newbie hi lift questions

[emmodg]

Are we still talking about all this?

Chains:
- Good for pulling logs/debris off trail
- Good for anchoring to stone, rock, sharp frame rail, etc. as a dead man (straps can and will abraid)

Like I said a few times now - they ARE dangerous in a dynamic load! Period. Straps are safe for dynamic AND static load. Period.

Strap friendly. Chain? Not so much!

Some great resources can be found about chain, it's use and various grades by searching under "lifting" and "crane rigging".

 

[michaelgroves]

Like I said a few times now - they ARE dangerous in a dynamic load! Period. Straps are safe for dynamic AND static load. Period.

Strap friendly. Chain? Not so much!

Geez, all this certainty!

Straps stretch. So you have a hi-lift jack attached to a giant bungee cord. Not so friendly. I mean, it's not sooo bad if the strap breaks. But what if something else breaks?

Chain is better if its SWL is higher than the jack's capacity and it's in good condition. But it's heavy, and horrible to deal with. Best overall would be synthetic non-stretch rope, such as the usual UHMWPE winch lines, IMO.

And, as has been said before, don't use chain if there's a reasonable chance of shock loads, such as pulling with another vehicle.

Your original question has been answered, I think? But the chain/strap issue is important and, it seems, has equally fervent opinion on both sides!

 

[emmodg]

Yes Micheal, it is certainty. (It's simple physics really.)

Straps are "bungee-like" if you want to use that term. They do stretch when used, be it by dynamic "snatch", static pull, or even HiLift winching. And you're right, they could be unfriendly if they break, but again, do you want a strap breaking right at the "family jewels" or a chain? Yep! UHMWPE, such as winch extentions would be preferable; more of an investment than some care to tackle but preferable. (Actually, I've had winch extensions start to burn when using knot sinnets[daisy chain] to "adjust" length in a HiLift winch exercise! I've also seen an instructor use a multi-tool as a toggle only to have it burn the extension and snap!)

What if something else breaks? I don't know? What if you are abducted by aliens? All sorts of things can happen when you are involved in a recovery. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaall sorts of things! The object, Micheal, is to minimize as many potential "bad things" from happening.

Keep recovery safe and keep it simple.

 

[michaelgroves]

Yes Micheal, it is certainty. (It's simple physics really.)

Straps are "bungee-like" if you want to use that term. They do stretch when used, be it by dynamic "snatch", static pull, or even HiLift winching. And you're right, they could be unfriendly if they break, but again, do you want a strap breaking right at the "family jewels" or a chain? Yep! UHMWPE, such as winch extentions would be preferable; more of an investment than some care to tackle but preferable. (Actually, I've had winch extensions start to burn when using knot sinnets[daisy chain] to "adjust" length in a HiLift winch exercise! I've also seen an instructor use a multi-tool as a toggle only to have it burn the extension and snap!)

What if something else breaks? I don't know? What if you are abducted by aliens? All sorts of things can happen when you are involved in a recovery. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaall sorts of things! The object, Micheal, is to minimize as many potential "bad things" from happening.

Keep recovery safe and keep it simple.

I was being polite when I was referring to your certainty. But you're spreading what I think is dangerous advice. No-one likes chain if it breaks, any more than they like receiver hitch bolts if they break, or shackles if they break. Make sure your rigging strength is well over the capacity of the pulling device, be it a powered winch or a hi-lift.

But if something does break (and your little comment about aliens is odd), then what you don't want is everything to be loaded up on a 3-ton elastic band. That's why you don't use stretchy winch cable. Or straps.

It's, as you say, simple physics.

 

[emmodg]

Micheal, you seem to like to presuppose a great deal in your comments.

Who's using 3-ton strap?

I'm not. Are you?

We were talking about strap vs. chain in a HiLift winch rig. You then posit: "What if something else breaks? Well, that would be for anther topic. What if the HiLift breaks? What if a shackle breaks? What if an anchor fails? What if you have a heart attack in the middle of the winching? I just wanted to stay on task with this thread, ie strap and chain use. We can address every possible failure though if you want.

Micheal, I'm not using 3-ton strap. I'm not "loading" everything upon a 3-ton strap, and I didn't tell anyone to do so. And now that you have accused me of disseminating dangerous information maybe you could tell me and everyone else here what that dangerous information was. (When you make comments like "...you're spreading what I think is dangerous advice." - please, don't "think" that to be the case, you better "know" that's the case and be able to reference it.)

 

[ntsqd]

snippage....

Straps are "bungee-like" if you want to use that term. They do stretch when used, be it by dynamic "snatch", static pull, or even HiLift winching.

Care must be taken when making a sweeping general statement like this. While it is true that all straps stretch, the amount that they stretch can vary by a very large degree. Lifting straps and "Tree Saver" straps are designed to have as little stretch as possible. Dynamic recovery straps are designed to stretch and absorb any shock loading. Lumping them all in one pile without qualifying the variation available is misleading.

----------------------------

If you're determined to carry a Hi-Lift, buy the tallest one that you can fit in/on the vehicle. I can't say that I've ever heard someone say "Gee, I wish that I had a shorter Hi-Lift". I have used all that a 60" Hi-Lift had to offer unstucking a friend's truck and was wishing for another 8 inches or so. I wish that I could blame that day on alcohol, but we were both sober....

 

[michaelgroves]

Micheal, you seem to like to presuppose a great deal in your comments.

Who's using 3-ton strap?

I'm not. Are you?

We were talking about strap vs. chain in a HiLift winch rig. You then posit: "What if something else breaks? Well, that would be for anther topic. What if the HiLift breaks? What if a shackle breaks? What if an anchor fails? What if you have a heart attack in the middle of the winching? I just wanted to stay on task with this thread, ie strap and chain use. We can address every possible failure though if you want.

Micheal, I'm not using 3-ton strap. I'm not "loading" everything upon a 3-ton strap, and I didn't tell anyone to do so. And now that you have accused me of disseminating dangerous information maybe you could tell me and everyone else here what that dangerous information was. (When you make comments like "...you're spreading what I think is dangerous advice." - please, don't "think" that to be the case, you better "know" that's the case and be able to reference it.)

I think you know what I meant when I referred to a "3-ton elastic band" - I meant an elastic band under 3 tons of load (which is what a high-lift jack might exert), ready to launch the hi-lift jack into orbit, possibly bouncing off a forehead on its way. Not an elastic band with a breaking strain of 3 tons.

And similarly, my overall point is very clear - don't use anything elastic when you are winching (whether it is electric, hydraulic, hand-powered, or whatever). The stretchier the strap, the bigger the danger. Whereas a chain safely within its WLL isn't a problem when you have a steady pull, free of significant shock loads.

Why did I posit something else breaking? Because the use of a chain versus a strap makes a very big difference if something else breaks! (If you can't see why it's relevant, don't make out that I'm stupid).

Finally, I deliberately try to use phrases like "I think" and "IMO" when I am discussing something. It's an acknowledgement that I am not always right, even when I think I am, and that I am open to changing my mind in the face of superior evidence or reasoning. If you think that makes my arguments weaker, so be it.

 

[emmodg]

Micheal: "And similarly, my overall point is very clear - don't use anything elastic when you are winching (whether it is electric, hydraulic, hand-powered, or whatever). The stretchier the strap, the bigger the danger. Whereas a chain safely within its WLL isn't a problem when you have a steady pull, free of significant shock loads."

Now, I can think of 2 highly respected "trainers" , Burke and Elfstrom, who teach winch, and HiLift recovery and involve elastic, (as you call them), straps. I guess they're wrong as you would not use them? What are your "qualifications" Micheal and how long have you been a trainer? (Sorry if I'm short with you but I teach recovery to the military and when someone accuses me of disseminating dangerous info., I take it somewhat personally and assume they are trainers or some kind of expert as well.)

Out of all the recoveries I guess you've been involved with, how many of these involved winching were the pulls were "steady" and divorced from all shock loads? Ever seen a truck "outrun" a winch cable in a self recovery? Ever seen a HMVEE suddenly move unintentionally during winching? I can't imagine using a chain of all things in these scenarios!

ntsqd:

How is it wrong to say: "Straps are "bungee-like" if you want to use that term. They do stretch when used, be it by dynamic "snatch", static pull, or even HiLift winching."

That is a true and important statement. It is not a "generalization" it's a fact. And how is "Lumping them all in one pile without qualifying the variation available...misleading."? You are right, recovery straps do have different amounts of inherent stretch. You do need to be aware of the amount. What is your point? If I had mentioned that every recovery strap has different amounts of inherent stretch, how is that not the same thing as saying that every strap stretches?

Look guys. I know I come off sounding arrogant at times, and I don't mean to be a know-it-all but recovery is an important topic and those that give advise should make sure their advise is correct.

 

[spencyg]

Michea

Look guys. I know I come off sounding arrogant at times, and I don't mean to be a know-it-all but recovery is an important topic and those that give advise should make sure their advise is correct.

Maybe heeding your own advice would be helpful about now.

Both Michael and NTS have many years of well documented experience. You on the other hand just showed up and started causing a ruckus and prefer to just tell people they're wrong, citing some mysterious knowledge somehow associated with training some military somewhere about how to winch out an armored truck. Hardly makes you either an authority, or somebody who deserves any respect in this topic whatsoever. Back off or provide some concrete evidence of your rather unique point of view.

Just my instigating $0.02.

Spence

 

[neverestablished]

So would a 30k strap be better to use than a 20K strap since it would have less stretch?
Since your using a hi-lift there is only about 3-4' of usable pull and you wouldn't want all of it eaten up by the elasticity.

 

[michaelgroves]

Now, I can think of 2 highly respected "trainers" , Burke and Elfstrom, who teach winch, and HiLift recovery and involve elastic, (as you call them), straps. I guess they're wrong as you would not use them?

If they ever suggest using elastic straps with a winch, then yes, they are wrong in my opinion. I don't know either of those gentlemen, but I have heard of Bill Burke's excellent reputation. So I would imagine that he would tell people never to use any stretchy components when winching.

Out of all the recoveries I guess you've been involved with, how many of these involved winching were the pulls were "steady" and divorced from all shock loads? Ever seen a truck "outrun" a winch cable in a self recovery? Ever seen a HMVEE suddenly move unintentionally during winching? I can't imagine using a chain of all things in these scenarios!

Hmm, I didn't suggest using a chain when winching. I said a chain suits applications where it's not subjected to big shock loads. I can't imagine there being a shockload if the truck outruns a pull by a hi-lift jack... There'd more likely be a cheer from the poor bloke doing the pulling.

Look, I am sure you could construct a very special scenario using a hi-lift jack, where the truck would be falling all over the place and chain would be inappropriate. In a situation like that, I'd be looking at very different ways of solving the problem anyway, because whatever you use on the hi-lift, it's going to be dangerous.

But mostly, you're going to be pulling the truck off a rock or out of a hole, and while the load will vary, it won't be shock loads, it will just be taking up relative slack.

Look guys. I know I come off sounding arrogant at times, and I don't mean to be a know-it-all but recovery is an important topic and those that give advise should make sure their advise is correct.

I know you're all training the military and stuff, while I'm just a middle-aged dude who would hardly recognise a winch if he saw it, but don't worry, you really don't come across as a know it all. As long as you persist in suggesting that it's ok to pull on any kind of elastic strap or rope with the hi-lift, I'm going to continue to disagree with you. If any part of your rigging fails, the elastic part makes a missile out of the rest of it.

 

[michaelgroves]

So would a 30k strap be better to use than a 20K strap since it would have less stretch?
Since your using a hi-lift there is only about 3-4' of usable pull and you wouldn't want all of it eaten up by the elasticity.

Short answer is (IMO), use neither! But it's an interesting question about which one would impart more energy in the event of a rigging failure elsewhere. Both of them would only be loaded to the capacity of the hi-lift, so they might well have similar energies. I am sure someone here will have a more accurate idea!

But your point about not using up your usable pull is quite right - other things being equal, the 30K would be better. (I've just thought, I'm assuming that these straps are designed such that the 30K would stretch by 1/3rd less than the 20K, for any given load. That might not be the case).

 

[ntsqd]

I believe it was Mr. Brady who made the point that the dynamic strap should be matched to the vehicle. If you use one rated too low it will stretch excessively and possibly fail. If you use one rated too high then it won't stretch enough and will put too much impact-like dynamic load on the attaching points.

So if you're planning ahead to use a strap with a Hi-Lift for winching purposes you need to keep this in mind when selecting the strap. It very well could be that you will need two straps. One for dynamic recoveries and one for hand-winching. At that point I would bail from the thought of using a strap for the winching and take Michael's suggestion. Use a winch extension line or cable instead. Little to no stretch in those and much more suited to the job.

 

[emmodg]

Maybe heeding your own advice would be helpful about now.

Both Michael and NTS have many years of well documented experience. You on the other hand just showed up and started causing a ruckus and prefer to just tell people they're wrong, citing some mysterious knowledge somehow associated with training some military somewhere about how to winch out an armored truck. Hardly makes you either an authority, or somebody who deserves any respect in this topic whatsoever. Back off or provide some concrete evidence of your rather unique point of view.

Just my instigating $0.02.

Spence

So all I need to do is "document" my experience to satisfy you? What if I make my own website? What is a good means to "document" one's experience in the field of off highway driving for you? What is Micheal's "concrete" evidence? What has he done that has been "documented" that makes you take his word over anyone's? What has he or NTS done that you have seen personally or read that makes you respect them and deem them authoritative? What is my "rather unique view" as you see it? Why is it so unique? What evidence do you need me to provide you with? Seriously, please inform us all.

I don't doubt that Micheal is an intelligent and thoughtful man. I have no reason to doubt the sincerity in his posts or knowledge in the field. I merely question some of his methods. He questions some of mine. That is all, no more, no less. I don't think less of anyone on this board because I don't know them or disagree with them and I hope they think no less of me. Is there anything wrong with that?

As an asside: I told NO ONE they were "wrong" - name 1 person I said was "wrong". We all have different methods. You might do something I think is unsafe and I might do something you think is unsafe. Is it your contention that we shouldn't be allowed to disagree or discuss it?

Why are you so angry? Why do you want to instigate anything? You have NO IDEA who I am or what I have or haven't done do you so why the rather immature and inciting comment?

 

[spencyg]

Why are you so angry? Why do you want to instigate anything? You have NO IDEA who I am or what I have or haven't done do you so why the rather immature and inciting comment?

I'm not in any way angry about anything but I'd be happy to share both immature and inciting comments privately.

Otherwise, just know that there are people on here who have more experience in one pinky than you, me, and half the world combined. Be very careful when saying people are "wrong" just because they don't agree with your point of view. All statements made in regards to the safe use of our vehicles and the systems which support them are taken very seriously by everybody here, and when you go against convention (i.e. saying that a strap is a good thing to load up with a static 6000lb load), you best have evidence by the way of citations of other authorities in the matter that you aren't just spouting garbage info. Feel free to reference publications or articles by the two authorities on the matter which you previously referred to, as this is how people on this board typically sway the opinions of others...with cold hard facts. Just check out the "Narrow Tires" thread in the General section of this forum to see how people on ExPo relay new and opposing information with good data and solid proof. What you have provided so far to back up your viewpoint that a strap is a safe medium for winching makes you look silly and completely clueless. For us to all think otherwise will require a little more work on your part. I'd love to learn something today, but as of yet, this thread hasn't provided any of us that luxury. Please do indulge.

Spence