket warranties. Note the "Warranty Direct Rating" is abysmal and featured at the top, and right next to a button to allow you to get a quote on a warranty that they clearly want to scare you into buying, whereas the "User Reliability Index" is at the bottom and is on the Green/Good side of the spectrum. Also does not allow you to select the current generation of Discovery by year, probably because they're all still under factory warranty.

6. Consumer Affairs -- This litany of consumer horror stories sort of sealed the deal. Failed engines. Failed brakes. Failed electronics. Poor dealer support. On and on. And, all on relatively new and recent vehicles. Link: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/land_rover.html?page=3#sort=top_reviews&filter=none

Ok, first, "Consumer Affairs" is a for-profit business that sells "accreditation" to companies who are the subject of consumer reviews. It allows "accredited" companies, again who pay for the privilege, to review and respond to customer reviews prior to being posted publicly. No membership, then you can't respond, but consumers can post whatever they like. Interestingly, Hyundai gets 2/5 stars on this site but it's perennially one of the most reliable auto brands today. Wheres Jaguar? 4/5 stars - higher than Honda. Land Rover? 3/5 stars. Hm. Must be a really great site.

Naturally, people who are happy with their vehicles generally must be asked to respond to surveys because they're busy not thinking about how well things are working, whereas people who have problems will seek to let others know that they are having problems.

 

[2.ooohhh]

I’m similar to jack, former tech have owned/restored/built dozens. If you know what you’re doing and love doing it it’s pretty easy to have a driveway full at a time.


If I’m honest the new defender has my attention, my FJ didn’t work with the kiddos and was absolutely flat out boring to drive any long distance in. My disco is much better driving wise on the interstate, and seems as capable off road out of the box. The wife currently loves her allroad but while it’s a blast to drive I can tell it won’t be in the driveway long. The 2.7tt is a fantastic engine day to day but at high mileage starts to make my Rover v8 seem low maintenance by comparison! I’m teetering between repowering the disco or buying a new disco or defender. Trick is I want a diesel. Whether I pay LR for a new one in a couple years or build my own the cost will likely be similar by the time I finish.

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[JackW]

If you are looking to buy a new Rover diesel I think you are going to be out of luck. According to my sources at LRNA diesels are off the table for the US market for the foreseeable future. They have already withdrawn the Ingenium diesel powered Jags and Evoque and the 2020 Discovery 5 and RRS are in their last year with the TDV6. I was really looking forward to the inline 6 diesel that will be put in the new Defender in the future but LRNA has no plans to bring it to the US market at this time. My TDV6 D5 has been a spectacularly good vehicle - l'll be somewhat sorry when I trade it in on a P300 110 later this year.

 

[2.ooohhh]

If you are looking to buy a new Rover diesel I think you are going to be out of luck. According to my sources at LRNA diesels are off the table for the US market for the foreseeable future. They have already withdrawn the Ingenium diesel powered Jags and Evoque and the 2020 Discovery 5 and RRS are in their last year with the TDV6. I was really looking forward to the inline 6 diesel that will be put in the new Defender in the future but LRNA has no plans to bring it to the US market at this time. My TDV6 D5 has been a spectacularly good vehicle - l'll be somewhat sorry when I trade it in on a P300 110 later this year.

I understand it’s a pretty grim outlook from LRNA currently, but I’ve gotten a ride in a Cummins r2.8 repowered disco 1 and was quite impressed. I’m not opposed to building my own with my current disco or finding a defender that gets totaled/theft recovered early on and swapping it myself with an import diesel power plant. My current rust free disco is eligible for antique tags in two years and I’m a big fan of those here, it’s nice to not have too keep up with renewals on vehicles in the collection.


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[Victory_Overland]

There is some truth to that statement. I lost a hub on my LR3 in the Irish Canyon on the way Jackson one time and it took 4 days in Rock Springs to get it fixed. I should have has an extra hub with us but the the one that broke was less than a year old Timken Part. This is a consideration getting off alone in the back country. I'm always a little hesitant about getting off the pavement in my LR3. I never thought about it in my jeeps or my Series one Discovery's. It Looks like Land Rover has put sometime into over building a lot of the components that might fail on the New Defender. Will it be as easy to field fix as a Jeep or the old Defender. No, but I bet they have made sure that you can still do some field work easily on them. It's a toss up, drive what you like.

Wait, what? Dude you have the craziest things happen. What do you mean you "lost a hub" and it was not drivable? You mean you drove the wheel bearing down so deep into repair it was no longer functional? If that hub broke that means the play in your axle bearings was way beyond repair for a long time and that is your fault not anyone else's. Not trying to bust on you but that is lack of maintenance or serious over driving to break "ANY AXLE" on any vehicle; especially a LR or Jeep or Yota. If you broke a hub and not an axle I'd like to see how this went down and the condition of the hub prior to even taking it off-road. Timken bearings are pretty solid pieces of gear; but bearing failure is bearing failure but no bearing "fails" before it "wears" and gives you plenty of sign of "wear" before it completely "fails". Axle or spline shear should have happened way before hub failure so that hub was well worn out before the failure on the trail; just my opinion but I was not there just trying to make sense of it.

This very idea has come up for me and my wife twice- recently when I was trying to decide whether to get a Jl Rubicon and 7 years ago when the new Jeep Grand Cherokee (WK2) had just come out we were deciding between it and an LR4. I went into it thinking I'd get the LR4 and I was certain that's what my wife would want given the luxury of it. I honestly looked at the reliability of both as somewhat equivalent in terms of likelihood that they would break.

I saw 2 main differences-

1) The breaks on the Jeep were much less expensive and easier to deal with, such as dealer locations, then the LR4- that mattered, but ultimately wasn't the deciding factor- what was? Cost - how that relates is that I'm not giving Jeep a "pass" for reliability, it's just a lot more tolerable when I'm spending considerably less money and any issue that come up they will be easier to fix.

2) The Grand Cherokee with every option you could possibly get was almost $20K less than a similarly equipped LR4. And we just really didn't see where the extra money went other than the name. It didn't ride $20K better, Jeep had just come out with their highly-regarded 8.2" inch touch screen with UConnect system so the LR4 screen was much smaller and less user friendly which mattered to Mrs. JeepColorado and the Grand Cherokee had a Hemi V8 which made it a hoot to drive.

This to me is one of the key problems with the Defender- the costs. Listening to some of the Overland Journal podcasts lately it's a concept that repeatedly comes up. That extra costs is money you are NOT spending traveling. A top of the line Rubicon can be had all day for $50- leather, heated seats, power locks/windows, cool radio package etc... You could put $10-15 into it with uber high-quality components- RhinoRack, ARB Bumper & Drawer system & lights, Warn winch etc.... and still be less than $70. That's the entry price on most any Defender unless you go with the no-options version.

We take the money saved and do stuff with it- if I didn't want the add-ons to the Jeep (Part of the fun for me is the ability to customize it) we could do even bigger adventures with it- either way I still come out ahead monetarily. The only other difference I've really seen that I'll tip my hat to the LR products on is the ride quality. They definitely ride better than a Jeep, but the JL platform is remarkably better than previous Jeeps- Having driven a brand-new D5 and a 2020 Rubi back to back on the same day over the same roads I can tell you that the Jeep is 90% as good as the D5 and throw shocks on it and it gets even better.

If you doubt my numbers on building the Jeep for about $60-65 ready to go anywhere quite comfortably- View attachment 587184

$60k for that? ????, do you have diamonds under the seat or gold laced door hinges? There are five identical ones on my street so either peeps are lying to me on their prices or you paid way too much! Good news is, they all took their instagram photos in the same spot I think by the trail marks behind your so-called blazed path where you are turning around to make fresh tracks for your photo!

You paid $42k for a Base Rubicon Jeep, add another $18k or so in add-ons to equal $60k for a Rubicon and you're going to bust on anyone who buys a $60k LR Defender that is kitted out and DOESN'T need any mods; proves right there you are on the Jeep bandwagon and yeah, I love Jeeps and looking at a Gladiator for work purposes.

So here is my math cuz a Base Jeep Sport starts at $36k, I could fully load a Sport for $42k, put in locked Dana's for another $6-7k, 35" and light lift for another $3.5k and be in just over $50k; of course I do my own work so so there is that part of being a real overlander and mechanic cuz I don't need dealers to kit out my vehicle for me with a 100% markup.

I follow a lot of Jeep forums and have a lot of friends who routinely hit legit "Jeep only" stuff and I see where the smart guy are modifying a true Jeep for the bang. Since there are so many aftermarket options available why would anyone possibly buy anything more than a Sport with tow package if they planning on modifying driveline and suspension?

Yes, but the 200 wouldn't be a HD LC. People that want a HD LC don't want a wagon, just as people who want a modern classic Defender (akin to the HD LC series), don't want a wagon Defender.

Further, it seem the LC wagon series is actually most akin to the Discovery series. Both are wagon body only, share components with their HD/classic series, and focus more on passenger comfort. Now we're logically back to the common idea that the new Defender would have fit better into the Discovery series.

You know SUV is a category and class for "safety, registration, tax and insurance" terms right? We used to have station wagons in the states, they went away and "SUV and crossovers" came into play. The registration name came about to be able to collect tax, registration, and insurance. A Defender was known as a station wagon in Europe if I am not mistaken; if you registered it in America it would be an SUV because its a Class for nothing more than Uncle Sam, and the bean and stats counters to have a spot to categorize it for automotive standards. Jeep Wrangler "Is" an SUV in America, Gladiator is a "Truck", you can classify either as a commercial vehicle just by telling your Stave DMV by its uses if you want to pay for it and the insurance. Its a category like many others to collect revenue for the states; that's it. Tesla Model X because it weighed more than 6k lbs was being used widely as a tax loop hole for right-off as commercial variants until Cali finally changed the law and realized they weren't collecting enough money from people who bought them. Why a trike is still a motorcycle class, and those Polaris three-wheeled things can drive in the motorcycle lanes and HOV lanes as motorcycles; the manufacturer built it into that category and class..........that's it; get over yourself the SUV insecurity.

Also a note on reliability: All of you here whining about the infotainment being buggy on Land Rover for years should feel blessed you have never spent a hundred thousand dollars on a camper van from any mainstream manufacturer. Reliability is relative, and pieces fell right off my Winnebago within the first few months of owning it... and it was a commonly known problem with the model.

Winnebego Revel? I almost pulled the trigger on one cuz I didn't want to build another overland/camp vehicle from scratch. My neighbor bought one two months ago and already having interior issues but that thing is awwweeeeeeesome! Been following the forums and most are happy but I see a lot of the issues you are speaking of. I'm thinking Ill be buying the fully loaded van cab and doing my own thing in the back for less than $20k (Camper Mods) I hope. I'll hit you up on the side for questions and best advice if you don't mind?

 

[DieselRanger]

If you are looking to buy a new Rover diesel I think you are going to be out of luck. According to my sources at LRNA diesels are off the table for the US market for the foreseeable future. They have already withdrawn the Ingenium diesel powered Jags and Evoque and the 2020 Discovery 5 and RRS are in their last year with the TDV6. I was really looking forward to the inline 6 diesel that will be put in the new Defender in the future but LRNA has no plans to bring it to the US market at this time. My TDV6 D5 has been a spectacularly good vehicle - l'll be somewhat sorry when I trade it in on a P300 110 later this year.

Yeah this saddens me a little. I love the Td6 engine - I think a 3.0L turbodiesel with between 250-300hp and 450-500lb-ft of torque is just about an ideal all-around engine for an SUV. It moves the D5 smartly, gets fantastic fuel economy, and is effortless on the trail. I generally get about 27mpg on the trip from home to Crested Butte and sometimes better to Summit County. And diesel fuel is sufficiently common out west and hasn't been expensive in about a decade.

We will see if the rumored rollbacks on EPA emissions and CAFE targets sticks past the 2020 elections. I think it's possible we could see the Ingenium inline-6 turbodiesel if those rollbacks happen and stick around a while.

However...I'll keep an eye on the P400 anyway.

 

[Corgi_express]

Winnebego Revel? I almost pulled the trigger on one cuz I didn't want to build another overland/camp vehicle from scratch. My neighbor bought one two months ago and already having interior issues but that thing is awwweeeeeeesome! Been following the forums and most are happy but I see a lot of the issues you are speaking of. I'm thinking Ill be buying the fully loaded van cab and doing my own thing in the back for less than $20k (Camper Mods) I hope. I'll hit you up on the side for questions and best advice if you don't mind?

A Travato, actually. To me, the 4x4 Sprinters are kind of a weird beast - they have really weak traction control and are super top heavy, so not very capable, and are also pretty small so not super awesome as campers. If I were going for a 4x4 van it would be something like a Quigley Transit or a Sportsmobile Classic. Instead, I got the Travato because it is way more spacious for months on the road, and I will buy something like a Defender or Gladiator for shorter trips where I want 4x4. Right tool for the job and all of that.

I do anticipate selling the Travato and going full custom at some point, partially because of the build quality of Winnebago, but mostly because I want a "garage" to throw kayaks and climbing gear in. One thing the Travato has that is killer is the Volta battery system. It costs a bunch extra but was a game changer in terms of convenience for long trips.

 

[TexasTJ]

Wait, what? Dude you have the craziest things happen. What do you mean you "lost a hub" and it was not drivable? You mean you drove the wheel bearing down so deep into repair it was no longer functional? If that hub broke that means the play in your axle bearings was way beyond repair for a long time and that is your fault not anyone else's. Not trying to bust on you but that is lack of maintenance or serious over driving to break "ANY AXLE" on any vehicle; especially a LR or Jeep or Yota. If you broke a hub and not an axle I'd like to see how this went down and the condition of the hub prior to even taking it off-road. Timken bearings are pretty solid pieces of gear; but bearing failure is bearing failure but no bearing "fails" before it "wears" and gives you plenty of sign of "wear" before it completely "fails". Axle or spline shear should have happened way before hub failure so that hub was well worn out before the failure on the trail; just my opinion but I was not there just trying to make sense of it.

Hub Bearing was going out. Just made in in to Rock Springs. It was close to failing when we got to town. It had 10k on it and had no play when I checked It before we left and was only on the truck for 6 months. 60 miles of wash board did it in. I feel it was just a bad park because I’ve not had the problem on my 3 or ever again on my wife’s. ?‍♂️

Adding to the joke that has been my LR3 experience, It got hammered with golf ball size hail last night. ?

 

[REDROVER]

when is the defender going to hit the streets ?
125 pages of argument,

I was driving back today from camping trip in Sierra Nevadas, on highway 395 about 6 out of 10 vehicles are adventurers, as I was paying attention of type of vehicles passing me by, I was thinking, the new defender will be absolutely much better than lot of them,

I saw over 30 Subaru’s all decorated for off road,
Crossovers all kinds as many as you can imagine.
even 4x4 tiny Mitsubishi vans,
Tacoma’s everywhere,
And yes I drive a Tacoma too, I am pretty damn sure defender will run circles around my truck.
My point is, defender will be just fine and even more.
let’s give it a chance.
It’s not rugged, I get it, but nothing is rugged now days, and they are stiii out there having fun.

Some guys like decorated Subaru,
Some guys like nice pair of hiking boots, and some guys like to get there by motorcycle.

But they all get there and have fun.

 

[TexasTJ]

The best adventure vehicles I have ever driver were Sedan‘s rented from Enterprise. I have driven them into the Wind River and the Bugaboos. It doesn’t mater what you driver at some point the the road runs out and you have to start Hoofing it. But most of my Adventures are climbing related. ?‍♂️
The new defender will be a great vehicle.

 

[Victory_Overland]

@Corgi_express thanks for the van response. I would love a big ole Ford Sportsmobile but do not plan to use it for full on off-road as I have the LR3 for that. Great advice on the long term and custom ideas and that is why I plan to go the Sprinter route with a zero mile diesel and never look back. 4x4 is more for the winter traverse than the off-road other than dirt roads and such like that. Anything specific is going to be for the LR3 as I do not think I can depart from Victory (LR3); even if the engine lets go at some point, a replacement is pretty easy to come by and better option than a new rig with all my current mods and plans.

@REDROVER agree completely; love Tacos and if I was going to get a truck I may look there for just a truck; or new Ranger or diesel Colorado as it's a nice option.....all of them are actually. Have my eyes on a potential work related set up for a Gladiator and it will be kitted but in a different fashion than for off-road play; although it will surely spend time off-road. I want to rent one next time I'm up north on a work trip and get some miles behind one and see if I like it.

 

[onemanarmy]

when is the defender going to hit the streets ?
125 pages of argument,

I was driving back today from camping trip in Sierra Nevadas, on highway 395 about 6 out of 10 vehicles are adventurers, as I was paying attention of type of vehicles passing me by, I was thinking, the new defender will be absolutely much better than lot of them,

I saw over 30 Subaru’s all decorated for off road,
Crossovers all kinds as many as you can imagine.
even 4x4 tiny Mitsubishi vans,
Tacoma’s everywhere,
And yes I drive a Tacoma too, I am pretty damn sure defender will run circles around my truck.
My point is, defender will be just fine and even more.
let’s give it a chance.
It’s not rugged, I get it, but nothing is rugged now days, and they are stiii out there having fun.

Some guys like decorated Subaru,
Some guys like nice pair of hiking boots, and some guys like to get there by motorcycle.

But they all get there and have fun.

The Defender and Tacoma aren't rivals. Each is for a different purpose. One is long wheelbase truck and one is short wheel base an SUV. Buy the one that fits your needs (or both!) Can a defender hold a full size refrigerator standing up?

 

[Colin Hughes]

The Defender and Tacoma aren't rivals. Each is for a different purpose. One is long wheelbase truck and one is short wheel base an SUV. Buy the one that fits your needs (or both!) Can a defender hold a full size refrigerator standing up?

That's why this thread has reached 125 pages. Someone says something nice and someone else just has to crap on it. I think Red Rover is fully aware these are different beasts but, in some instances, folks can't afford to buy more than one vehicle and will need to compromise. I'm really feeling for this poor horse, how many times has he been kicked to death now? Like I said somewhere way back ... if you like it, buy it, if you don't don't. No one is making you do anything, it's a free world.

 

[onemanarmy]

Its reached 125 pages because people are trying to compare this new land rover product to a Tacoma, wrangler, whatever.
They don't compete.
If you want/need a truck, you get a truck. If you want/need solid axles and removable body panels or a manual trans, get a wrangler.
The new pseudo Defender is a overly complex SUV in a world full of overly complex SUVs....so if you want that, get that.
A new Defender won't 'run circles' around a Tacoma. The only place the Defender MIGHT shine, is where a shorter wheel base is needed.
The new Defender COULD have competed with a much broader group, had they stayed true to the Series/Defender heritage......removable body panels, solid axles, manual trans, truck configuration, less reliance on tech and gadgets....all while still being able to roll 80 mph down the freeway in comfort.

 

[Todd780]

Owned 50 vehicles?
You’re 200 years old?

When did you even had time to actually drive any of them, let alone maintain them, between buying and selling?

Nah... When I was young I used to have a classic car to drive in summer and a beater for winter. And I used to sell both cars after about 6 months / 1 year.

I think at 1 point 10 years ago I had 3 cars. Plus I got an early start. My first two vehicles were purchased simultaneously when I was 14. A '49 and 53' Fargo.

I admit a few times my eyes were bigger than my stomach and after I dove into a few project I decided they were more than I wanted to bite off.

Funny enough, I recently saw a 1960 coupe deville I owned when I was 20 for sale. It hadn't changed in 20 years. I guess the guy that bought it felt it needed to much too...