Next-Generation Defender

flyingwil

Supporting Sponsor - Sierra Expeditions
It seems a bit too much of a concept car too me. I would assume the next generation models would be more off the Defender SVX with some added FJ Cruiser like retro styling. Similar to this one in this blog.



 

David Harris

Expedition Leader
It seems a bit too much of a concept car too me. I would assume the next generation models would be more off the Defender SVX with some added FJ Cruiser like retro styling. Similar to this one in this blog.




I agree. Concepts are usually quite a bit more radical than the final product. However, I do think that it will be very different from the current Defender and more in line with LR's other current models, LR4 and RR.
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
It seems a bit too much of a concept car too me. I would assume the next generation models would be more off the Defender SVX with some added FJ Cruiser like retro styling. Similar to this one in this blog.

What?! That's the old Ford Bronco concept with Range Rover headlights grafted on (badly, I might add).

FordBroncoConcept.jpg


newdefenderconcept.jpg
 

AxeAngel

Expedition Leader
You have obviously done your homework, and I totally understand what you are saying, however, what ICON does is very different than what I would do.

Instead of "the most advanced form of simple" (ICON motto) I'd build the simple form of simple. AM/FM radio is standard, if you want a CD player, swap it out yourself. You get 16" black steel wheels, if you want aluminum, go to TireRack.com. You do get to chose your paint color - black, white, OD green, or tan (maybe red). You will get a Warn winch on the front bumper, and you'll get a locking rear diff. But you will not get Recaro seats and a sun visor off a Leer jet. Basically, give the customer everything that matters, and nothing that doesn't. Someone who is the market for that kind of a vehicle will understand why the gauges say "Auto Meter" on them. You get your economies of scale by using off the shelf parts. I'd bet it could be done for $30k, but it would not very profitable.

Not trying to dig at you or anything, I just think with the right priorities, its more feasible than one thinks.

I hear you man, the only downside is what you and I think matters isn't always what sells. The demographic that wants to be scene in a hardcore offroader is who pays the bills. They want to look like they are hardcore but want to be swathed in comfort. Look at all the little kiddies in Malibu or the Hamptons that drive defenders/icons whatever.

A truly stripped down offroad machine could be built for 30k. But it wouldn't have comforts and amenities. Your target market effectively is only the hardcore wheelers, and they are the toughest sell, because they will expect the best and just flame you for it. They will find a weakness and say its better to build it yourself than to buy it. Feasibly how many of these vehicles could you sell a year? Less than 500 best case scenario.

Just doesnt make sense for anycar maker. Make it pretty and luxurious and all of a sudden every banker/actor/lawyer wants it for the image.

-Sam
 

AxeAngel

Expedition Leader
Obviously I've never been asked my opinion by Land Rover, but it's difficult for me to imagine many people are demanding a vehicle called a "Defender" on an Discovery 4 type platform. Discoveries maybe, Range Rovers maybe, but Defender? I doubt it.

Does anyone really think the military, utility companies, farmers, construction companies, etc. are demanding such a vehicle?

Tom, bingo.

The demand is from bankers/actors/lawyers, they want a vehicle that is capable of doing anything while swaddling them in luxury with every electronic gizmo available.

-Sam
 

flyingwil

Supporting Sponsor - Sierra Expeditions
What?! That's the old Ford Bronco concept with Range Rover headlights grafted on (badly, I might add).

FordBroncoConcept.jpg


newdefenderconcept.jpg


Yes, sir you are correct. I was trying to show the retro styling I was describing. I would think that if LR were to re-do it, it would be more along those lines. Retro styling, more "curves' and yet still recognizable as a Defender, not a remodeled Freelander.
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
Ok, I agree. I think if they were to modernize it, the styling of that Bronco would be a great way to go. If it had a real frame and solid axles, I think many purists would still consider it an evolution of the Defender, no matter how much comfort it had. I always liked it.

But, the Bronco concept was heavily criticized due to front and rear independent suspension.
 

overlander

Expedition Leader
Ok, I agree. I think if they were to modernize it, the styling of that Bronco would be a great way to go. If it had a real frame and solid axles, I think many purists would still consider it an evolution of the Defender, no matter how much comfort it had. I always liked it.

But, the Bronco concept was heavily criticized due to front and rear independent suspension.

The Defender market world wide is still highly tailored to commercial applications, and so the solid frame and flexibility to modify the body style to commercial and bespoke platforms would continue to be key to existing market I would think. I don't see a unibody platform like the LR4 allowing that kind of customization.
 

David Harris

Expedition Leader
The Defender market world wide is still highly tailored to commercial applications, and so the solid frame and flexibility to modify the body style to commercial and bespoke platforms would continue to be key to existing market I would think. I don't see a unibody platform like the LR4 allowing that kind of customization.

Very good point. If Land Rover is going to continue to target the commercial market (that is IF . . .), and maintain the commercial standards the vehicles are built to now, then it would in all likelihood have to have a body on frame construction. The other track Rover may take, and which has been mentioned above, is to simply make the Defender another rugged, safari-style recreational 4x4, like the FJ Cruiser, and only bank on the utilitarian/working image of the original Defender.

David
 

Antichrist

Expedition Leader
The demand is from bankers/actors/lawyers, they want a vehicle that is capable of doing anything while swaddling them in luxury with every electronic gizmo available.
Hmmm...I'd be surprised if there's much demand for a Discovery 4 based Defender from such folks.
 

pangaea

Adventurer
But, the Bronco concept was heavily criticized due to front and rear independent suspension.

Be that as it may, I think we're all going to have to come to terms with the fact that F/R solid axle trucks are going the way of the dodo.

From what I've heard, they're working on 2 different versions of the Defender - a military/NGO/industrial version, which I'd doubt we'll ever get our hands on, and a "lifestyle" truck. At best, the lifestyle truck is going to be IFS/Solid Axle Rear.
 

Viggen

Just here...
But, the Bronco concept was heavily criticized due to front and rear independent suspension.

No, it was widely criticized because it was originally designed to compete against the Scion and thus was heavily based on the Escape and they were going to try and build it to a price point below $15000 to compete. They have recently dug it back up and changed it to be based on a new F100 but I seriously doubt that either of them will happen. They want to compete with the Wrangler and the rumors are that it will take the form of the original Bronco in running gear but who knows about the powertrain. Originally, it was designed for a 2.0 TDi with 6 speed auto FWD with an automatic awd system. If they upsize it, money says that they will chicken out on the diesel and slap another gas motor in it. They have the Transit Connect here which gets a diesel everywhere else but they chose to put an underpowered 4 cyl with 4 speed auto in it here and have gone on record saying that they will go electric before they go diesel.

They want to build a completely new truck and I dont think that Ford has the guts, and rightfully so, to do it. Too much money at risk to build a truck right now and they are being smart and focusing on a smarter, more efficient and better looking car line like what they give their European markets. Other than the iconic Wrangler, does anyone want a 2 door SUV? Hell, even Jeep had to add 2 doors for the Wrangler to successfully expand their market share (I see far more Unlimiteds than 2 doors) and stay relevant. Markets say they want 4 doors and there is no such thing as a 4 door Bronco, except that hideous Centurion thing. I know about the FJ Cruiser but Toyotas market line is so diverse that they can spread any lose or marginal profit across the whole model line.

Land Rover, however, has had a Defender 4 door since day one and can tap into a following but they will need a serious updating in EVERYTHING. I bought my Disco over a 110 and did it because the Defender of now is not safe (side impact? Nada), not comfortable (Im 6'4" and looking out the window requires a stooping down), has no creature comforts (due to minimalist, utilitarian design) and no good for an up to date American market. Its a farm vehicle everywhere else. It was never meant to be a daily driven, comfortable option for transportation. We dont need a farm vehicle as we have better, more capable offerings from Ford, Dodge and Chevrolet to fill that requirement. People dont want solid axles as the ride sucks compared to the modern independent system, which are growing in capability too. People dont want to be separated from an oncoming vehicle by only a thin sheet of aluminum. People want to be isolated from NVH present in daily life and they want to do it in total, not just knees, air conditioned comfort. They will not buy anything else in large numbers. Look at the current Land Cruiser. Its continually evolved and is in use in many markets where a day to day drive involves much more than what an average American will ever drive through. Oh, and it started sporting independent suspension some time ago and the aftermarket has whole heartedly picked it up and made it into a confident off road option. The UZJ100 is a very popular, and capable truck YET offers all the above.

LR has a tough job to do. They need to balance their heritage AND current market demands in order to be relevant on a global scale. The concept is hideous but at least they are taking a stab at it. They can use the tech that has been developed over years in their Discos and RRs, dumb it down a bit, and sell it in a nice package. Will it be cheap? Probably not. More importantly, I dont even think that it will come the States as our perception of LR is so much different than the rest of the world. For us, as in our market, LR is not an off road vehicle. It is a luxury vehicle capable of going off road but probably never will. Unless they do what other companies like Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, etc... do and create a model of the Defender specifically for our market, which they dont have the money to do, a Defender will never come here. A truly global market offering, including America, would have to be all that is mentioned above and in order to do that, the price will jump across the board and as a result, it will lose utility and accessibility, which is what LR's are known for everywhere else.

We all say we want simple trucks but in reality, these simple trucks are unmarketable and no company would be crazy enough to do it. I like my comfy seats, a/c, power windows and locks, great thoughtful dash layout, safety and relative simplicity. We, alas, are not a viable market. We are not even a blip on their screen. A markets overall demand will trump heritage all day long because a car company has to make money in order to thrive. Jeep can do it because they have never pretended to be anything but an off road friendly marque and know that a special edition like a Rubicon can be built in numbers in low cost Mexico for cheap and sell it and a marginal profit. They can stand to lose a little bit of money on a Rubicon as for every one Rubicon sold, there will be 5 or 6 cheapo X versions sold. LR can not do that. Can LR redesign their Defender, build it in Britain, import it to the US and sell it for the price of a Rubicon? Nope. Thats the reason why I dont see the US getting one.
 

greenrover

New member
Obviously I've never been asked my opinion by Land Rover, but it's difficult for me to imagine many people are demanding a vehicle called a "Defender" on an Discovery 4 type platform. Discoveries maybe, Range Rovers maybe, but Defender? I doubt it.

I WAS asked my opinion by Land Rover, back in 2001/2002, when I had my 87 Range Rover with mods, and a 2000 DII. There were a couple of us that actually used Rovers offroad and the rest were soccer moms, Silicon Valley execs, etc. They had concepts of the Range Rover Sport and LR3/DIII, as well as Cayennes, Infiniti suvs...

I was paid, and ignored, but oh well

Dave

04 DII
 

Viggen

Just here...
I WAS asked my opinion by Land Rover, back in 2001/2002, when I had my 87 Range Rover with mods, and a 2000 DII. There were a couple of us that actually used Rovers offroad and the rest were soccer moms, Silicon Valley execs, etc. They had concepts of the Range Rover Sport and LR3/DIII, as well as Cayennes, Infiniti suvs...

I was paid, and ignored, but oh well

Ive done focus groups before for VW when I was into their products. The bottom line is that enthusiasts, with very few marque exceptions, are not listened to. We are not the market they are shooting for. They are looking for somewhere between mainstream and the enthusiast. Whatever helps them sell more vehicles. VW actually cares what its people think about their vehicles but feedback is very rarely taken from an enthusiast. Did you honestly expect otherwise?

This was one of my VW's that was put on display at one of the VW TDI Cup races a couple of years ago (the Imola Yellow Fahrenheit GLI):
IMG_2619.JPG
 

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