4WD Toyota Owner Magazine
Observer
What do you all think the majority of solenoid failures arise from (i.e., heat, water, dirt...or?) I've had solenoids fail but never knew exactly why; in my case, probably water ingress, but I could never be sure.
New Warn AIR COOLED Endurance 12.0 winch
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I Leak Oil
Expedition Leader
Solenoid failure? Only winches mounted or Rovers have solenoid failures...Oh wait, wrong thread...
I would bet most failures are due to water ingress and, probably more common, operator error. Yes, when someone constantly "blips" the switch that will foul the contacts like nothing else. We all know someone who does it.....
Jason T.
I would bet most failures are due to water ingress and, probably more common, operator error. Yes, when someone constantly "blips" the switch that will foul the contacts like nothing else. We all know someone who does it.....
Jason T.
ntsqd
Heretic Car Camper
Toyota Mini truck starters are famous for spark erroding their high current contacts. A winch relay really isn't any different.
The best would be to use the Kilovac type of contactor where the contacts are in a near total vacuum. No air to ionize = no arc. 4 of those would almost buy another winch.....
Contrary to common thought, the Ford starter solenoid style of relay is partly rebuildable. Just takes a drill of the right size and four #8's or #10's with nuts. Can usually flip the contacts over and buff off the contactor disc. On some it's even possible to flip the disc, others are staked in place.
The best would be to use the Kilovac type of contactor where the contacts are in a near total vacuum. No air to ionize = no arc. 4 of those would almost buy another winch.....
Contrary to common thought, the Ford starter solenoid style of relay is partly rebuildable. Just takes a drill of the right size and four #8's or #10's with nuts. Can usually flip the contacts over and buff off the contactor disc. On some it's even possible to flip the disc, others are staked in place.
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
I'm sure moister is a big factor.
My guess is that many others fail because they are underrated. My Warn and Ramsey are both each using 4 Ford type starter solenoids that I replaced the originals with. All 200amp continuous duty.
I've also noticed many winch electrical cables really aren't big enough, which would contribute to it as well.
I sealed them all with brush on plastic coating.
My guess is that many others fail because they are underrated. My Warn and Ramsey are both each using 4 Ford type starter solenoids that I replaced the originals with. All 200amp continuous duty.
I've also noticed many winch electrical cables really aren't big enough, which would contribute to it as well.
I sealed them all with brush on plastic coating.
Which tends to answer the question about why solenoids fail. Evacuated or not, the ones I have in my winch are pretty well sealed and I have not seen moisture as an issue. Failure is usually an electro-mechanical failure, i.e., failed contact pads as a result of arcing, and bouncing the controller forward to reverse (or blipping the controller to store the last few feet of cable) makes it worse. Its the nature of the beast that solenoids take some abuse when used to control winches.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Erosion of the contacts is certainly one common way mechanical relays fail, but springs, coils, terminals, internal wiring and the like can fail. Mostly the load contacts begin to deteriorate and the contacts fail open circuit. I've read that's the case on around 80% of the FMEA done on relays. The bulk of the remainder are between the contacts failing closed (IOW the contacts welded) and failed coils.madizell said:
4WD Toyota Owner Magazine
Observer
Some new info from Warn
This has been an enlightening thread; I've learned a lot already. I decided to ask Warn a few questions that have come up here, both mine and others.
--What is the major cause of solenoid failure?
ANS: Solenoid's don't fail per se, but under extreme running (which this winch will do), the coils heat up to the point that they drop the contacts out until they cool off...which would defeat the purpose of the Endurance winch. The Endurance uses a 3 Coil industrial style contactor made to run continuously.
--What temp does the 12.0 turn on at?
ANS: 100°C/212°F - Turns it off at 80°C/176°F
--What temp does it try to keep the winch at?
ANS: Keeps external motor case temperatures sub 200°F, which is about half of the critical temperature (internal is very variant due to the "hot spots" in the motor...meaning it depends on where you measure.
--What temps does a typical winch get to while under load, and how fast does it get there?
ANS: The fan kicks on after about 80 ft of "field winching" (3000 lbs or so...so 212°F), which is about one spool of rope. The endurance does this pull in about 6 and a half minutes although most winches are in the 8 minute range. At these loads, many winches won't do but one or two pulls before seriously degrading and/or destroying the motor. The Endurance will pull this load for thousands of feet without issue.
--Does heat impair amperage and voltage flow?
ANS: Heat equals increased resistance which impairs current (amperage) flow. Higher current flow due to excess heat causes voltage suppression which in turn causes more current flow, causing more heat, which impairs current flow more causing more voltage suppression, etc, etc. Keeping the motor cool keeps the mechanism from entering into this downward spiral.
--On the new D-shaped connector, will that be on all Warn winches from now on?
ANS: It is now the standard on new designs for full size trucks. Eventually, we hope to get it across line for all truck winches.
What I'm getting from people is they don't think heat is a problem. What does Warn's research or Warn say to that?
ANS: Heat is one of our largest service claims, we sell and/or service a lot of motors due to heat damage. Our 9.5ti winch which warns the user that they are reaching critical temperature has saved many a user from damaging the unit due to heat, but it requires they stop and let it cool prior to continuing. The Endurance allows them to keep going, no longer worrying about it. This product was developed through talking to users about this issue and recognizing their needs. We've seen users that have wrapped copper coils around the motors plumbed to their AC units, packed ice around the motors from their coolers, plumbed in their vehicle air compressors to the motors and on and on. Heat buildup is the primary reason that hydraulic winches are preferred for some applications where duty cycle is key......batteries are certainly more common than hydraulic pumps and infinitely easier to install and service. We've also tested our own product and most others in the field and found that most will only pull between 80 and 300 feet prior to melting down, the Endurance pulled over 2000 ft without any issue and upon inspection looked new afterwards.
This has been an enlightening thread; I've learned a lot already. I decided to ask Warn a few questions that have come up here, both mine and others.
--What is the major cause of solenoid failure?
ANS: Solenoid's don't fail per se, but under extreme running (which this winch will do), the coils heat up to the point that they drop the contacts out until they cool off...which would defeat the purpose of the Endurance winch. The Endurance uses a 3 Coil industrial style contactor made to run continuously.
--What temp does the 12.0 turn on at?
ANS: 100°C/212°F - Turns it off at 80°C/176°F
--What temp does it try to keep the winch at?
ANS: Keeps external motor case temperatures sub 200°F, which is about half of the critical temperature (internal is very variant due to the "hot spots" in the motor...meaning it depends on where you measure.
--What temps does a typical winch get to while under load, and how fast does it get there?
ANS: The fan kicks on after about 80 ft of "field winching" (3000 lbs or so...so 212°F), which is about one spool of rope. The endurance does this pull in about 6 and a half minutes although most winches are in the 8 minute range. At these loads, many winches won't do but one or two pulls before seriously degrading and/or destroying the motor. The Endurance will pull this load for thousands of feet without issue.
--Does heat impair amperage and voltage flow?
ANS: Heat equals increased resistance which impairs current (amperage) flow. Higher current flow due to excess heat causes voltage suppression which in turn causes more current flow, causing more heat, which impairs current flow more causing more voltage suppression, etc, etc. Keeping the motor cool keeps the mechanism from entering into this downward spiral.
--On the new D-shaped connector, will that be on all Warn winches from now on?
ANS: It is now the standard on new designs for full size trucks. Eventually, we hope to get it across line for all truck winches.
What I'm getting from people is they don't think heat is a problem. What does Warn's research or Warn say to that?
ANS: Heat is one of our largest service claims, we sell and/or service a lot of motors due to heat damage. Our 9.5ti winch which warns the user that they are reaching critical temperature has saved many a user from damaging the unit due to heat, but it requires they stop and let it cool prior to continuing. The Endurance allows them to keep going, no longer worrying about it. This product was developed through talking to users about this issue and recognizing their needs. We've seen users that have wrapped copper coils around the motors plumbed to their AC units, packed ice around the motors from their coolers, plumbed in their vehicle air compressors to the motors and on and on. Heat buildup is the primary reason that hydraulic winches are preferred for some applications where duty cycle is key......batteries are certainly more common than hydraulic pumps and infinitely easier to install and service. We've also tested our own product and most others in the field and found that most will only pull between 80 and 300 feet prior to melting down, the Endurance pulled over 2000 ft without any issue and upon inspection looked new afterwards.
One of these days, I would like to have such a conversation with Warn engineers while out in the field.
I can't argue with what they say and don't have access to their own service records, but I do see some market-speak in one or two of the responses. Refering to "other" winches without naming them doesn't give us a usable reference point. Most users today (and I recognize that I am also using a generality here) are using lay-down style winches rather than the more traditional hi-mount style (8274). These winches are built in several countries and have widely disparate build quality, so it is not very helpful to say that competitor winches overheated between 80 and 300 feet of pull. Low mount winches also heat up more rapidly than hi-mount style, so it would help to know what Warn is referencing. If Warn can not, for market liability reasons, say whose winches failed, perhaps they could underwrite a neutral field test and publish the results. Think of it as a presidential debate at the winch level.
The effects of heat on electrical conductivity is a fixture of physics. No argument that heat increases resistance. That's why wire size is rated to load, and why I always recommend using larger than stock cable for wiring up a winch. We all see the reality of heat and resistance without perhaps recognizing it for what it is when we select wire for automotive projects or house wiring.
Better in my opinion to create a winch that generates less heat while doing a given amount of work, rather than attempting to limit the useful cycle of the motor to operate only within a given heat range or, in the case in point in the first post, putting a fan in the system to help dissipate generated heat. If a winch motor overheats during any given pull, and if that given pull is within the expected performance range of the winch, then that limiting feature is one that should be published along with all the other performance specs so that consumers can chose wisely. Just as air pumps are rated in duty cycle, so should winch motors be rated so that we can know not only how much a winch can pull, but also how long it can pull it without failure. Put a winch under a constant strain, say maximum rating, and pull away until the motor reaches a predetermined percentage of critical heat -- and stop. The duty cycle of the motor has just been defined. It would be nice to know these things. Warn's responses above suggest that they already have this data.
How much heat a motor produces to do a given amount of work is dependent on a lot of things, but as a rule, I believe lower power rated motors will produce more heat trying to do a given job than would a higher power rated motor. That is, put a 2.5hp motor on an 8,000 winch and you will get more heat faster than if you have a 6hp motor on the same winch trying to do the same job. Bargain priced winches generally have smaller motors. That they might heat up faster or do less work before failing should be a given, not a surprise.
We should also consider that the repairs and field service issues that Warn sees are all from uncontrolled circumstances. We don't know what caused the service issues they see. My guess would be abuse and lack of operator understanding of the limits of the device, but what do I know. Point is, I would not be quick to draw conclusions from the types of problems seen by Warn without knowing the circumstances under which the problems arise. I personally believe that Warn makes the best winch available, but I also believe that some of Warn's own products are better than others in their own product line. It is just as important to choose the correct winch for your application as it is to choose the best manufacturer. After that, how and when the winch is used is up to the operator.
Particularly with lighter duty models, it is not too hard to overheat a winch motor, but it does take some degree of neglect or inexperience to do so. To create heat by winching is mandatory -- to overheat a winch motor is not necessary under any circumstances. We either choose to do it, or don't know any better, or don't pay enough attention, but it is still operator driven.
I can't argue with what they say and don't have access to their own service records, but I do see some market-speak in one or two of the responses. Refering to "other" winches without naming them doesn't give us a usable reference point. Most users today (and I recognize that I am also using a generality here) are using lay-down style winches rather than the more traditional hi-mount style (8274). These winches are built in several countries and have widely disparate build quality, so it is not very helpful to say that competitor winches overheated between 80 and 300 feet of pull. Low mount winches also heat up more rapidly than hi-mount style, so it would help to know what Warn is referencing. If Warn can not, for market liability reasons, say whose winches failed, perhaps they could underwrite a neutral field test and publish the results. Think of it as a presidential debate at the winch level.
The effects of heat on electrical conductivity is a fixture of physics. No argument that heat increases resistance. That's why wire size is rated to load, and why I always recommend using larger than stock cable for wiring up a winch. We all see the reality of heat and resistance without perhaps recognizing it for what it is when we select wire for automotive projects or house wiring.
Better in my opinion to create a winch that generates less heat while doing a given amount of work, rather than attempting to limit the useful cycle of the motor to operate only within a given heat range or, in the case in point in the first post, putting a fan in the system to help dissipate generated heat. If a winch motor overheats during any given pull, and if that given pull is within the expected performance range of the winch, then that limiting feature is one that should be published along with all the other performance specs so that consumers can chose wisely. Just as air pumps are rated in duty cycle, so should winch motors be rated so that we can know not only how much a winch can pull, but also how long it can pull it without failure. Put a winch under a constant strain, say maximum rating, and pull away until the motor reaches a predetermined percentage of critical heat -- and stop. The duty cycle of the motor has just been defined. It would be nice to know these things. Warn's responses above suggest that they already have this data.
How much heat a motor produces to do a given amount of work is dependent on a lot of things, but as a rule, I believe lower power rated motors will produce more heat trying to do a given job than would a higher power rated motor. That is, put a 2.5hp motor on an 8,000 winch and you will get more heat faster than if you have a 6hp motor on the same winch trying to do the same job. Bargain priced winches generally have smaller motors. That they might heat up faster or do less work before failing should be a given, not a surprise.
We should also consider that the repairs and field service issues that Warn sees are all from uncontrolled circumstances. We don't know what caused the service issues they see. My guess would be abuse and lack of operator understanding of the limits of the device, but what do I know. Point is, I would not be quick to draw conclusions from the types of problems seen by Warn without knowing the circumstances under which the problems arise. I personally believe that Warn makes the best winch available, but I also believe that some of Warn's own products are better than others in their own product line. It is just as important to choose the correct winch for your application as it is to choose the best manufacturer. After that, how and when the winch is used is up to the operator.
Particularly with lighter duty models, it is not too hard to overheat a winch motor, but it does take some degree of neglect or inexperience to do so. To create heat by winching is mandatory -- to overheat a winch motor is not necessary under any circumstances. We either choose to do it, or don't know any better, or don't pay enough attention, but it is still operator driven.
I Leak Oil
Expedition Leader
4WD Toyota Owner Magazine said:
Solenoids don't fail?! I usually don't get too excited about this stuff but that is just a load of bull.....2 of my friends and I have Warn 9000lb models, all three of us have had to replace or repair solenoids. When mine failed I didn't use it all winter so I think that's plenty of time for it to "cool" off.
Between this thing and the air compressor model I don't like the road of gimmicks that Warn is going down. I do think they make the best electrics out there but if the competition is eating into their market share they should push their strengths of product and customer support and maybe extend the factory waranty.
Jason T.
4WD Toyota Owner Magazine
Observer
I am truly enjoying this thread! Love the thoughtful and insightful responses!
This new winch needs to be tested in the field. So...
We are going to try and source one of these winches and put it on our new 80-series Land Cruiser build (after three years, my 80 is being retired from publication status, it has an M12000 on it. See pic link below). Senior Editor Ben Crockett is building this new truck more for expedition runs than Rubicon-style action; he lives in SoCal; he does a lot of wheeling around Las Vegas; so in theory a cooled winch can be put to the test while on his Cruiser.
Heat: everyone agrees it sucks. From laptops with chip/motherboard cooling fans to aftermarket oil cooler setups to pusher fans on radiators, etc, heat adversely affects just about everything. Lots of products that get hot have cooling apparutus built into them. So, if there is a redundancy in an item as critical to off-roading as the winch system, i.e. a fan, then why NOT cool a winch? Everything else gets cooling systems, so why NOT this? If the core winch is a reliable animal, why not add cooling to it anyway, assuming price point is not seriously raised? After all, if the fan should fail, the winch will still work (for awhile, no need to cut hairs). Personally, if this setup works in the field (TBD) then I would be stoked to have that extra measure of cooling involved. Is there anyone here who really would say, I'd rather have my winch run hotter than cooler?
Does a winch NEED to be cooled? Opinions clearly vary; although I'd refer to above, why not cool it as an extra measure of reliability? Maybe Warn plans on selling largely to the Middle Eastern market; after all, they sell by far the largest amount of Land Cruisers if not their other models there (this info from Toyota themselves) so maybe that's their plan.
I give a hearty thumbs up to Warn (and no, they don't advertise or are affiliated with us) simply for the fact that they are putting out new designs, new ideas, fresh winches. The Dual Force, the Endurance, they may yet be proven in battle like, say, an 8274, but as people have said Warn makes an excellent product and early bugs aside, who else is pushing the envelope? For those who want an utterly proven Warn, there's the 8274 and others, and that's great for the end user! But that's not to say improvements or innovations (sometimes confused with "gimmicks") can be made.
A lot of this comes from being a journalist; this is my job and I love it. I want to see, review and write about new stuff, not the same old product. I call this evolution of product, which I think is cool to watch. Some may fail the test of time or field, of course, including the Endurance. But I am also out in the field all the time. I am as unwilling to accept a poor winch design as anyone else; I have been hopelessly stuck in the past and only my winch got me out. An unreliable design is unacceptable; I'll be the first to say that.
What I love seeing here in this thread and others is how people dissect and analyze a product to think out possible weak spots. That's important, my engineer father is the same way.
There are tons of products out there today with features that were once derided or pooh-poohed yet became de rigeur and industry-wide (although I don't count those rubber ballsacks that hang from receiver hitches:sombrero: ). I remember when heim joints came from the farm tractor realm to off-road suspension. People were like, huh? But today they are well accepted. As yet, there is no logical reason to call an air cooled winch a stupid idea. They haven't been tested by the public, in the field. In one year, we will all know for sure if this is a flash in the pan or one for the ages...
Personally, I think it comes down to cost--how much more will it add and will it be worth that cost. Because the argument then becomes, I'll just shut off the winch for ten minutes to cool it off. If however it is cheap, then it becomes a worthwhile feature. Winches are expensive to replace after all, not to mention getting you out of trouble!
Here is a link to my 80 and some fun winch action. Old pics from 2006, the truck is different now (no brackets, etc) but the winch is the same, an M12000. Once the whole damn front of the truck was under water, I had to go chest deep to retrieve the hook and plug in the remote; it got me out--see pic. There's also a turtled episode as well as a gnarly mud trench. Full photos here, winch stuff is about halfway down the page:
http://4wdtoyotaowner.com/FZJ80.html
I'm serious, I am enjoying this informative thread and am in no way arguing or disputing opinions! I am seeing an editorial column coming about new off-road products and how people think about them. They're great; keep them coming!
Cheers,
This new winch needs to be tested in the field. So...
We are going to try and source one of these winches and put it on our new 80-series Land Cruiser build (after three years, my 80 is being retired from publication status, it has an M12000 on it. See pic link below). Senior Editor Ben Crockett is building this new truck more for expedition runs than Rubicon-style action; he lives in SoCal; he does a lot of wheeling around Las Vegas; so in theory a cooled winch can be put to the test while on his Cruiser.
Heat: everyone agrees it sucks. From laptops with chip/motherboard cooling fans to aftermarket oil cooler setups to pusher fans on radiators, etc, heat adversely affects just about everything. Lots of products that get hot have cooling apparutus built into them. So, if there is a redundancy in an item as critical to off-roading as the winch system, i.e. a fan, then why NOT cool a winch? Everything else gets cooling systems, so why NOT this? If the core winch is a reliable animal, why not add cooling to it anyway, assuming price point is not seriously raised? After all, if the fan should fail, the winch will still work (for awhile, no need to cut hairs). Personally, if this setup works in the field (TBD) then I would be stoked to have that extra measure of cooling involved. Is there anyone here who really would say, I'd rather have my winch run hotter than cooler?
Does a winch NEED to be cooled? Opinions clearly vary; although I'd refer to above, why not cool it as an extra measure of reliability? Maybe Warn plans on selling largely to the Middle Eastern market; after all, they sell by far the largest amount of Land Cruisers if not their other models there (this info from Toyota themselves) so maybe that's their plan.
I give a hearty thumbs up to Warn (and no, they don't advertise or are affiliated with us) simply for the fact that they are putting out new designs, new ideas, fresh winches. The Dual Force, the Endurance, they may yet be proven in battle like, say, an 8274, but as people have said Warn makes an excellent product and early bugs aside, who else is pushing the envelope? For those who want an utterly proven Warn, there's the 8274 and others, and that's great for the end user! But that's not to say improvements or innovations (sometimes confused with "gimmicks") can be made.
A lot of this comes from being a journalist; this is my job and I love it. I want to see, review and write about new stuff, not the same old product. I call this evolution of product, which I think is cool to watch. Some may fail the test of time or field, of course, including the Endurance. But I am also out in the field all the time. I am as unwilling to accept a poor winch design as anyone else; I have been hopelessly stuck in the past and only my winch got me out. An unreliable design is unacceptable; I'll be the first to say that.
What I love seeing here in this thread and others is how people dissect and analyze a product to think out possible weak spots. That's important, my engineer father is the same way.
There are tons of products out there today with features that were once derided or pooh-poohed yet became de rigeur and industry-wide (although I don't count those rubber ballsacks that hang from receiver hitches:sombrero: ). I remember when heim joints came from the farm tractor realm to off-road suspension. People were like, huh? But today they are well accepted. As yet, there is no logical reason to call an air cooled winch a stupid idea. They haven't been tested by the public, in the field. In one year, we will all know for sure if this is a flash in the pan or one for the ages...
Personally, I think it comes down to cost--how much more will it add and will it be worth that cost. Because the argument then becomes, I'll just shut off the winch for ten minutes to cool it off. If however it is cheap, then it becomes a worthwhile feature. Winches are expensive to replace after all, not to mention getting you out of trouble!
Here is a link to my 80 and some fun winch action. Old pics from 2006, the truck is different now (no brackets, etc) but the winch is the same, an M12000. Once the whole damn front of the truck was under water, I had to go chest deep to retrieve the hook and plug in the remote; it got me out--see pic. There's also a turtled episode as well as a gnarly mud trench. Full photos here, winch stuff is about halfway down the page:
http://4wdtoyotaowner.com/FZJ80.html
I'm serious, I am enjoying this informative thread and am in no way arguing or disputing opinions! I am seeing an editorial column coming about new off-road products and how people think about them. They're great; keep them coming!
Cheers,
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
x2 on the market speak. Good example here:
"The Endurance uses a 3 Coil industrial style contactor made to run continuously."
There's nothing exceptional there. Continuous duty solenoids are nothing unusual.
I agree that they are pretty vague on who's/what type of winches are failing so quickly. As I and others have mentioned, typical electrical cables are sized too small. Including Warn's, at least in the past. Those will kill a winch. I've never seen a winch mfg provide in the user manual what an acceptable volt drop is between the winch and battery. Granted, I haven't looked at every manual out there, but that would go a long way towards motor longevity. So in addition to the winch construction, they aren't taking in to account how the winch is hooked up.
A real comparison would require exactly the same size/length cables connected the same way. Same alternator output, same battery, verification that voltage at the winch is the same, and a number of other factors that could be difficult to do in the field.
I bet you dollars to doughnuts that when those winches come in for repair they don't have all the data on how it was installed.
It's good that they want to use the same controller connector across all models. Just too bad they've chosen a proprietary one.
On the fan cooled issue specifically, I'm not interested in it, it wouldn't be a selling point for me. But if others like it, I really couldn't care less.
One thing that people should keep in mind though is that, as with any "safety" device that you come to rely on, it tends to make you careless unless you keep a very high level of awareness.
There's evidence that since the advent of airbags, anti-lock brakes and such, people are more reckless/careless drivers. Synthetic winch rope, people get used to handling it bare handed, being not as careful around it when under tension, then carry over those traits when working with someone who still uses wire rope. The fan cooling would be another thing like that. With a "conventional" winch you learn to let it cool, not over work it. If you're in the habit of not needing to do that because of the fan, it would be really easy to destroy your winch when the fan dies, because you aren't used to letting your winch motor cool down and you run it for too long.
One major problem is electric winches in general, it's like trying to drive a square peg in to a round hole. They aren't designed for, and aren't capable of being, a serious work winch. They are for occasional use.
"The Endurance uses a 3 Coil industrial style contactor made to run continuously."
There's nothing exceptional there. Continuous duty solenoids are nothing unusual.
I agree that they are pretty vague on who's/what type of winches are failing so quickly. As I and others have mentioned, typical electrical cables are sized too small. Including Warn's, at least in the past. Those will kill a winch. I've never seen a winch mfg provide in the user manual what an acceptable volt drop is between the winch and battery. Granted, I haven't looked at every manual out there, but that would go a long way towards motor longevity. So in addition to the winch construction, they aren't taking in to account how the winch is hooked up.
A real comparison would require exactly the same size/length cables connected the same way. Same alternator output, same battery, verification that voltage at the winch is the same, and a number of other factors that could be difficult to do in the field.
I bet you dollars to doughnuts that when those winches come in for repair they don't have all the data on how it was installed.
It's good that they want to use the same controller connector across all models. Just too bad they've chosen a proprietary one.
On the fan cooled issue specifically, I'm not interested in it, it wouldn't be a selling point for me. But if others like it, I really couldn't care less.
One thing that people should keep in mind though is that, as with any "safety" device that you come to rely on, it tends to make you careless unless you keep a very high level of awareness.
There's evidence that since the advent of airbags, anti-lock brakes and such, people are more reckless/careless drivers. Synthetic winch rope, people get used to handling it bare handed, being not as careful around it when under tension, then carry over those traits when working with someone who still uses wire rope. The fan cooling would be another thing like that. With a "conventional" winch you learn to let it cool, not over work it. If you're in the habit of not needing to do that because of the fan, it would be really easy to destroy your winch when the fan dies, because you aren't used to letting your winch motor cool down and you run it for too long.
One major problem is electric winches in general, it's like trying to drive a square peg in to a round hole. They aren't designed for, and aren't capable of being, a serious work winch. They are for occasional use.
Last edited:
762X39
Explorer
A lot of valid points have been brought up regarding electric winches in this thread. Something that has been alluded to but not covered as to why is the limited duty cycle of electrical winches and heat being the enemy.
Electrical winches tend to have a short duty cycle and severe overheating because (and I am referring to the typical install of a 12 volt system with 1 or 2 batteries) is the fact that the engine powered alternator cannot keep up with the load a winch puts on the system. When under load the winch can easily draw 200 amps out of the system and no alternator can replenish the battery fast enough to keep the voltage above 12 volts.Once the voltage drops, ohms law finds another way to keep up the power (watts or volt/amps). If the winch draws 200 amps at 12 volts it will draw 240 amps at 10 volts and so the battery is drawn down even faster while the wire and winch motor start to cook. For my money, a 24 volt or hydraulic winch is the only solution for more than casual use.
This doesn't mean a 12 volt winch is useless but it explains why they fail so often and why 24 volt or hydraulic systems rarely if ever fail due to overheating.
Electrical winches tend to have a short duty cycle and severe overheating because (and I am referring to the typical install of a 12 volt system with 1 or 2 batteries) is the fact that the engine powered alternator cannot keep up with the load a winch puts on the system. When under load the winch can easily draw 200 amps out of the system and no alternator can replenish the battery fast enough to keep the voltage above 12 volts.Once the voltage drops, ohms law finds another way to keep up the power (watts or volt/amps). If the winch draws 200 amps at 12 volts it will draw 240 amps at 10 volts and so the battery is drawn down even faster while the wire and winch motor start to cook. For my money, a 24 volt or hydraulic winch is the only solution for more than casual use.
This doesn't mean a 12 volt winch is useless but it explains why they fail so often and why 24 volt or hydraulic systems rarely if ever fail due to overheating.
762X39 said:
It is correct for the overwhelming majority of vehicles to say that the alternator will not provide sufficient current to supply a winch under a reasonable load. 200 amps is a bit low I think. Most winches easily draw 350 to 450, under maximum strain.
However, it is not the job of the alternator to fuel the winch. That's what the battery does. The alternator will just try to replenish the battery when draw exceeds the battery's ability to supply. Because the winch is such a big consumer of power, almost all electrical winch setups are net negative power systems under load. Including 24V systems. You can't make direct comparisons between 12V and 24V systems because the winches don't use the same electrical motors, even when the same winch is available both ways. I don't think arguing between 12 and 24V systems gets us anywhere, really, if for no other reason than it is not all that simple to install a 24V electrical system on a 12V vehicle. You sure can't do it with your average daily driver Expo ship. Some extreme competition vehicles do use 24V/12V systems, but they are rare.
For the most part, it is not necessary for an electrical system to provide sufficient power to fully support a winch at full draw for extended or indefinite periods of time. One of several things will happen: in short order you will be unstuck; in short order your stuck will improve and the load on the winch will go down fast; your winch will overheat. There are probably other possibilities as well. The point being that unless we find ourselves in winch competitions, use of our winch boils down to only a few seconds of use anyway. Most good batteries will provide power long enough to get the job done, and if supported by a high output alternator, the "long enough" period is even longer.
Our periods of use are usually short enough and our load on the winch low enough that we don't run into Ohm's Law, resistance increases due to heat, and most of the other problems attendant with use of electric winches. Not that they are not present, but that they are not really problems.
Yes, system voltage will drop below 12V if not properly supported, but let me give you an example: I have a dual Optima setup, very heavy gauge wiring, a 220A alternator, and have done everything I can think of to improve my chances of staying at or above 12V during winching. Still, with all this going for me, in a sustained winch pull I will see voltage eventually drop to 11 volts. I consider this better than what I used to have with the same winch, one battery, and a 60A alternator and stock wiring where the voltage dropped to 11 if I touched the control button, and as low as 9 under a hard pull. I burned up two stereos before I figured it all out. Certainly, with a drop in voltage, amperage demands go up and performance drops, but no system I have ever seen will provide the needed 450 amps continuously.
I have mentioned elsewhere that I once winched a quarter mile up a 40 degree incline during competition without loss of winch performance. That's 1320 feet more or less. Compare this to what Warn claims for its new cooled winch (1000 to 2000). Warn does not give you the details of their pull. I will you the details of mine to put the feat in context. With 160 feet of rope on the spool and 140 or so actually usable, no single pull up that quarter mile could have been longer than 140 feet even if we pulled the full length of the usable rope without stopping. We actually did that a few times, by the way, but only because we had an 8274 and a very straight in front line of pull and did not have an issue with rope stacking. Most of the time, we pulled more like 80 to 100 feet at a time before resetting the rope due to available pull points. It took as much time to reset the rope as it did to pull it in under load, so we were using the motor no more than 50% of the time, and pull times were in the one or two minute range. Two minutes on, two off, is not that bad for a high performance winch. I kept the rpm at around 1,600 at all times, so the alternator was constantly at maximum ability. We did not have the ability to drive the wheels (rear driveshaft dropped) so it was all done on the winch.
Of course, the load was nowhere near the high end of the limit. The vehicle is 5,300 pounds, but the incline was free of obstacles generally, and the incline was a bit less than 50%, so the load on the winch should have been no more than around 2,600 or so pounds and may have been more like 2,000. That does not strain the winch nor does it tend to generate maximum heat in use. It also creates an electrical demand that is just about within the ability of the alternator to provide, so the batteries were not rapidly depleted, if they were depleted at all. Since our on board electronics and radio did not fail, I assume we did not drop voltage all that much. I don't remember seeing voltage below 12V at any time, but was not watching the volt meter closely.
So, even under competition conditions, we don't necessarily strain the winch or the electrics too severely. We can but we don't have to and most of the time I would suspect we don't.
But if that's so, why is it that the principal mode of failure in the field for Warn is excess heat? I would say that we would have to know how the winch was installed and how it was used, how is was maintained, and as much information as possible about the failure to know if it was mere heat (i.e., heat alone) that caused the failures. Ambient temperatures, solar exposure, mud and debris coverage on the motor, clean battery terminals and solid connections, all add to the problem, even with a good working winch. More often, would be my guess, someone tried to make a difficult pull with too much cable on the drum, which handicaps the winch going in, upping the electrical load and generated heat when it was not otherwise necessary to do so. Pulling 4,000 pounds on the top wrap on the drum is abusive. Bless Warn for backing up its product if abused in this fashion.
Sorry for the epistle, but both the scientist in me and my experience with winching under extreme circumstances suggest to me that while heat is of course a serious issue with winching, it is rarely much of a villain if the operator sets up recovery properly and does not ask more from the winch than it was built to provide. I would gladly see winch motors that stay cool under hard use, but I don't see adding an ancillary cooling system (adding complexity and cost to an already expensive system) as an answer for the masses. If I was entering a winch challenge event, perhaps. Otherwise, nope.