New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[Victory_Overland]

@Doron is it entirely possible that the picture from the locked differential infotainment page is from one of the Rovers that actually made it through the obstacle without any problems; as stated by the video? I mean should we just assume since we only see one video of horrific off-road driving practices and then find out there are two Defenders who made the obstacle but were not shown that we are seeing the entire aspect of the situation?

Saying we are making excuses and cherry picking is no different then you taking this video wholeheartedly without question of anything other than failure. What how frustrated his Spotters are; they literally give up on him right before he smashes the bumper.

Here, for you fellow Jeep appreciators like myself; posted this video of a chap rocking an unlocked Jeep Wrangler Sport (yes, unlocked). @Doron pay specific attention to what an experienced and real understanding of vehicle capabilities and limitations. Meanwhile the majority of Jeep guys are dumping another $15-20k worth of suspension, axles, lockers, and 37" so they can keep up with the Jones's and not waste their time actually learning how to drive. Watch how effortless this guy flows this bone stock Jeep through a variety of fairly medium to difficult obstacles; I would say very difficult for the vast majority with an unlocked vehicle unless they truly have experience and understanding of their systems.

This, my friend, is true driving skills............or wait, nope, cuz its a Jeep, the Jeep is doing all the work through magic potions and chicken bone throwing and this guy is just along for the ride while the Jeep fairy dusts its way through the various obstacles because you don't need skills to drive so we all buy fully equipped vehicles that magically propel us around the planet all by themselves.

For the rest of us in reality world, I think we will all appreciate watching this guy and example of human and mechanical interface working in unison with what many would say can't be done without lockers. Fact is, 95% of the people who jump in an unlocked vehicle could not make any vehicle meet it's potential so they just lock it and skip fundamentals and then most use their lockers incorrectly to boot.

I give this guy props and pay attention to his modulation, momentum, braking, and route selection; no bling, no lockers, no fairy dust, imagine what and how he would drive a vehicle equipped to assist and complement his skills?

Stock Wrangler Sport w/TC; NO LOCKERS

 

[Blaise]

The Defender is different than other modern Rovers. The configurable terrain response allows you to manually lock the center and rear diff if you want to with the touch screen then they should stay fully locked as long as you want. The computer can decide to lock and unlock by itself like other modern Rovers if you haven’t manually locked which may or may not be what they did.

I stand corrected. However, I suspect somebody with that sort of driving 'style' is unlikely to have done so.

why are you taking it so personal?
You designed the new Defender?

Because we are 130+ pages into hate for a car which is hated for the sake of being hated. If they released a solid axle piece of garbage nobody would ever buy, the forums would be full of joy and they'd make negative money.

It's definitely not personal.

Stock Wrangler Sport w/TC; NO LOCKERS

That's how I drive. Bravo.

I've decided I'm donating Victory_Overland a 24 pack at the end of whatever challenging trail we go down this summer in the PNW.

 

[T-Willy]

Still trying to understand this system which I'm admittedly unfamiliar with, and thanks for the replies.

Question: Do the center and rear diff locks stay locked, or do they somehow disengage under a certain amount of torque / throttle?

I ask because of what appears to be two different descriptions.

"A system like this there is no 'manual' locking switch like in a traditional rig. The lockers will disable the moment he gasses it, as the truck doesn't know what's going on. "

and

"The configurable terrain response allows you to manually lock the center and rear diff if you want to with the touch screen then they should stay fully locked as long as you want."

 

[T-Willy]

@Doron

Stock Wrangler Sport w/TC; NO LOCKERS

This is how I'm accustomed to driving in more severe terrain -- center diff lock, lots of flex, brake modulation with throttle. It works. Nice example.

 

[Carson G]

Still trying to understand this system which I'm admittedly unfamiliar with, and thanks for the replies.

Question: Do the center and rear diff locks stay locked, or do they somehow disengage under a certain amount of torque / throttle?

I ask because of what appears to be two different descriptions.

"A system like this there is no 'manual' locking switch like in a traditional rig. The lockers will disable the moment he gasses it, as the truck doesn't know what's going on. "

and

"The configurable terrain response allows you to manually lock the center and rear diff if you want to with the touch screen then they should stay fully locked as long as you want."

You can manually lock them. However I’m not 100% sure if they will unlock at a certain throttle threshold.

 

[EricTyrrell]

Old (original?)VS New Defender

Well, at least it drives nice. I see the JLR apologists are out in force. Carry on boys.

 

[naks]

Yes,
But it’s not the case here.
It’s locked and the settings are right, at least this is what stated.

Gents, I asked the Youtube uploader to translate the clip, and he was kind enough to do so.

This photo showing the locked diffs is from the first 110 that went up the hill, with no drama. Another new Defender also got up the hill without drama (according to the uploader).

I commented on the video, and the uploader agrees, that the driver of the white 110 has never been off-road (confirmed by the driver himself in the video).

The 90 has a suspension lift and a rear locker (the narrator says this), wouldn't you agree that this is a far cry from a fair comparison?

Now that the clip has been translated, I would suggest that everyone watches it again to understand what was going on.

 

[Corgi_express]

You could continue blaming the user, but there ware 4 new Defenders with 4 different drivers and similar results.
All on the same line as the old 90/110 that made it up with no drama.

this is incorrect, as has been pointed out several times in this thread. Only one new Defender, the one driven by the inexperienced driver, had any issues. The others made it past the same obstacle no problem. You have repeatedly ignored this fact because it does not fit your narrative.

there’s nothing “apologist” about living in reality. Would a Wrangler Rubicon Have made it up the same obstacle even easier? Yeah probably. That doesn’t change that this driver has no idea what he is doing.

 

[DorB]

this is incorrect, as has been pointed out several times in this thread. Only one new Defender,.

No.
Look again at the video.
The uploader also stated 1 gasoline (white) and 3 diesel (grey) tested.

The novice driver in the white (gas) and experienced drivers at the diesel ones.

The bottom line is that all the high tech gizmos intended to compensate for driver lack of knowledge or experience didn’t actually worked.

If you need knowledge for activating all those nannies, then drive a cheaper “stupid” platform.

 

[naks]

...You could continue blaming the user, but there ware 4 new Defenders with 4 different drivers and similar results.
All on the same line as the old 90/110 that made it up with no drama. ...

Now you're just making things up: the first Defender (the blue one) in the video made it up without drama, and the 'instructor' says that later on two more also made it up without struggling (that may be in the comments section).

Only the white 110 struggled, and even the video's owner admits the driver was inexperienced. I think the driver appears in the video admitting that he's not driven off-road before.

Also, you can clearly see that the 90 has a suspension lift, and the narrator also indicates that it has a rear locker, so not a fair comparison.

 

[T-Willy]

Dismissing the video as biased is misplaced. It does have some value.

Regardless of driver experience, it does show some of known performance differences between IFS/IRS (teeter-tottering) and rigid axles (flex keeping wheels grounded) in severe terrain. That's useful to see.

And, while the inexperienced driving doesn't showcase new Defender's full capabilities, it does reveal some of the truck's potential vulnerabilities. That's also useful to see and understand.

For example, I'd now like to see if and the extent to which the truck struggles with searching, adjusting and wheel spin with a more experienced driver in that same terrain.

 

[Blaise]

^ Agreed. Would have much preferred to see a video similar to the stock JK vid shared by Victory - a 110 being driven by a competent driver.

I personally don't really need to see it as I know that the Defender is more capable than my LR3 and my LR3 will go anywhere I'd ever want to go. As I've asked a million times, where does anyone need the additional capability? I'm far more interested in off-road travel (the point of this website) than traversing obstacles in 4x4 parks.

 

[Blaise]

The button line is that all the high tech gizmos intended to compensate for driver lack of knowledge or experience didn’t actually worked.

If you need knowledge for activating all those nannies, then drive a cheaper “stupid” platform.

Nothing short of a self-driving off-roader will solve this.

If I drive a Ferrari 488 into Turn 1 on a racetrack at top speed without having touched the brakes, would you blame the driver or the stability control system when it hits the wall? Or the suspension design?

(This isn't even uncommon, I've passed far too many supercars in my 100hp miata, the same way I've passed Rubicons on the trail in my LR3)

 

[T-Willy]

As I've asked a million times, where does anyone need the additional capability? I'm far more interested in off-road travel (the point of this website) than traversing obstacles in 4x4 parks.

I'm of the same mind. If it can politely crawl up this terrain, then it's capable enough for my purposes. I rarely encounter terrain more severe than what's shown when touring.

 

[DieselRanger]

I agree, you can't really just look at individual posts; you have to look at the reports- all of which @T-Willy cites are incredibly clear- LR as a brand is horrible and clearly worse than Jeep and Toyota and basically anyone else.

Regarding numbers of posts about Jeeps- sure there will be some- I'm surprised there's not more- LR sold roughly 95,000 vehicles in the US last year, not bad, up actually, Jeep sold over 923,000. @DieselRanger please do take a fair look at jlwranglerforums.com what you'll find are people who are modifying and actually using their vehicle as it was intended. Much of the LR cites are discussing how to fit 20" rims and asking whether they should trade out their air bag system for coils.

there are actually a LOT more posts on various Jeep forums with a lot more "common"/"me too" catastrophic problems across people who post, many with brand new vehicles still under warranty, than I ever found for L494 and now L462. I specifically excluded reports from vehicles that were not of the current generation - so yeah, LR3/LR4 problems - not interested. D1/D2 problems - not interested. ZJ, WJ, WK Grand Cherokees - not interested. I was looking specifically at L494 RRS since that's the platform the D5 was built on and shares running gear with, which has been on sale in the US since 2014 and in Europe since 2012, WK2 JGCs since that was what was going to have the EcoDiesel. I was interested in any Td6 engine issues, any Terrain Response 2 problems, etc. Found very few and very few repeated problems or "me too" problems - none that weren't electronic.

As for Jeep mods - sure, lots of people modifying theirs. Good for them! I've got some Lucky8 bits on the way now myself - got the last of a current production run of rock sliders, which were spoken for before they even arrived in stock - so someone is buying them. Have seen D5s on the trail in multiple areas in Colorado - two others in the same day last year outside Crested Butte. Yes, three D5s on the same trails in the same day, not even for an organized outing or anything. Saw one the other day towing a 24 foot toy hauler/camper. Personally I like being one of the only people who actually takes advantage of its capabilities. I don't really care what other people are doing with theirs.