New gasser for Ford SD
- Thread starter bigskypylot
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Larry
Bigassgas Explorer
They certainly need one. Ford hasn’t had a decent gas engine since the day of the 351 and 460. Their modular V8’s of the 90’s on through today are disappointing in long term durability. They may work okay for retail but commercial customers are not digging their gassers at all. Very might maintenance engines.
Along those lines, GM has a new gasser coming as well. It too is in the 6.5 to 7.0L area with direct injection and possibly forced induction (not turbo). The Torque numbers that have been thrown around are up there with early Duramax torque. Crazy amount of torque for a gas engine under 8 liters. FCA too is said to be working on another V8 as well to replace the 5.7L. Not sure if it will fall under the 6.4 or above it.
Why all manufacturers investing money into larger V8’s? Because diesels emissions are getting tighter and tighter driving up cost almost beyond reach for many customers and durability is down. Many customers are returning to gasoline and the trend has been pointing that was for many years. There has been a trend around here where many customers trading in HD diesel pickups are leaving in lighter duty gasoline trucks. I’ve said it many times over the years, the group that buys the majority of the diesel-powered pickups is the retail customer that pulls a jet ski to the lake a few times a year, not fleets. Major fleets learned years ago, diesels weren’t worth owning. It is also amazing how many customers are begging for gasoline engines in medium duty trucks. Ford already offers the boat anchor V10 in their medium duty but it can’t be had with an Allison trans as the V10 spins too high of RPM for the Ally. Most commercial customers want the Allison for PTO provisions. Basically, the V10 doesn’t muster up any torque until it is spun so high it sounds like the pistons are swapping holes while the Allison torque converter has too much mass for those high RPM’s. GM will also offer their new gas engines on their upcoming medium duty truck close to when it is launched. Navistar will have a gasoline powered medium duty about the same time that is based on the same truck as the upcoming GM medium duty truck. The love affair for diesels is dying
Along those lines, GM has a new gasser coming as well. It too is in the 6.5 to 7.0L area with direct injection and possibly forced induction (not turbo). The Torque numbers that have been thrown around are up there with early Duramax torque. Crazy amount of torque for a gas engine under 8 liters. FCA too is said to be working on another V8 as well to replace the 5.7L. Not sure if it will fall under the 6.4 or above it.
Why all manufacturers investing money into larger V8’s? Because diesels emissions are getting tighter and tighter driving up cost almost beyond reach for many customers and durability is down. Many customers are returning to gasoline and the trend has been pointing that was for many years. There has been a trend around here where many customers trading in HD diesel pickups are leaving in lighter duty gasoline trucks. I’ve said it many times over the years, the group that buys the majority of the diesel-powered pickups is the retail customer that pulls a jet ski to the lake a few times a year, not fleets. Major fleets learned years ago, diesels weren’t worth owning. It is also amazing how many customers are begging for gasoline engines in medium duty trucks. Ford already offers the boat anchor V10 in their medium duty but it can’t be had with an Allison trans as the V10 spins too high of RPM for the Ally. Most commercial customers want the Allison for PTO provisions. Basically, the V10 doesn’t muster up any torque until it is spun so high it sounds like the pistons are swapping holes while the Allison torque converter has too much mass for those high RPM’s. GM will also offer their new gas engines on their upcoming medium duty truck close to when it is launched. Navistar will have a gasoline powered medium duty about the same time that is based on the same truck as the upcoming GM medium duty truck. The love affair for diesels is dying
proper4wd
Expedition Leader
I agree that a forced induction, direct injection, heavy built 7.0L plus gas V8 in the 500hp/700tq range would be where it's at for a HD pickup.
Land Rover has had a 500/500 5.0L direct injected supercharged V8 for 7 years now and it is a multi hundred thousand mile engine no problem. Add another 2.0L capacity and beef up the block and rotating assembly while restricting the operating range to under 5000rpm.... it would be perfect for a heavy truck. The mold is there.
Land Rover has had a 500/500 5.0L direct injected supercharged V8 for 7 years now and it is a multi hundred thousand mile engine no problem. Add another 2.0L capacity and beef up the block and rotating assembly while restricting the operating range to under 5000rpm.... it would be perfect for a heavy truck. The mold is there.
plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
Larry the 6.2 is turning out to be a great engine. I've had 351 and 460's, not near as good as then new 6.2's
Bubblegoose1
@PNWINFERNOPRO
I've owned two 2005+ V10s. Great, reliable, strong motors. The reason they are run in about every shuttle van and RV on the road. I would not touch an 04 or earlier V10, but would buy another 05+ any day. And, I am getting 10 MPG city/13 MPG hwy at 13,000 lbs plus flat-towing my Jeep GC. 
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Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
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Littlehouse
Adventurer
Where did you get the info on the new GM engine? I'm the retail customer you are talking about. I've got a 5.3l 1500 right now, and even though the rating is there, it's a little underpowered pulling the 24' toy hauler. I could step up to the 6.2, but I would rather take a leap into the HD market and be comfortable for the next 10 years, knowing I have the capability to easily tow the hauler or a boat. I would love the diesel, but driving to and from work 5 miles each way wouldn't make much sense.
Buliwyf
Viking with a Hammer
My 6.2 runs great. But we've had TWO of our 6.2's blow up at 80,000 miles. Mine ticks when cold. That's pretty normal for modern Fords though. So far mine runs great. If I can't blow it up, then the other two were flukes, or bad maintenance. I just past 80,000 miles this week.
Ford does NOT need more power, they need a more robust engine. The 7.0 will be normally aspirated with a low BMEP. You heard it here 1st. If you expect it to be faster or more powerful, you're going to be disappointed. It would be great if it was an aluminum block, deep skirt, DOHC (no fn cam phasers), engine, but that's a pipe dream.
The 351's and 460's were anemic dogs compared to the current 6.2L. Have you drivin the new truck? The 6.2 is perfect as is, just quit blowing up.
http://windsorstar.com/business/local-business/ford-pledges-600m-investment-in-windsor-plants
Ford does NOT need more power, they need a more robust engine. The 7.0 will be normally aspirated with a low BMEP. You heard it here 1st. If you expect it to be faster or more powerful, you're going to be disappointed. It would be great if it was an aluminum block, deep skirt, DOHC (no fn cam phasers), engine, but that's a pipe dream.
The 351's and 460's were anemic dogs compared to the current 6.2L. Have you drivin the new truck? The 6.2 is perfect as is, just quit blowing up.
http://windsorstar.com/business/local-business/ford-pledges-600m-investment-in-windsor-plants
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NitroExpress
Observer
Larry
Bigassgas Explorer
I don’t know about that. Sure the new ones run better, have more power and leak less oil but it seems fleets with boat loads of them don’t feel they are much better than the 5.4L or 6.8. My main fleet customer, UPS, bought several hundred stripped chassis from Ford last year with the 6.2 and 6.8 on the other hand, since 2004 my company sold UPS close to 20,000 GM powered stripped chassis for delivery vans. UPS also bought somewhere around 10,000 Freightliner chassis with GM engines as well. Not to say the GM engines never have any issues at all, but nothing like what they are seeing on the Ford engines. We have seen cam phaser’s blowing apart on the GM L96 6.0L’s and oil pump failures but not complete catastrophic engine failures out of nowhere.
I've owned two 2005+ V10s. Great, reliable, strong motors. The reason they are run in about every shuttle van and RV on the road. I would not touch an 04 or earlier V10, but would buy another 05+ any day. And, I am getting 10 MPG city/13 MPG hwy at 13,000 lbs plus flat-towing my Jeep GC.
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Well, that is not really the reason you see so many Fords in shuttle and RV applications. Ford does a great job of putting the right product, in the right place for the right price. There are only a handful of body builders that build shuttle bus bodies (El Dorado National, Champion just to name a few). Ford basically gives them free bailment pools of chassis to keep on hand with zero floor plan, which means upfitters do not pay any interest on the stripped chassis they have in stock waiting for orders to build on. The free floor plan continues onto the dealers that sell those type upfitted vehicles so they can keep them on their lots for months without paying a dime of interest. Same exact thing goes on in the RV side of the business. The fact that Ford is the last man standing with a gasoline A-class stripped chassis sure doesn’t hurt them any. Back on the commercial side of the business Ford also does a great job of heavily incentivizing leasing companies which push their products for fleet leases (ARI, GE, Penske, etc.). Look how many E-vans, Transits, F trucks and Fusion cars are on in fleet pools....Its not because they are the best vehicles in the world. Reasons like that is why so many upfitters across the board love Ford, not because they are great products but because they are cheap and FMC is easy to do business with from order inception, having the right products (many wheelbase choices, option package choices, etc.) to customer delivery even if that time frame is 2 years. The end user will never notice how cheap Fords really are but the middle guys in between FMC and the end user sure love the fat margins that they cannot make with other manufacturers. One of main reasons why Earthroamer and Sportsmobile like Fords so much but you will never hear any of them admit that. GM distributes their vehicles in a premium fashion where then end up costing more leaving less margins for upfitters and leasing companies. They also do not offer the desirable wheel bases when it comes to the truck side, which is foolish of GM. GM still thinks if they build "it" they will come but never has GM been easy to do business with. EVER! Ford is outstanding with marketing and distribution.....long term durability not so much. Meanwhile, FCA (RAM) is so dysfunctional as of late many wonder if FCA will still be around in 5 years.
Ya, a 5.3L is probably not enough tool to be yanking a toy hauler around. The upcoming GM V8 gas HD engine is one of the worse kept secrets in the industry for the past 18 months. I work on the commercial truck side of the Automotive Manufacturing business where there aren’t many secrets. Everybody pretty much has a good idea of what the other guys are doing pretty much at any given time
Exactly!
Larry,
Can I ask what business you are in? Plenty of truth to your statements.....but saying the 6.2 is not a reliable motor is news to me and I have worked with many fleet companies who run them. I have been out of that business a few years though so maybe as they have aged they have started having problems. I would argue though that the two best gas engines in that category are the 6.2 and gm 6.0.
Can I ask what business you are in? Plenty of truth to your statements.....but saying the 6.2 is not a reliable motor is news to me and I have worked with many fleet companies who run them. I have been out of that business a few years though so maybe as they have aged they have started having problems. I would argue though that the two best gas engines in that category are the 6.2 and gm 6.0.
Diesel emission tech might be a small part of the MSRP increase of HD trucks, but I think that price increase has more to do with tech features, comfort and loaded packages than anything else. We live in an era where a Toyota Tacoma now can be optioned out for $40k (granted there are more bare bones options that sell for a lot less). HD pickups, and pickups in general, have transitioned from being purely work tools to becoming luxurious family haulers and tow rigs; they get priced accordingly. Of course you can go buy an entry-level chassis pickup for work/commercial applications. The pricing on diesel options for those are still fairly accessible.
As for the love affair for diesels "dying," that's a bold statement, and one that most of the big manufacturers seemingly disagree with; I'm not sure why they are intending to bring diesel options to the mid-sized and full-sized markets if the so-called diesel love affair is truly over.
Larry
Bigassgas Explorer
I am a field service engineer/fleet service manager for a truck and engine manufacturer. You see our trucks and buses on the road every day. We were first known for agricultural equipment up until the 80’s. We are also the company that built the Powerstroke diesel up until Ford build their own 6.7L. I handle the UPS and GSA accounts and a couple school bus dealer conglomerates in the western US. I cover vehicles from stepvans with GM gasoline engines on up to Class 8 over the road semi with Cummins and our proprietary engines. We have several different divisions that use various powertrains from many different engine suppliers. When a person deals with hundreds or thousands of a widget they tend to form a different opinion than others that have exposure to one or a hand full of the same widget.
It is a bold statement but it is a very real statement. I must go on record to say that is the opinion of mine and not necessarily the opinion of my employer but I can tell you the major fleets that run Class 5 through Class 8 trucks are dying for something other than diesel. It is not the actual diesel they don’t want anymore, it is all the baggage and cost associated with today’s diesels. If you subscribe to any of the fleet industry mags or attend fleet conferences such as SAE, TCM, ATA, NTEA, etc. you will hear the cries for more gasoline powered larger vehicles. Modern diesels are an absolute expensive nightmare to maintain due to the aftertreatment systems used to clean them up to meet federal standards. Big fleets are tired of the excessive downtime and excessive cost to maintain them. Obviously, it is going to be a long time before there an alternative powertrain that can pull 80,000 lbs. down the interstate completely make diesels extinct but you see natural gas semis everyday on the interstate and probably don’t even realize it. Those are diesel engine architecture but they are spark ignited and run like a gasoline engine. The advantage of running spark ignition on natural gas, propane or gasoline is the fact the expensive aftreatment system is not required. The reality is not every vocation really needs a diesel which is exactly why UPS moved to gasoline engines in every GVWR a gasoline engine is offered. You can buy A LOT of gas for the savings of not going diesel. Same exact reasons why GM, Ford and PSI are all busy engineering new bigger gasoline engines. I can assure you there are some monster gasoline and gaseous engines out in the field being tested from 9 to 15L. More and more RFP’s coming out from fleets are strictly written for a gasoline powertrain. In many cases, right now today a gasoline engine doesn’t even exist in some of those applications….that is today, tomorrow will surprise may people.
The love affair is dying but you’re right, not in the retail segment. Right now diesels are becoming more and more popular and available in small retails vehicles but the driving factor is entirely…..
First, the retail onesie twosie customer strictly buys on emotions (WANT). Look how many times we have read over the years where people WANT a diesel in a Jeep, WANT a diesel in a Tacoma (Toyota is too smart and business savvy to offer a LD diesel in the US), WANT a diesel half ton truck, WANT a diesel lawn mower, coffee pot, blender, blah, blah, blah. Retail customers tend to be suckers so they might as well offer a diesel and make a buck while they can because if they don’t someone else just may. That is the business sense that GM used to justify the diesel Colorado. They had zero percent market share in mid-size trucks where if they wanted a piece of the pie they had to punt and punt hard…..now they have a large piece of the pie but still not a threat to the Tacoma. Is the bold desperate punt got to work for the long term? Time will tell. I can’t wait to see how many repeat customers will go back and buy their second RAM 1500 with the 3.0 diesel or Colorado diesel. You can’t blame manufacturers for offering something customers are willing to pay for.
Second, the more diesels the manufacturers offer in smaller vehicles the more it helps with CAFÉ across the board. Well, that was the thought up until recently. Who knows how things are going to go in the new administration. Regardless, don’t laugh at the people that buy a small diesel or hybrid because they think they are going to save money, save fossil fuels, save whales, save baby birds or whatever in the long run… instead thank them because if they didn’t the rest of is may not get our big V8 gas engines in trucks and sports cars.
Third, for those that think VW is the only one in the world that is cheating think again…..VW is just the one that got caught. Diesel emissions regulators probably won't get any lighter even with the current administration.
Lastly, don’t expect the trend of diesels in light vehicles to be wide spread or long lasting one (may go 5 to 10 years if that). LA and New York City are already talking about following London and Paris in the diesel engine ban while other municipalities will most likely follow. Probably not today or tomorrow but in the next decade. It does seem awkward to think a gasoline engine makes bunny huggers happier than a diesel.
Again, all of these reasons is why GM, Ford, PSI and several others are all busy engineering new bigger gasoline engines. The diesel cycle reminds me of Lambo doors. One day some pocket pants wearing chappie will pull up to a diesel pump in his rattily 2020 Jeep Wrangler while there will be a 30,000 lb. dump truck at the island next to him buying unleaded gasoline while they look at each other thinking each other is crazy.
Well there is a ton of speculation and opinion in there, and I'm not inclined to address all of it, mostly because many of these ideas have been discussed previously on this forum.
But for starters, I think you are under the assumption that diesel tech, specifically the emissions control, has reached a plateau or glass ceiling of sorts. I think we all agree that the current emissions-laden diesels are lacking some of the reliability of older diesels, but we tend to forget that the automobile industry has been through regulatory cycles like this before. In decades past, there were big pushes to make gasoline engines more green: reduce CO2 emissions; use clean (non-lead) fuel; and get better mpg's. Gasoline engines were forced to make leaps and advances to where they are today, where inline 4 turbo's are providing the same performance as 80's era V8's, all while producing less emissions and getting much better mpg. It really wasn't until the 2007-2008 period that diesel engines saw the same sort of regulatory pressure. Not counting the EGR, we've been living with diesel emissions technology for barely 7 years now, and already these newer designs have made improvements in reliability and mpg. Give it time, and I'm sure the engineers and designers will continue to improve and innovate these engines. If there truly was no development potential left with diesel engines, I don't see why big manufacturers would be putting the money and time into developing new diesel offerings outside of the 3/4 ton market (2.8l duramax, 5.0l cummins, 3.0 VM ecodiesel, supposed diesel offerings for Ford mid-sized and full-sized trucks).
European cities have enacted restrictive legislation on diesel vehicles because, for the longest time, there were few, if any, regulations on diesel emissions for most of those countries. The air quality has suffered greatly in those cities as a result. With the regulations as they exist here in North America, I don't foresee the same problem occurring here. Your implication that most of the major diesel engine makers are cheating emissions is based on the actions of a few. So far, the only company that was caught cheating was VW. The EPA has issued a notice of violation for FCA's VM motori Ecodiesel, though so far nothing has been conclusively proven yet. To date, none of the big domestic diesel makers (Cummins, Powerstroke, Duramax) have been charged with anything. You can speculate all you want about how they might be cheating, but that's all it is....speculation.
You're right that there are more options on the table for HD trucks and hauling than there were in years past: CNG, hyrbid gasoline, hybrid diesel, EV. Who knows, 10-20 years from now, HD trucks and commercial vehicles might be powered by something entirely different from what powers them today. However, your claim that gasoline engines are going to take over the HD/commerical market is way off...gasoline engines are never going to be as fuel efficient or as torquey as the other options (including diesel). You can add a few more gears to the transmission and use forced induction, but it's inherently a less efficient and less torquey design. So maybe there are some people who want a gasoline engine for work applications because its cheaper and easier to work on....but when fuel prices go up, and they will eventually go up, those people are going to turn to other options to power their work vehicles.