newbie hi lift questions

[emmodg]

This is Bill Burke about to use something "stretchy" in a winching exercise:

The 1st pic show Mr. Burke securing a "stretchy" strap to the side of a vehicle. The second pic shows Mr. Burke using on of those darn "stretchy" straps in a HiLift winching exercise. So this is wrong? Please explain. The 3rd pic is Mr Elfstrom of Overland Experts using a "stretchy" strap in a HiLift winching excersice. He is wrong as well? Both of these men are tops in their field. I think we can agree on that can't we.

Maybe I'm just mis-understanding you but you did say it was not good to use straps in any winching exercise didn't you. If not, I apologize.

"...I'm just a middle-aged dude who would hardly recognise a winch if he saw it" You said it, not me. And for God's Sake, don't let "spencyg" know this. He thinks your the bee's knees!

 

[spencyg]

By posting these pics we can now at least BEGIN to have a disucssion on your points. The first point I'd like to make is there are different types of straps. Some are for dynamic recovery (stretchy), while others are for more static recovery (tree strap). Both the straps in these pics look like static recovery straps to me (obviously impossible to be sure), but I will say the one shown on the hi-lift looks downright scary. Are you sure the video wasn't demonstrating how NOT to winch with a hi-lift?

And if you did a little research on these forums, you would hopefully feel a little more humble when participating in a discussion with some of the participants here. For me, respect is earned. These folks have earned mine.

Spence

 

[78Bronco]

This looks scary to me...and I have very little experience but lots of common sense

 

[emmodg]

Point taken Spence.

Again. Please respect me enough to answer my questions:

-Who did I say was "wrong"?

-When did I say "...that a strap is a good thing to load up with a static 6000lb load"? Jesus man, Micheal made the "3t comment" not me. (Refer to post #34).Please man, if you're gonna argue with me show enough respect for a man to quote him accurately. I shouldn't have to provide you with "documentation" to be treated like a gentleman. (And by the way why couldn't you "load up" a static 3t load on a strap as long as the STRAP has a higher SWL?) You may be confusing static with dynamic. When you say "load" do you mean a static load or dynamic load? Tree strap or snatch strap?

-Did I not say this in post #38 "You are right, recovery straps do have different amounts of inherent stretch. You do need to be aware of the amount."?

-So does this not agree with your comment "The first point I'd like to make is there are different types of straps. Some are for dynamic recovery (stretchy), while others are for more static recovery (tree strap)."

-Finally did Micheal not say this in post #37 "And similarly, my overall point is very clear - don't use anything elastic when you are winching (whether it is electric, hydraulic, hand-powered, or whatever). The stretchier the strap, the bigger the danger. Whereas a chain safely within its WLL isn't a problem when you have a steady pull, free of significant shock loads."



Again Spencer, I respect yours and EVERBODY'S opinions on this board, (that's a lie, I didn't respect Mr Young's opinions but he was banned). I like good thoughtful argument about certain topics. But please - if you're gonna jump in and talk about how little experience I have in my little finger even though you have NO IDEA who I am, what I've done and for how long, and you clearly haven't read all my posts - refrain from commenting.

 

[neverestablished]

Can someone clear up for me
Dynamic= using momentum and stretch to yank a vehicle out? Mostly sand and mud with another vechicle?

Static= slowly winch from a stationary object in rock and ruts?

Is the 20k and 30k straps i see at all the offroad stores for static or dynamic?
Can someone post a link where dynamic, static, and cable extensions are sold. I would really love not to lug around 30' of chain (btw which grade and thickness is recommended).
PS i know you guys are really serious about proper recovery methods but WOW

 

[emmodg]

This looks scary to me...and I have very little experience but lots of common sense

I agree here. Using the strap is OK but this shows you what can go wrong as the HiLift's carrier goes further and further towards the top clamp. Those angles get "freaky" and the HiLift becomes more and more of a lever-arm. This shows the student to be ever mindful of this possibility and the advantages of using the top clamp on the Extreme Jack where this angle is greatly minimized!

(I didn't want to get as close as I did to get the picture to be honest with you!)

 

[I Leak Oil]

Can someone clear up for me
Dynamic= using momentum and stretch to yank a vehicle out? Mostly sand and mud with another vechicle?

Static= slowly winch from a stationary object in rock and ruts?

Is the 20k and 30k straps i see at all the offroad stores for static or dynamic?

Your assumptions of Dynamic vs. Static are basically correct.
As far as straps, a tow strap is a static type of strap. A Kinetic strap is more like an elastic band where it uses the stored energy to help in the recovery. You can find both at most offroad stores so be specific in what you want.

 

[emmodg]

Can someone clear up for me
Dynamic= using momentum and stretch to yank a vehicle out? Mostly sand and mud with another vechicle?

Static= slowly winch from a stationary object in rock and ruts?

Is the 20k and 30k straps i see at all the offroad stores for static or dynamic?
Can someone post a link where dynamic, static, and cable extensions are sold. I would really love not to lug around 30' of chain (btw which grade and thickness is recommended).
PS i know you guys are really serious about proper recovery methods but WOW

Yeah man, sorry for the "heated" language.

Static: your "exerting" force by weight alone, you're NOT using momentum(vehicle motion) A nice easy tow using the recovering vehicle's available traction and weight alone. Like a tow truck.

Dynamic: here your employing vehicle motion to exert force on a system. You've probably seen a truck get moving to "yank" another vehicle out...

The straps you see in a good 4X4 store are either marked recovery/tow straps(static load only), snatch straps(dynamic loads or if you have to static towing), or tree strap(static load for anchor)

Check out 4X4 Connection (http://www.4by4connection.com) for some well-made straps at decent prices. And buy the highest SWLL strap you can afford. (At the very least - 2x your GVW) Buy a well-made strap - check for high stitch counts, long over-lap at the ends and a "doubled-over" loop end. Some straps you'll see just fold back the tag ends of the strap, stitch it, and call it good! It's not! And pleeeeeeeease, for God's Sake, don't buy a strap with a hook already "sewed" into it. You're buying yourself a strap with a projectile on it if you do.

For chain specs check out: http://www.thecrosbygroup.com/html/default.htm They have some great info. and ratings! I like grade 7 minimum and grade 8 even better.

 

[spencyg]

Point taken Spence.

Again. Please respect me enough to answer my questions:

-Who did I say was "wrong"?

-When did I say "...that a strap is a good thing to load up with a static 6000lb load"? Jesus man, Micheal made the "3t comment" not me. (Refer to post #34).Please man, if you're gonna argue with me show enough respect for a man to quote him accurately. I shouldn't have to provide you with "documentation" to be treated like a gentleman. (And by the way why couldn't you "load up" a static 3t load on a strap as long as the STRAP has a higher SWL?) You may be confusing static with dynamic. When you say "load" do you mean a static load or dynamic load? Tree strap or snatch strap?

-Did I not say this in post #38 "You are right, recovery straps do have different amounts of inherent stretch. You do need to be aware of the amount."?

-So does this not agree with your comment "The first point I'd like to make is there are different types of straps. Some are for dynamic recovery (stretchy), while others are for more static recovery (tree strap)."

-Finally did Micheal not say this in post #37 "And similarly, my overall point is very clear - don't use anything elastic when you are winching (whether it is electric, hydraulic, hand-powered, or whatever). The stretchier the strap, the bigger the danger. Whereas a chain safely within its WLL isn't a problem when you have a steady pull, free of significant shock loads."



Again Spencer, I respect yours and EVERBODY'S opinions on this board, (that's a lie, I didn't respect Mr Young's opinions but he was banned). I like good thoughtful argument about certain topics. But please - if you're gonna jump in and talk about how little experience I have in my little finger even though you have NO IDEA who I am, what I've done and for how long, and you clearly haven't read all my posts - refrain from commenting.

I'm not here to fight, so lets just get back to the topic at hand. If you feel the need to bare some chest hair, I'm sure we can figure something out through the PM process.

I have seen a hi-lift used in a pinch to do a great many things, ranging from winching (as seen here), lifting (duh), clamping, and popping a tire bead. Since I have seen and personally performed all of these methods employed above, I can honestly say that each application (aside from the tire bead trick), were scary. These jacks certainly fit under the umbrella of "a tool of many talents but a master of none". It will do a lot of things well enough to get you by, but if you plan to ever need to winch, get a winch. If you plan to need a clamp, get a clamp. Even for lifting, especially with rigs such as those found on this board, they aren't really all that safe, even when employed correctly. The center of gravity issue plays into effect significantly, and when you're within 12" of maximum travel on a 48" jack just to get a tire off the ground, you are begging for a problem, especially in an off-camber situation. I carry a hi-lift, but only as a last resort. For my primary tire-changing duties, I bring an appropriate bottle jack. Better yet, get an ARB X-Jack.

Spence

 

[michaelgroves]

IMO, ideally you want to distinguish between:

• a dynamic-load strap or rope, with lots of stretch, used for kinetic recoveries only;
• a true static-load strap or rope (or chain), with nearly zero stretch which is used for winching (and similar) only, and;
• a towing strap or rope, which has some give, so it won't snap when it's shock loaded. (You should never tow with wire rope, synthetic winch line, or chain, as the shock loads are likely to break them and/or damage the mounting points).

There is of course a continuum of ropes and straps that spread across the categories, so it's not possible to say at precisely what point one becomes the next. But the principle is useful when choosing your rigging.

Funnily enough, I think we're almost all agreed now on the idea that the stretchy dynamic straps are a no-no for winching operations. Yes?

 

[michaelgroves]

I have seen a hi-lift used in a pinch to do a great many things, ranging from winching (as seen here), lifting (duh), clamping, and popping a tire bead. Since I have seen and personally performed all of these methods employed above, I can honestly say that each application (aside from the tire bead trick), were scary. These jacks certainly fit under the umbrella of "a tool of many talents but a master of none". It will do a lot of things well enough to get you by, but if you plan to ever need to winch, get a winch. If you plan to need a clamp, get a clamp. Even for lifting, especially with rigs such as those found on this board, they aren't really all that safe, even when employed correctly. The center of gravity issue plays into effect significantly, and when you're within 12" of maximum travel on a 48" jack just to get a tire off the ground, you are begging for a problem, especially in an off-camber situation. I carry a hi-lift, but only as a last resort. For my primary tire-changing duties, I bring an appropriate bottle jack. Better yet, get an ARB X-Jack.

Spence

LOL, yes, I started off in this thread pointing out that I don't really like Hi-lifts at all! Truly a "jack" of all trades, master of none!

I've always been a fan of High-lift jacks, but I must say I am rethinking my position. What I don't like about them is that they are:

• Dangerous
• Heavy
• Hard to stow
• Hard to keep clean
• Unreliable/ineffective when they are dirty
• Versatile, but don't do anything well.

Yes, it does the work of a bottle-jack, an air jack, and a come-along, but I'm thinking maybe I'm better off carrying a bottle-jack, an air jack, and a come-along. They each do their own jobs a lot better than a high-lift.

 

[emmodg]

I'm not here to fight, so lets just get back to the topic at hand. If you feel the need to bare some chest hair, I'm sure we can figure something out through the PM process.

I have seen a hi-lift used in a pinch to do a great many things, ranging from winching (as seen here), lifting (duh), clamping, and popping a tire bead. Since I have seen and personally performed all of these methods employed above, I can honestly say that each application (aside from the tire bead trick), were scary. These jacks certainly fit under the umbrella of "a tool of many talents but a master of none". It will do a lot of things well enough to get you by, but if you plan to ever need to winch, get a winch. If you plan to need a clamp, get a clamp. Even for lifting, especially with rigs such as those found on this board, they aren't really all that safe, even when employed correctly. The center of gravity issue plays into effect significantly, and when you're within 12" of maximum travel on a 48" jack just to get a tire off the ground, you are begging for a problem, especially in an off-camber situation. I carry a hi-lift, but only as a last resort. For my primary tire-changing duties, I bring an appropriate bottle jack. Better yet, get an ARB X-Jack.

Spence

Finally! We can agree about something! We teach the HiLift as the tool of last resort when winching.

 

[neverestablished]

Thanks everyone, now im getting it figured out.
So for these straps that are labeled recovery and tow, do they have stretch to them and would they be appropriate to use winching. http://www.4by4connection.com/recstraptres.html
It was noted earlier that tow straps have stretch for the shocks during towing but recovery are for only static pulls.

I really would like to have this set up in the truck Just In Case and upgrade to winch/bumper, Arb airjack, etc. when the time an money comes. But this is better than nothing, right?

 

[emmodg]

No problem man!

Yeah, the tree straps have veeeeeeeeeeeeery little to no stretch or elongation. AT the most 3 to 5%. The tow straps have a little more elogation at 10 sometimes 15%. You may be thinking of a true snatch strap - these have up to 20% stretch and are suitable for dynamic use.(Check out ARB) If you have the extra coin look into a KERR rope, (kinetic energy recovery rope), this can have stretch of up to 30%. (Check out Viking Off Road) They are terrific when using a smaller vehicle to recover a larger one and really do well to dissipate shock to rigging and/or vehicles. They are more expensive and take up a little more space than most straps but they work like a charm!

I think Garrett mentioned it already but a real good book to get ahold of is The 4 Wheeler's Bible. Great resource and easy to understand.

 

[emmodg]

Oh yeah, until you get a winch and other recovery flotsam and jetsum - you're right - a good, well made recovery strap and a good book like the aforementioned and you have a GREAT first start at "kit"!