Odyssey vs. Diehard Platinum

[dstock]

1) It sounds to me like your Platinums are being slowly killed off. Are they installed in parallel in a system when you observe these voltages? (I don't know what a JK is so I don't know if there is a parasitic drain.) What loads are the Platinums experiencing? Here is a chart showing what your state of charge is based on your voltage measurements http://www.odysseybatteries.co.nz/Support/StateofCharge/tabid/782/Default.aspx. Got this from a New Zealand location. Was having trouble finding a suitable chart at Odyssey's main site here in the US.

2) Smart charging systems are supposed to stop charging when temperatures exceed certain limits. Temperature compensating chargers are best oriented to battery temperature instead of ambient. I can't remember the exact (battery) temp charging should cease, but I think it's around 122 deg F.

3) Alternator charging voltage provided is really not sufficient to fully charge the Platinum in the absorption stage. The battery needs 14.7 volts to be able to accept all the current it can take. When battery current drops to <100ma, charging voltage should drop to float of ~13.6 volts. This is not the way alternators are designed to operate. Here is a link to the Technical Manual describing in greater depth the needs for these batteries. http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-TM-001_0411_000.pdf . While there is a lot of information here one can get lost in, the important thing is to have the correct charger. There is a way to charge the battery manually, but I don't recommend it unless you have time to baby sit the process and follow it to the letter.

4) I am guessing that the NL system is a "National Lunar" system. I'm not familiar with it. All I can offer is that for the maximum life to be extracted from the Platinums, the charge profile of your charging system should be what Odyssey recommends. So, I suggest comparing the NL systems charge profile to the recommended Odyssey charging profile. I would abandon the NL system if it isn't up to the task.

1- JK = Jeep Wrangler Rubicon (see sig) Main battery is starting battery for the Jeep and Aux runs arb fridge, aux lights, and various powered electronics. Day to Day, the only loads are usually my phone charging, so not much. Biggest draw when off is the fridge but that is only on trips.

2- The National Luna system is rated for high temps, we haven't seen anything over 110 F, and I'm told by the reps high heat shouldn't be an issue for this system.

3 - If no alternator is going to reach the proper charge rate (which I believe) then how often are the batteries going to need conditioning? or the better question, why are any of us running these in the first place?

4- National Luna Split Charge system - This is the manual which shows the wiring diagram. http://www.nationalluna.com/Datasheets/Split-charge%20manual.pdf

I'm going to bypass the system and see if the main battery will at least come back up to a better resting rate for starters.

 

[wrcsixeight]

Odysseys are great batteries, but when deeply cycled they need specific charge protocol, and few alternators are going to meet this.


So a group 31 discharged to 50% needs 40 amps until 14.7v is reached. 14.7v is then to be held for 4 hours or until current required to maintain 14.7v falls below 0.1 amp, then float at 13.6v.

Everything else is a compromise.

Achieving a 40 amp rate until 14.7 is reached is not easy. Most automatic chargers will come nowhere close.

Expecting the alternator to do this is foolhardy, but a few vehicles, if driven long enough, could.

Obviously if they do not get this regimen they are not going to fall flat instantly, but they will age faster.

I use a meanwell rsp-500-15 switching power supply as my AC charger, it will do 41 amps and will do any voltage between 13.32 and 19.23 But it is a manual charger, not a set it an forget it and wait for a lying green light to flash. I've got to turn it off, or lower the voltage manually, and the 4 hour threshhold at 14.7v is dang close to 0.1 amps at the end of that 4 hours. I could get an intermatic spring wound timer and just set it to 14.7v and crank it upto 4 hours.

I have a Northstar battery, which is similar to Odyssey, and this NS battery rated at 90 Amp hours, loves this high recharge rate. It holds a significantly higher voltage under discharge when it gets recharged by 40 amps, compared to 12amps from my solar.

I find this battery to be extremely impressive, but if I could not recharge it at 40+ amps, I bet I would not have this high opinion of it.

 

[dstock]

Odysseys are great batteries, but when deeply cycled they need specific charge protocol, and few alternators are going to meet this.


So a group 31 discharged to 50% needs 40 amps until 14.7v is reached. 14.7v is then to be held for 4 hours or until current required to maintain 14.7v falls below 0.1 amp, then float at 13.6v.

Everything else is a compromise.

Achieving a 40 amp rate until 14.7 is reached is not easy. Most automatic chargers will come nowhere close.

Expecting the alternator to do this is foolhardy, but a few vehicles, if driven long enough, could.

Obviously if they do not get this regimen they are not going to fall flat instantly, but they will age faster.

I use a meanwell rsp-500-15 switching power supply as my AC charger, it will do 41 amps and will do any voltage between 13.32 and 19.23 But it is a manual charger, not a set it an forget it and wait for a lying green light to flash. I've got to turn it off, or lower the voltage manually, and the 4 hour threshhold at 14.7v is dang close to 0.1 amps at the end of that 4 hours. I could get an intermatic spring wound timer and just set it to 14.7v and crank it upto 4 hours.

I have a Northstar battery, which is similar to Odyssey, and this NS battery rated at 90 Amp hours, loves this high recharge rate. It holds a significantly higher voltage under discharge when it gets recharged by 40 amps, compared to 12amps from my solar.

I find this battery to be extremely impressive, but if I could not recharge it at 40+ amps, I bet I would not have this high opinion of it.

So if I were to pickup the Odyssey charger designed for the Platinums, how often do you think I would need to "condition" them? My Jeep is my daily driver, although from the looks of the time the Odyssey charger needs it should be possible to condition them overnight. Also, my main/starting battery has never been deeply discharged, where my aux has been hit more heavily.

 

[dwh]

Lead-acid batteries are not precise electronic components - they are sloppy chemistry experiments in a plastic box.

To get them fully charged, you have to keep supplying power until the electrolyte (sloppy stuff) cannot absorb any more electrons.

You can do that fast, and in the case of the Odysseys, that can be very fast indeed. Odysseys are rated to accept charge currents of C*4, which is capacity times four. So if you have a 100ah Odyssey, you can pump up to 400 amps of charge current into it without voiding the warranty. Parallel two of them, and double it to 800 amps.

But of course, no one does that since pretty much no one has 400 or 800 amps of charge current available.


Which means, that pretty much no one ever charges an Odyssey at its maximum rate.

In other words...slow. Or slower anyway.

If you've got only a 100a charger, then it'll take 4 times longer to get that battery full, than it would if you had 400 amps of charger.

But even though it's slower, it WILL eventually get the battery charged. Hell, even a 15a charger would eventually get the battery fully charged. It'll just take longer.


Even if your charger - for instance, a voltage regulated alternator - tops out at "only" 14.1 or 14.3 or 14.5 volts, it WILL still eventually get the electrolyte to the point where it won't hold any more electrons.

The problem is that word - eventually...

With an automotive constant voltage power supply - for instance a voltage regulated alternator - it can take a LONG time to get ANY deep cycle lead-acid battery fully absorbed. Long as in, 8 hours of drive time...or 24 hours...or MORE.

How long it will take depends on how far down the battery was when you started, how undersized your wiring is (factory charge wiring is always undersized), and how smart your voltage regulator is (most aren't very smart).

Once the battery does finally reach a full charge, then letting it sit overnight with no load, and it should be right at 12.8v. If it's lower, then it's either heavily sulfated - or it never did actually reach a full charge in the first place (the most likely reason).



The temp rating of the NL is the rating that the device can handle and still work. That's totally different than the "temperature compensation" that a smart battery charger can do.



Any time a lead-acid battery is at less than 100% absorbed, sulfation will be happening. Getting the electrolyte back to fully absorbed as fast as possible (without voiding the warranty by charging with too much current or overheating the battery) is the best way to achieve long life because it minimizes the time that sulfation is occurring.

Desulfation does work. I bought a battery charger with desulfation just to play with that and find out for myself if it really does work. It does.

But...it won't restore a battery to "like new", and the best bet is to minimize sulfation to begin with.

I would say in teotwaki's case, it would be worth a shot to desufate the battery. Battery MINDer new also sells a standalone desulfator, which only activates when it detects a charging voltage, so it doesn't run 24/7 and drain the battery.

http://www.batteryminders.com/batteryminder-model-obd-12-12volt-12v-onboard-desulfator/

http://www.amazon.com/BatteryMINDer-OnBoard-Battery-Restorer-Conditioner/dp/B001DZHTD2


Personally, I wouldn't buy the Battery MINDer 2a charger that was recommended earlier. Too small. I'd just go ahead and spring for the biggest they have, which IIRC is 8a. Even 8a is way too small, but if you're buying it for the desulfation anyway, might as well get the most amps you can get as well.

 

[dwh]

So if I were to pickup the Odyssey charger designed for the Platinums, how often do you think I would need to "condition" them?

There are only two ways to "condition" a lead-acid battery. Equalization, and deslfation.

EQ is something that you just DO NOT do to any sealed battery - unless you've got a very precise power supply, and the top secret factory EQ numbers (which, they will tell you do not exist at the same time they'll tell you to never EQ a sealed battery).

Desulfation takes a long time. With a Battery MINDer, if the battery is heavily sulfated, it can take a week or two to see any significant gains, and it can take a month or two before it stops getting better. So if you used one of those, put it on your battery every night and it will have done all it can in a few months.

The charger I bought to play with desulfation has a 24 hour timer, and the instructions say if you don't see any improvement after 5-7 24 hour sessions, then it's not going to help and you should replace the battery. When I was testing it on a known heavily sulfated battery, I saw improvement in the first 24 hour session. It took about 20 24 hours sessions until the battery stopped showing any improvement.

 

[dstock]

How about option #3 - Go back to Sears, have them swap my batteries out, and then get a Battery MINDer standalone desulfator to help prevent this from happening in the first place?

 

[dwh]

How about option #3 - Go back to Sears, have them swap my batteries out, and then get a Battery MINDer standalone desulfator to help prevent this from happening in the first place?

Good plan - IF the problem is sulfation. If the problem is the battery just isn't getting fully charged because you don't drive enough, then you'll be better off with a Battery MINDer charger that can top off the battery AND desulfate it at night.

And I *think* you'd actually need one of those standalones for each battery.

 

[dstock]

Good plan - IF the problem is sulfation. If the problem is the battery just isn't getting fully charged because you don't drive enough, then you'll be better off with a Battery MINDer charger that can top off the battery AND desulfate it at night.

And I *think* you'd actually need one of those standalones for each battery.

Thanks for the help!

I have an hour commute each way every day so charging time isn't an issue assuming the NL split charger is functioning properly. Going to bypass that tonight, and see if things improve on the main battery for starters.

The standalone you referenced will actually do two batteries according to the manual.

 

[dwh]

The standalone you referenced will actually do two batteries according to the manual.

That's perfect then. When there's charging voltage, the NL will tie the batteries, and the desulfator will do them both. Nice.

 

[wrcsixeight]

I spoke at length with an Odyssey engineer, and he was rather adamant that a deeply discharged Odyssey simply needed the 40% charge rate, or 40 amps for their group 31 battery rated at 100 amp hours.

He said that lower charge rates would not return their deeply cycled battery to maximum energy density, and the deeper the discharge the more important it was to recharge it at a high rate, and pretty much the higher the rate, the better. He also said a chronically undercharged battery would need to be discharged at least 3 times to ~50% then recharged at the mandated minimum 40% rate before it would return to its remaining maximum capacity.

So in the case of this particular AGM battery, You cannot just say any charger is going to be able to fully charge this deeply cycled battery, given enough time. The initial amperage rate is incredibly important.

Lifeline AGM batteries, made by Concorde rolls/surette are pretty much the top dog AGM. They have a very detailed PDF about the proper care and charging of their batteries, and they do have a "conditioning' Procedure, which is very close to what one would apply to a Flooded battery, with voltages in the 15.5v range.

Scroll down to section 5.5 on page 20
http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf

I dont want to complicate the issue, but the odyssey engineer i spoke with did mention another way to return their batteries back to 100% maximum energy density, but it involved voltages upto 16.5v and very low amperages to slowly get the battery way up there, and finding a charging source which can do this is even more difficult.

I've applied the batteryminder 12248 to several flooded batteries for extended periods, which were near the end of their lives and got no performance increase, so in my few experiences with desulfating chargers, they did not work.

Best charger I've ever had is my Meanwell power supply. It allows me to choose the absorption voltage and duration at which Absorption voltage is held, and 41 amps is good for a single Odyssey AGM group 31. I've modified it with a 10 turn potentiometer to easily adjust voltage, and have a Amp hour counter plumbed inline to see how much it is providing.

Resurrecting chronically undercharged batteries is rarely effective. Restoring lost capacity is usually a pipe dream. Much better to not chronically undercharge it in the first place, and this is more complicated than slapping any charging source on it and hoping for the best, unfortunately.

 

[remote camper]

1- JK = Jeep Wrangler Rubicon (see sig) Main battery is starting battery for the Jeep and Aux runs arb fridge, aux lights, and various powered electronics. Day to Day, the only loads are usually my phone charging, so not much. Biggest draw when off is the fridge but that is only on trips.

2- The National Luna system is rated for high temps, we haven't seen anything over 110 F, and I'm told by the reps high heat shouldn't be an issue for this system.

3 - If no alternator is going to reach the proper charge rate (which I believe) then how often are the batteries going to need conditioning? or the better question, why are any of us running these in the first place?

4- National Luna Split Charge system - This is the manual which shows the wiring diagram. http://www.nationalluna.com/Datasheets/Split-charge%20manual.pdf

I'm going to bypass the system and see if the main battery will at least come back up to a better resting rate for starters.

A lot of people have jumped into this since one guy woke up this thread asking about a sale. So I'm going to focus on your issue:

1) First, thanks for clarifying. I don't see any big loads there either. If your vehicle is a daily driver, I don't see the vehicle's On Board computer, memory settings in the radio, or maybe even an alarm causing any real issue.

2) The NL system is rated for 110 deg for its function as a monitor/intelligent battery switching device for load handling and charging. It isn't a charger per se, it is simply a controller. It relies on the alternator as is charging source. If you examine its profile for administering charge, it's output is limited by the alternator and when the profile is compared to the Odyssey profile, it isn't sufficient as a stand alone charger for the Platinums.

3a) How often to recharge? Looking at the NL documentation, it states to recharge the batteries IAW the mfr specs, in this case the Odyssee profile. (See bottom of page 9). Previously, I stated I was using a 2012-AGM to maintain my batteries. I am NOT recommending you do the same. For specific reasons, it works for me because I do not subject these batteries to less than a 90% state of charge. Under those circumstances, I can get away with that. My longer term plan is to get the Ultimizer 25 amp charger.

I suggest you monitor your batteries to make sure they "live" above 12.84 volts at rest. If you find them going below that, use the Odyssee recommended charge profile that keeps them above that. If you discharge them to a lower state of charge or you don't want to have 2 chargers (like I will), you will likely find the Ultimizer recommended for your battery to be exactly what you need. Each battery must be treated separately with a single stage charger. If you want to hook both batteries up at the same time, get a multistage charger. The charger switches full charge to each battery separately for a prescribed time ensuring that full voltage and current goes to each battery. If you try to use a single stage on both, the current will be divided between the 2 batteries.

3b) We use these batteries for a number of reasons. They don't require water to be added. There are no associated electrolyte spills. They are virtually immune to terminal corrosion. The Platinums are rated for dual service- BOTH starting and deep cycle (in NL terms high cycle and deep cycle). They are powerful in the high cycle mode. Mine supply 930 CCA vs the Ford spec of 750 CCA for a battery with the same physical dimensions.

4) Thanks for pointing me to the documentation. Sounds like an interesting system. I wouldn't bypass it unless it's defective. Just don't rely on it as your sole source of charging the Platinums. Monitor the resting voltages of your Platinums and put them on an appropriate charging profile tailored to your use. Get an approved Odyssee charger.

I will keep the 2012-AGM to keep a float charge a battery that has been treated with the 25 amp Ultimizer, then use the Ultimizer on the the other battery. That way I won't need an expensive multistage Ultimizer and I won't have to be concerned with switching the single stage Ultimizer back and forth between batteries.

 

[remote camper]

How about option #3 - Go back to Sears, have them swap my batteries out, and then get a Battery MINDer standalone desulfator to help prevent this from happening in the first place?

I would try to go back to Sears and get them replaced. When you do, take a voltmeter with you and pick a pair of batteries that are showing the highest resting voltages (above 12.84 if possible). Of course, if they just got done charging them, that will be skewed. If your batteries NEVER see below a 90% state of charge, you might be able to get away with a BatteryMINDer. For obvious reasons, I'm not going to guarantee it, but that's what I'm currently doing. Mine are in their 3rd winter cranking a diesel and they rest at 12.9 volts. Use it on one battery at a time (no load) for maximum benefit. Like I mentioned earlier, I'll end up with the Ultimzer, too for the reasons stated.

 

[remote camper]

You only need the 40% rate if the battery has been deeply discharged and needs that charge rate commensurate with its depth of discharge to recover (recharge). A battery at 90% state of charge (10% DOD) is likely not going to need or even take on that blast of current.

 

[wrcsixeight]

You only need the 40% rate if the battery has been deeply discharged and needs that charge rate commensurate with its depth of discharge to recover (recharge). A battery at 90% state of charge (10% DOD) is likely not going to need or even take on that blast of current.

It will take it, but amps will taper pretty quickly.

I was rather surprised to see 40.94 amps from my MeanWell power supply when plugging it into a battery with only 4 AH removed from it, but within 30 seconds amps were in the 15 range, and after a minute down to 7 or so.

My Northstar group 27 AGM will suck up 110 amps from my alternator easily when 30 AH from full.

Im going to install a thermocouple on my alternator to see how hot it gets feeding thirsty batteries over thick cabling, to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[remote camper]

wrcsixeight-

Nothing speaks to the subject like real data. It's great you have the capacity to actually see what's going on using the MeanWell.

Am going to add an addtional link for us Odyssee/Platinum owners. I remember downloading all of this stuff when I decided on the Platinums 3 years ago. One passage that we need to heed from the Odyssee owner's manual is:

"To get long life from the ODYSSEY® battery, it is important that the battery is kept near full charge, approximately 12.8V. If there are electrical loads during storage, then the negative battery cable should be disconnected or an independent float charger used. Low power 2.0 amp chargers for storage charge will keep a fully charged battery fully charged but cannot recharge if the ODYSSEY battery becomes discharged."

The manual is available here: http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-OM-012_1014.pdf