No Politics: This Is Why Electric Vehicles Won't Work In The Long Run

[Silverado08]

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I would imagine the cars and trucks of the future will be much like this. Think about the benefits of a system where you have a powerful electric motor on each wheel. Wheels can articulate separately - no more discussion about IFS vs SFA. Power can be applied as needed, controlled by a computer. Need all 4 wheels turning? Got it. need just two? Or hell, on the highway maybe only one wheel is powered! Since the power connection to the wheels will be via wire there's no need to figure out things like CV axles or differentials.
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Another advantage is that the power source can be anything - diesel engine, gasoline engine, fuel cell, etc. All it has to do is provide enough power to turn the generator. Batteries are still a problem but as I've said in other threads, I'm confident someone will work that out for the simple reason that there's major money to be made in doing so. :ylsmoke:
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I also think that some kind of hybrid electric system is more viable in the long run than any battery-only system. It's just a lot more efficient to store energy in the form of diesel fuel, gasoline or some other energy-dense fuel than it is to try and store it in a battery.

Something like this maybe
http://www.proteanelectric.com

 

[Silverado08]

I'd like to see a study on how green EVs actually are. I have the impression a lot of the people on the street who are proponents seem to think the power for these just appears at the socket in their garage, but it doesn't. For conversation it's accurate enough to say that electricity is produced 2/3 by fossil fuels and the other 1/3 divided close enough to evenly between renewable and nuclear.

How efficient is the whole process? You expend energy to pull coal from the ground and get it to the plant. You turn it into heat (loss) and turn that into mechanical energy (loss) and turn that into electricity. That gets transmitted into the grid and "shipped" with losses along the way, to your house where you feed it into batteries with loss again, and finally it gets turned back into mechanical energy again with yet more loss. What do those numbers look like and to be fair how does it compare to the losses from getting oil out of the ground and to the rear wheels of our junk?

What about the end of life recycling aspect? A fuel tank is almost 100% recyclable at the end of its days, which will be the end of the service life of most vehicles. How long do these lion batteries last before they need replacement, how much can be recycled, and how much energy is expended to do so?

As the info by the OP points out, this issue is way more complicated than just plugging your Prius into the wall and then patting yourself on the back for saving the planet. Maybe you are, but do we as the consumer really know, or are we just taking it on faith?

The OP post numbers are way off,,with a bit of Googling it tells me EV beats stinky fuel hands down,all things considered,only people against evs are folk who make money from oil industry imho.


http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_charging_home.html

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html

http://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/electric-hybrid-gas-how-they-compare-costs-2015/

http://www.alive.com/health/the-real-story-of-alberta-oil-industry-pollution/

 

[Rockhounder]

The OP post numbers are way off,,with a bit of Googling it tells me EV beats stinky fuel hands down,all things considered,only people against evs are folk who make money from oil industry imho.


http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_charging_home.html

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html

http://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/electric-hybrid-gas-how-they-compare-costs-2015/

http://www.alive.com/health/the-real-story-of-alberta-oil-industry-pollution/

Name me your EV of choice to do Utah canyonlands that is superior in any way to traditional gas off road vehicles who have to go out and spend time in areas that there is no charging stations for a week at a time..... "hands down" means this should be a very easy answer.

 

[Silverado08]

As batteries, solar and wind power tech gets better it could really change things. Now am going to go political but not a you vs me but an us against them.

When we can make our own power in a practical and affordable manner we can "go off the grid" and the man looses all sorts of tax dollars and we will be less dependant on our government. These are two things the government won't want to to happen. The major car manufacturer will also lose out. If Tesla can make a car with a 200 + range so can ford, chevy toyota etc. The major manufactures wants to spread out their advances slowly over years and years to maximize their profits.

Tulsa has the batteries and the vehicles to make it happen. If solar and wind energy company make similar advance there is no reason electric cars couldn't become more mainstream.

I think too many feal we have to have one or the other. We can have been other electric and combustion motors even in the same garage.

The government and big business are the ones holding things up.

Tesla has 400.000 orders for their latest car which isnt even in production yet and wont be for at least a year..big 3 auto makers better get on the ball if they want to survive this electric revolution!

 

[Silverado08]

Name me your EV of choice to do Utah canyonlands that is superior in any way to traditional gas off road vehicles who have to go out and spend time in areas that there is no charging stations for a week at a time..... "hands down" means this should be a very easy answer.

Maybe there isnt one for your particular purpose yet,,however wherever theres a need some enterprising individual will fill it eventualy..

https://youtu.be/gBNxTSTMeII

http://www.viamotors.com

http://www.altellc.com/technology

 

[Rockhounder]

Maybe there isnt one for your particular purpose yet,,however wherever theres a need some enterprising individual will fill it eventualy..

https://youtu.be/gBNxTSTMeII

Yes, eventually is good, and something to look forward to, but "wins hands down" on something that isn't actually here yet, but extrapolated to come, with some as yet uninvented necessary tech improvement in energy storage tech necessary to bring to fruition does not have real world usefulness. Right now, "today" it is a fail. I am excited in the hope that new tech being invented will take us, but now, we have to work in the real world.

I don't know if you remember an old thread about solar for AC, but we were able to do that, with our whole 28 foot travel trailer covered with solar panels, 8 6 volt deep cycle marine/rv batteries, a harbor freight 10k watt invertor, all 4 tp 6 gauge wiring, and the smallest walmart window mount ac cooler we could find. (4800). It was nice, on sunny days, as long as the sun shined, we had ac with no need for genny. The batteries would keep it going until late, couple hours after sun set. Then out of power.

 

[Silverado08]

Yes, eventually is good, and something to look forward to, but "wins hands down" on something that isn't actually here yet, but extrapolated to come, with some as yet uninvented necessary tech improvement in energy storage tech necessary to bring to fruition does not have real world usefulness. Right now, "today" it is a fail. I am excited in the hope that new tech being invented will take us, but now, we have to work in the real world.

I don't know if you remember an old thread about solar for AC, but we were able to do that, with our whole 28 foot travel trailer covered with solar panels, 8 6 volt deep cycle marine/rv batteries, a harbor freight 10k watt invertor, all 4 tp 6 gauge wiring, and the smallest walmart window mount ac cooler we could find. (4800). It was nice, on sunny days, as long as the sun shined, we had ac with no need for genny. The batteries would keep it going until late, couple hours after sun set. Then out of power.

Then Maybe fuel cell would be better option instead of solar in such situation..

http://www.efoy-comfort.com/how-it-works
http://www.efoy.com

 

[KE7JFF]

Here's my two cents: I think EV's are great grocery getters and commuter cars that will be fine for the average Suburban family. A matter of fact, American Motors in its heyday of the 70s actually did some marketing/economics research into EV vehicles and found something interesting; if a family had an electric vehicle "appliance" car they would use just for around town stuff that did not use gas, they probably would have a "fun" vehicle like Truck, Jeep, or convertible for road trips, which I can totally see is still valid today.

 

[workerdrone]

As batteries, solar and wind power tech gets better it could really change things. Now am going to go political but not a you vs me but an us against them.

When we can make our own power in a practical and affordable manner we can "go off the grid" and the man looses all sorts of tax dollars and we will be less dependant on our government. These are two things the government won't want to to happen.

The government will never lose out on taxes. They will simply start charging taxes by the mile instead of by the gallon, or something similar. And there won't be any fooling around with your odometer to pay less, either.

Let's just hope they continue to leave bicycles alone!

 

[MOguy]

The government will never lose out on taxes. They will simply start charging taxes by the mile instead of by the gallon, or something similar. And there won't be any fooling around with your odometer to pay less, either.

Let's just hope they continue to leave bicycles alone!

They will get their taxes somewhere for sure and that is where the politics really come in. Do they do it on registration the state collects and the fed looses out. Does the state take on a greater roll maintaining the highways?

Does the Fed ad a tax?

Do we tax the vehicle or the power?

Fuel is taxed at the pump, how will they colect,it on the electric vehicles?

 

[Ducky's Dad]

If you try to drive, we'll tax the street. If you try to walk, we'll tax your feet.

With thanks to The Beatles.

 

[doug720]

Easy to tax the "Fuel" on a Tesla, and likely most EV's. Tesla's record all car functions, including power consumed. This information is downloaded to "Father Tesla" nearly everyday.

Tax by the watt, or more probable, by the mile will be here soon enough, and likely not just for EV's. Gas powered vehicles use much less than fuel than in the past, so fuel taxes are declining. The gov wants more money, and a byproduct of this will insurance based on mileage driven.

No matter the fuel, we will pay!

 

[MOguy]

Easy to tax the "Fuel" on a Tesla, and likely most EV's. Tesla's record all car functions, including power consumed. This information is downloaded to "Father Tesla" nearly everyday.

Tax by the watt, or more probable, by the mile will be here soon enough, and likely not just for EV's. Gas powered vehicles use much less than fuel than in the past, so fuel taxes are declining. The gov wants more money, and a byproduct of this will insurance based on mileage driven.

No matter the fuel, we will pay!

What do you think will happen to "father telsa" if they start reporting people driving habits to the government?

 

[4x4x4doors]

a byproduct of this will insurance based on mileage driven.

I've seen this statement often and have to wonder, am I the only one who has always paid insurance based, in part, on miles driven? Each renewal period, we get asked to report the odo reading on the vehicles. As auto insurance is governed by the states, I suppose its possible I've just bought auto insurance in the 4 states where this is true.

 

[nicholastanguma]

if a family had an electric vehicle "appliance" car they would use just for around town stuff that did not use gas, they probably would have a "fun" vehicle like Truck, Jeep, or convertible for road trips, which I can totally see is still valid today.

I sure would. EV makes sense for urban dwellers. And I say this as someone whose veins and arteries are filled with motor oil. I breathe, eat, sleep, and dream vintage motorcycles. It's the politics of the whole thing that I dislike; the government will always be looking for a way to control and tax the people. And that so often means putting the kaibosh on fun. Cuz, you know, fun ain't green. Like old motorcycles...we already know how the EPA feels about that kind of fun.