newbie hi lift questions

Im actually trying to get the least stretch and the the one indicated above would be ok for winching. I dont think i need a dynamic strap since this is for just in case i get stuck by myself.
The book sounds like a good idea, but i think ive read more on here than any book can fill.
 

I Leak Oil

Expedition Leader
Funnily enough, I think we're almost all agreed now on the idea that the stretchy dynamic straps are a no-no for winching operations. Yes?

Michael, I think you guys were in agreement about that since word one! Just weren't listening to each other very well or maybe not clear enough with the arguement. I don't think anyone was suggesting the use of a kinetic strap for winching. But that's one of the many pitfalls of this type of conversation on the 'net!
 

Antichrist

Expedition Leader
When I was 18 or 19 I was using a kenetic strap to anchor a deuce and a half during a winching operation. Luckily I was in the cab when the winch shear pin broke. Definitely learned my lesson!
 

ryguy

Adventurer
I have used my xtreme for winching before and it worked well.
However, there are two main reasons I upgraded to a winch:
1. The time it takes to set up pull with a highlift makes your buddys want to abandon you in the woods
2. Its kinda scary crankin' away on the high lift knowing that if something breaks its comin right at you.
 

OEX

New member
Hilift straps and angles

Just a note. The pic of the strap and hilift at OEX is a demo of why we use the extreme Jack clamp and not the older "inline" clamp It is due to the angle (very clear in that pic) as the nose reaches the clamp.

We do not use chain on the nose as has been the "way" in the past. If you use chain, as the nose reaches the clamp the chain can very easily come off. A chain is used in our way of rigging only for adjustability along with a winch extension with a sinnet knot(ancient sailor trick, nothing new, knot is also know as a monkey braid, or daisy chain) and toggle for adjustment. The chain is 3/8 70 grade for at least 6600lbs load rate and a fail rate of 26,000. Chain is only attached with d-shackles and a closed system. As a matter of fact this is the only place we use chain at OEX, never in any other recovery---too dangerous, gives no warning when it goes and hold tremendous energy due to weight when it does go.

We also do not use wire rope for the same reason, too much mass and too much stretch compared to say Materpull XD line or other synth.

Why not chain chocked onto the Hilift nose? Simple logic... chain has an ached surface and the Hilift's nose is functionally flat. Therefor the contact patch the chain has with the nose is very small and when the angle increases it just does not have as good "grip" as a nylon non-stretch strap which conforms to the nose's surface and does not slide. We use 2 or 3 inch 20,000 straps and we make sure the nose has no rough areas that might cut the strap.

We did a test some years ago; 50 pulls with a strap on the nose and 50 with the chain. The chain sprung off six times. I have never had the strap come off - and this was before the new extreme clamp was put out. Of course you could use the chain and have a retainer pin in the "A" support under the nose to help stop it from sliding, but this is not needed if you have a strap and really that "A" support is really only there for one job, to triangulate and support the lifting forces on the nose---we at OEX leave it alone.

Of course HiLift makes the chain tension unit that works very well and is safe at angles. Many decades of using this jack and others like it; we would use no other (note: this said i am always open to new products and staying dynamic with our standards at OEX- just because it worked in the past doers not mean it cannot be improved!).

The old clamp does need to be watched over time if you use the jack as a winch a lot as we do at OEX. What happens is the twist as the clamp and nose come close will rip the metal centering tabs on the clamp and allow it to rotate and drop the rig or snap (in the picture someone posted on this thread the finger is actually pointing at the metal fatigue from twist--time to get a new clamp)---REMEMBER NEVER turn the old clamp 90 degrees to the shaft, it must, as a winch, only be used in line with the shaft.

If you want to use the older clamp and not get the extreme jack, no worries, just get a 5 or 6 ft ft jack and do not go closer than a foot off the clamp when winching.

If your jack binds up, you simply have a dirty or non-lubed jack---keep it clear and pay attention. Sloppy recovery means stuck jacks. That said there are times when it is impossible to not get the jack lifting mechanism dirty if you use it low, etc. If this is the case rig a way to be higher than the dirt or what have you, or use a different technique/equipment (sand ladders, pullpal, and winch...or). Use your water bottle or urine to clean off the sand and dirt. A dirty and stuck jack is very rare for us (if things are followed methodically) and we do literally hundreds and hundreds of people a year, we are, however, rather paranoid about keeping our jacks very clean. We use large bases (2x2x1" marine plywood with a rope attached) for the jack in deep mud and sand and snow, this keeps the jack high up and clear of dirt. We do not lay the jacks on the ground if we can avoid it, but if we do, "PINS UP OR SCREW UP" Being in the USA east in CT, VA, Iceland, and the plethora of places we lead trips or train on site...we are always wet and dirty, it becomes a habit to protect the jack. This habit can be lost in dry and rocky areas at the users expense!

There are times and places that you just walk with a Hilift on your shoulder with a wheel lift and wait for the next 10 feet where it might be needed; i.e. waste of time to re-stow it in some places.

There are a few comments that the jack is dangerous, well of course it is, anything used without thought or training is! But if you know what you are doing (i.e the correct way to use it) and think and PLAN before you do a thing you can use it well. The biggest issue is usually not load rates and chains and strap, etc, but instead where your head and fingers are when using the jack... remember the "No Go Zone" . Look at many pictures of the Hilift in action and you will see peoples heads and body parts all over these dangerous spots. Its not that they do not care, its just that they have learned by other showing them the wrong technique. We do a demo in or training that makes it very clear why you need to do things right---its an eye opener for sure.. If you want a copy of our Hilift article please let us know---HiLift itself has nothing but a 100% backing of our techniques.

Edit added...straps vs chain in Hilift. We use chain only on the Hilift as stated above since it is stronger than the shear pin of the jack, you cannot break the chain before the pin, so its safe (ish). The strap we use are low stretch 20,000 lbs and the stretch they have is relative to this rating, therefor they stretch yes, but very little and not enough to store much energy. remember chain (yes little but there) also stretches but has more weight. Dynamic load is a NO NO on any system and must be avoided at all cost---define why stuck, set command of team, use hand signals and not voices constant pressure, stabilized vehicle, etc--- unless, of course, you are using a kinetic rope as a dynamic recovery.

In closing. We suggest recovery is done like this: 1st choice Kinetic rope (fastest and safest if used RIGHT), second winch and third HiLift. The Hilift is the most dangerous and slowest, but it is by no means the master of nothing. It is a very effective tool and often the only choice for recovery. So I must disagree with it being set aside as not usable and scary (this scariness comes from stories, some true, and watching others use the product wrong- use it right and all is as well as can be). Tell me, if you are alone and you do not have 6 pulley blocks, how will you winch your stuck vehicle backwards? If you are hung up on your diff, will you employ a winch or a kinetic rope, clearly not. The HiLift is the safest and fastest for these certain recoveries. Please take care, nothing is black and white.... the more you look at anything that appears black and white, the more you see shades of gray.

OEX
 
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dzzz

I've seen many chains break with no drama in a straight pull. Farmers use nothing but chains when pulling stumps with large tractors that generate tension forces far greater than vehicle recovery.
But most of this discussion was about more dynamic and complex pulls. With the right pulling tool, a tractor, recovery is a simple job. :)
 

OEX

New member
certainly, most of the time when anything fails there is little drama. farmers know their stuff, no argument there - but people have died at pulling competitions at fairs, etc. I was a logger in Maine for years as well as a commercial fisherman (lobster and scallop dragging) and most failures with chain were fine, but NOT all. The stretch is low so that with its mass means chains tend to fall down nice and easy, but odd angles, etc can get them moving and once moving........ Either way a strap is less likely to take you apart than chain. What gets a bit freaky is metal rope!

Do not get me wrong, we do not use chain, because we have better stuff, lighter, easy to use, and a less danger. There is not a profitable farmer in the world purchasing masterpull kinetic ropes or synthetic winch lines. But look at the tug industry, here you see chains put to the side to be replaced by much of the stuff we are OEX use.

OEX

Cheers
 

7wt

Expedition Leader
For the guys who have the regular flavor HiLift and wish they had the Extreme version, go out and get a Maasdam Jack Mate. It gives you all the advantages of the Extreme with a few added bonus' for kicks. They stopped making them for a spell but I hear tell they are available again.

http://www.bc4x4.com/quick/2002/jackmate/

For what it's worth, I have seen the methods OEX recommends and they are certainly safe. The bottom line is knowing when the HiLift is the best tool for the job and knowing when it's not. Understanding how to properly use one safely goes a long way to maximizing it's full use. I wouldn't be without one.
 

dzzz

How are inflatable bags for heavier trucks (10-20K lbs.) ? Especially as a supplement to a jack. I see the ARB version lifting something like 8K. The truly heavy duty rescue bags are too expensive for me. But that ARB is only a couple hundred U.S.

I don't use chains either. Except for unimog owners, who wants the weight.
 

7wt

Expedition Leader
Check out 4X4 Connection (http://www.4by4connection.com) for some well-made straps at decent prices. And buy the highest SWLL strap you can afford. (At the very least - 2x your GVW) Buy a well-made strap - check for high stitch counts, long over-lap at the ends and a "doubled-over" loop end. Some straps you'll see just fold back the tag ends of the strap, stitch it, and call it good! It's not! And pleeeeeeeease, for God's Sake, don't buy a strap with a hook already "sewed" into it. You're buying yourself a strap with a projectile on it if you do.

I did some checking about these tree straps and they are made out of nylon and as a result, have about a 7/10% stretch factor. I spoke to the manufacturer and they can make the same strap out of polyester with a nominal stretch rate of less than 3% for the same cost. I called up 4X4 connection and special ordered a couple to see. At $20 a pop for quality american made products I figured it would be worth it to check them out. The place that makes them produces slings for commercial applications.
 

Ruffin' It

Explorer
Another nice feature of the extreme is that it can easily be used to clamp or spread. In certain instances of breakage on the trail, having those options can be REALLY handy. Bill Burke told me a story about clamping a broken leaf pring pack together with one to get back to town. Sure, they had to punch a hole in the hood to drive, but they got back. I love my Extreme and never once thought the few bucks more was wasted. I'd say go the the extreme and, if you have a lift, go for the 60. I have a 48" and now that I have a 4" lift and 35's, it is barely long enough.

Wow! Wasn't this originally a question about which HiLift to buy? :Wow1:
 

JamesDowning

Explorer
You want the strap or winch extension to be the weakest link in any case.

I found this interesting, can you explain this statement?

I was always under the impression that you want the pulling device to be the weakest link. For instance, if the shear pin in the hi-lift breaks, the load does not fall to the ground, it just cannot be lifted further. If the shear pin is the weakest link, isn't that much safer than a strap being the weakest link?

This is similar in a winching situation. If your winch itself is the weakest link, won't it just stall out? That way, there is no possibility of flying hardware.

Thanks! Maybe I am just not understanding the intended meaning in your statement.
 

OEX

New member
Yes weakest link needs to be the pin. Again this is why you can use chain with a hilift with a bit more of a safty factor than with other recovery-- can't easily part a 3/8 70 chain if the Hilift pin will go at about 7000lbs, assuming no dynamic action.

The load does not fall if pin breaks. You are left with a jack in a non-movable situation. This has never happen to me or at OEX. We have never had a jack break on us, except when one was used as a lever bar to move a rock, even then it worked after, but needed a new part just in case.

So, as I see this thread was about which jack to buy. Buy a 5ft extreme (this just to get the better clamp). Or get the jack mate and the red cast 5ft. Either way lube it up and get the paint off the surfaces of the jack and pin holes....this will make a smoother and better acting jack. My oldest jack is the one I always grab, I know it is never sticky. ....again if you want a copy of the HiLift article I wrote, just contact us at OEX

cheers
 
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