Odyssey vs. Diehard Platinum
- Thread starter adventureduo
- Start date
remote camper
Observer
wrcsixeight
Adventurer
I don't believe how quickly voltage falls after a charging source is removed is the be all end all of determining a battery's condition. But if it drops fast completely disconnected from all loads, that is a certainty it is bad, but if it does not, does not necessarily mean it is good. A battery as it ages is like a fuel tank which keeps getting smaller. You can still fill it up ~12.84v+, but when it was new it contained 35 gallons, when it is older and abused it now has 18 gallons.
One reason I went with a Northstar over an Odyssey was the longer list of approved chargers. But I would love it if NS has better documentation as their PDF leaves a lot to be desired. They do state a fully charged NS battery has a fully charged and rested open circuit voltage of 13 or higher. Mine levels off at 13.06v but when i first got it it was only 12.8x something, and my previous charger would just stop and say the battery was fully charged. It was not until I did a 50% cycle then recharge at 25+ amps that I achieved the resting voltage of 13.06v and I've seen it hold 13.06 for many days even with my engine computer memory drawing on it slightly.
Now I have the 41 amp Meanwell and the Northstar is happier than a pig in feces to gobble up 41 amps until it hits 14.7 and is held there for hours. There is a noticeable difference in voltage it holds under load the next discharge cycle, and how quickly it can crank my v8 engine when it gets 41 initial amps instead of the low and slow solar ramping upto 13 amps and tapering. While I do cycle it, I really only do so if i know I have grid power for the meanwell or will be driving a long distance, as my voltage regulator will allow my alternator to produce amps until 14.9v is achieved, if the rpm ( and airflow) is there. I cycle my flooded battery almost nightly and do not baby it. It has a 'recommended' initial bulk rate of 13 amps, yet i will feed it 41 and it too will take 75+ from my alternator.
So when I see absolute voltages representing states of charge applied with a broad brush across all batteries I get a bit irritated as all batteries are a bit different and will vary within a manufacturer as well, and perhaps even among batteries coming off the same line.
I hope sears will honor the warranty if they are bad, for you, but this could just as easily be a bad case of owner abuse through incomplete understanding of charging requirements, and I am not so sure that a battery should be required to be immune from abuse, and chronic undercharging is abuse. The Odyssey approved charger for the size battery you have is a great way to maximize their remaining capacity, but they likely have lost capacity from the incomplete and chronic undercharging.
One reason I went with a Northstar over an Odyssey was the longer list of approved chargers. But I would love it if NS has better documentation as their PDF leaves a lot to be desired. They do state a fully charged NS battery has a fully charged and rested open circuit voltage of 13 or higher. Mine levels off at 13.06v but when i first got it it was only 12.8x something, and my previous charger would just stop and say the battery was fully charged. It was not until I did a 50% cycle then recharge at 25+ amps that I achieved the resting voltage of 13.06v and I've seen it hold 13.06 for many days even with my engine computer memory drawing on it slightly.
Now I have the 41 amp Meanwell and the Northstar is happier than a pig in feces to gobble up 41 amps until it hits 14.7 and is held there for hours. There is a noticeable difference in voltage it holds under load the next discharge cycle, and how quickly it can crank my v8 engine when it gets 41 initial amps instead of the low and slow solar ramping upto 13 amps and tapering. While I do cycle it, I really only do so if i know I have grid power for the meanwell or will be driving a long distance, as my voltage regulator will allow my alternator to produce amps until 14.9v is achieved, if the rpm ( and airflow) is there. I cycle my flooded battery almost nightly and do not baby it. It has a 'recommended' initial bulk rate of 13 amps, yet i will feed it 41 and it too will take 75+ from my alternator.
So when I see absolute voltages representing states of charge applied with a broad brush across all batteries I get a bit irritated as all batteries are a bit different and will vary within a manufacturer as well, and perhaps even among batteries coming off the same line.
I hope sears will honor the warranty if they are bad, for you, but this could just as easily be a bad case of owner abuse through incomplete understanding of charging requirements, and I am not so sure that a battery should be required to be immune from abuse, and chronic undercharging is abuse. The Odyssey approved charger for the size battery you have is a great way to maximize their remaining capacity, but they likely have lost capacity from the incomplete and chronic undercharging.
dstock
Explorer
I get your point and I will deal with whatever the outcome.
Perhaps however it is poor marketing on the part of Sears at least in selling batteries that need to be maintained differently when used as a starting battery in a daily driver. Nothing was said to me at Sears when I purchased it that it would require additional charging via an external charger to actually get any decent life span out of it.
Odyssey's own materials are quoted above as saying "To get long life from the ODYSSEY® battery, it is important that the battery is kept near full charge, approximately 12.8V. If there are electrical loads during storage, then the negative battery cable should be disconnected or an independent float charger used. Low power 2.0 amp chargers for storage charge will keep a fully charged battery fully charged but cannot recharge if the ODYSSEY battery becomes discharged."
This has been the case with my starting battery, so it has not been abused according to their documentation. The drop in resting charge has occurred over the last month or so and obviously I am trying to track down the origin. Even if the NL system is malfunctioning, in theory it should not affect the starting battery as it is directly connected to the factory cables and has been since day 1.
The aux battery is a different story as the NL system was malfunctioning for an undetermined time before it became apparent, and while it appears to be functioning normally, I won't know for sure until the ambient temps go up as that is when the problem occurs. If the aux battery is bad then that is more likely on me and my NL system not being aware the system had malfunctioned.
I guess the bottom line is while I appreciate the help, I don't really care for your broad brush of abuse either I guess now we are both irritated
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
So let's say you have 4 of them in a bank. Now you need a *minimum* of 160a of charge current. I would guess that is probably very rare.
Thus, it would seem that Odyssey designed a battery that in many, if not most, circumstances, will never get the minimum charge current that it requires. That would be poor design - if it were true.
I'm skeptical of his explanation. Unlike old-style NiCads, lead-acid doesn't develop a memory.
No matter if it has thin-plate pure-lead or glass matting - it still stores electrons in diluted sulphuric acid. The goal is to saturate that electrolyte. There is nothing magical about Odyssey's (or anyone else's) lead-acid batteries.
Yes, they have a "conditioning" procedure. Actually, it's one of the two types of "conditioning" that I previously described - equalization.
In fact, they even say that. From Page 20:
"NOTE: Some chargers use the term Equalizing Charge instead of Conditioning Charge. An Equalizing Charge is generally applied to flooded lead acid batteries that are susceptible to acid stratification. However, an Equalizing Charge may be used to provide a Conditioning Charge for Lifeline® batteries as described below."
They then go on to describe a couple of equalizing procedures. The second procedure is a last-ditch hail-mary which is pretty much guaranteed to open the valve and vent some of that precious electrolyte.
As I've said, battery manufacturers all DO have an EQ procedure, even for their sealed batteries. Lifeline is simply one of the few who will actually admit that they do. Most just tell their customers, "Don't EQ a sealed battery."
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
Actually, it's a split-charge relay with a brain to tell it when to energize the solenoid and tie the batteries into a single bank.
It has no profile. All it does is tie the batteries.
Again, there is no profile. The alternator is simply a constant voltage power supply, and the voltage is regulated by the voltage regulator.
If that were true, then they wouldn't sell those batteries for automotive use, since 99% of automotive charging systems behave the same way.
The problem is not that the automotive charging system is inadequate to get the battery charged. The problem is that it is a constant voltage power supply, and as such can and will take a very long time to get the job done.
Actually, that's backwards. A single stage charger will be constant voltage, and you can charge both at the same time with a constant voltage charger (which is exactly what the automotive charging system with split-charge relays does).
If you use a multi-stage charger, which does constant current bulk and then constant voltage absorb, you would want to charge the batteries independently.
No, a multi-stage charger does not operate that way. Even a multi-bank multi-stage charger does not operate that way.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
It doesn't. Under normal engine cranking use, it will draw down perhaps 1/5 of an amp*hour when you start the truck, and be charged up again within a few minutes of the bus voltage reaching 14v+.
If there are constant loads on it pulling it down 24/7, then it might need a top off with an external charger once in a while, though if you are driving two hours a day, that shouldn't be needed.
Well, if the NL is malfunctioning, then all bets are off. If it's keeping the batteries tied when it shouldn't, then the aux battery could be drawing down the cranking battery.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
And just for the hell of it, I'll describe what sulfation is...
It's rust.
Yes, rust.
The sort of rust we are all familiar with, is when an oxygen molecule binds to an iron molecule and becomes iron oxide.
Rust.
Since the metal has lost some of its molecules, when you clean off the rust, you see that the metal is corroded.
In a lead-acid battery, a sulfur molecule binds to a lead molecule and becomes lead sulfate.
Rust.
Since the lead plates have lost some of their molecules, when you break open an old battery, you will see that the lead plates are corroded.
This is why desulfation is not a magic bullet. Even if you use high-freq vibrations to break the rust loose off the plates, it won't magically restore the missing lead molecules to the plates. All it really does is to clean the rust off the plates, so they make better contact with the electrolyte.
It's rust.
Yes, rust.
The sort of rust we are all familiar with, is when an oxygen molecule binds to an iron molecule and becomes iron oxide.
Rust.
Since the metal has lost some of its molecules, when you clean off the rust, you see that the metal is corroded.
In a lead-acid battery, a sulfur molecule binds to a lead molecule and becomes lead sulfate.
Rust.
Since the lead plates have lost some of their molecules, when you break open an old battery, you will see that the lead plates are corroded.
This is why desulfation is not a magic bullet. Even if you use high-freq vibrations to break the rust loose off the plates, it won't magically restore the missing lead molecules to the plates. All it really does is to clean the rust off the plates, so they make better contact with the electrolyte.
Hilldweller
SE Expedition Society
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
Makes sense. I would guess that corrosion of thin plates would probably have a greater impact on capacity than the same amount of corrosion of thick plates.
teotwaki
Excelsior!
Not sure what I did not elaborate on but the Diehard is simply used as a starting battery. So the question laid out is buy a new cheaper battery every 3 years or buy one Diehard every 6? Dollar-wise the cheaper battery might save me a bit at the expense of swapping out twice. However I do like the long term life and reliability of the Diehard. Also more eco-friendly if I have one battery that lasts longer :elkgrin:
teotwaki
Excelsior!
it would take a modified charging system unless the lithium pack has some built in charging circuitry similar to some of A123's products that replace gelled lead acid batteries
remote camper
Observer
I am always concerned how these discussions quickly get deeply into picking the fly specks from the pepper. It takes away from expedition time. The bottom line is when you buy a battery, it's important to understand what it's designed to do and how to care for it. The old dilemma was using a starting battery as a deep cycle battery and wondering why it died so quickly. That was a very large fly speck in the pepper!
While that is still a consideration, now there are different materials, construction and "technologies", if you will. So, choosing a battery is no longer as simple as it used to be. Neither is caring for them. Diitto for chargers. We have to do our homework.
Keep it simple. The manufacturer of the battery is the first place you should turn to understand both to get maximum life from it. When you select a charger, you need to look to the charger manufacturer to understand the charge profile well enough to see if it matches the needs of the battery. If you add battery management equipment, understand what it does and doesn't do.
Voltages are not absolute are not the absolute rule when trying to determine battery condition. They are merely indicators of condition. State of Charge charts can be different for deep cycle and starting batteries as well as AGMs. Battery design, surface charges, loads and age of the battery can affect voltages you might expect. For flooded batteries, I use voltage as a quick and dirty indicator and confirm suspicious condition with a refractometer. My experience is that they closely correlate and generally, I have acquired a high degree of confidence in voltage measurements. With an AGM, how its performing along with voltage is really all you have have unless you want to run load tests as described in the Technical Manual for the Odssyee for more accurate assessment. Which brings me to another point. It's also important to get access to the battery manufacturer technical publications. Odyssey provides excellent materials. The pdfs can be downloaded and taken with you on expedtions. Discussions with the battery mfr's enginneering dept are also very helpful. Even though much of what they tell you can be found in their technical publications and operator's manuals, Odyssey has always been helpful in developing a greater understanding of newer practices for their batteries that seem to run against the old world rules of caring for flooded batteries.
Batteries WILL wear out and they can be killed. You can avoid killing them prematurely by following the manufacturers recommendations for their use and care. It's really not that difficult and you don't really need to separate the all the flyspecks from the pepper.. Whether a device is understood as a " a split-charge relay with a brain to tell it when to energize the solenoid and tie the batteries into a single bank" or as a "controller" and "monitor" doesn't really matter. What does matter is to understand the device's limitations and that in this case, it's not a replacement for charging the battery according to the manufacturer's recommendations. The NL manual says so.
I do apologize for referring to the Ultimizer as a multi-stage charger instead of multi-bank charger. While the Utimizer multi-bank chargers are also multi stage (bulk, absorption, float), the multi-bank chargers are designed for charging more than on battery at a time. Why is that important? The mfr's materials describe why. Nowadays, you can often download technical materials for free. I avoid mfrs that don't offer them.
If you care for your battery IAW with manufacturer recommendations, you likely NEVER have to think of sulfation as rust for the useful life of your battery! My experience is that while there might be some similarity in thinking that way, an -oxide is not an -ate, and while the -ate will destroy a battery, my understanding is that it is also returned to solution during charging...not all of it mind you, but most of it. Equalization and desulfation can help reverse sulfation as long as you recharge a discharged battery promptly. Of course, if you are following mfr's recommendations that's what you will do.
I have had great success in getting longer life out of flooded deep cycle batteries via desulfating and equalization. I have even salvaged 5 more years of useful life out $500 worth of 1 year old deep cycle batteries that were going to be tossed. They were never 100% again, but the operative word is "useful" for some pretty demanding service. Desulfation is not a magic bullet as someone stated previously, especially for an abused or neglected battery or one that is simply at the end of its life.
While there might be a process for equalizing a non-flooded battery, we need to know that we don't want to hear the local battery guy telling us that's what our AGM needs and that it's not something we want to try ourselves. I have a very good $40 15 amp Duracell (Xantrex) charger with an equalization setting. Flooded battery- OK; AGM- NOT OK !! Without separating that fly speck from the pepper, an unaware expeditioner can kill an AGM.
When separating the fly specks from the pepper, take care on how deep you want to go. Otherwise, you spend more time doing that than what you bought your batteries for! Understand the capabilities, limitations and care of your equipment and you should be fine. The last thing you want is your equipment failing you on an expedition for something that was covered in a readily available user guide/technical materials.
While that is still a consideration, now there are different materials, construction and "technologies", if you will. So, choosing a battery is no longer as simple as it used to be. Neither is caring for them. Diitto for chargers. We have to do our homework.
Keep it simple. The manufacturer of the battery is the first place you should turn to understand both to get maximum life from it. When you select a charger, you need to look to the charger manufacturer to understand the charge profile well enough to see if it matches the needs of the battery. If you add battery management equipment, understand what it does and doesn't do.
Voltages are not absolute are not the absolute rule when trying to determine battery condition. They are merely indicators of condition. State of Charge charts can be different for deep cycle and starting batteries as well as AGMs. Battery design, surface charges, loads and age of the battery can affect voltages you might expect. For flooded batteries, I use voltage as a quick and dirty indicator and confirm suspicious condition with a refractometer. My experience is that they closely correlate and generally, I have acquired a high degree of confidence in voltage measurements. With an AGM, how its performing along with voltage is really all you have have unless you want to run load tests as described in the Technical Manual for the Odssyee for more accurate assessment. Which brings me to another point. It's also important to get access to the battery manufacturer technical publications. Odyssey provides excellent materials. The pdfs can be downloaded and taken with you on expedtions. Discussions with the battery mfr's enginneering dept are also very helpful. Even though much of what they tell you can be found in their technical publications and operator's manuals, Odyssey has always been helpful in developing a greater understanding of newer practices for their batteries that seem to run against the old world rules of caring for flooded batteries.
Batteries WILL wear out and they can be killed. You can avoid killing them prematurely by following the manufacturers recommendations for their use and care. It's really not that difficult and you don't really need to separate the all the flyspecks from the pepper.. Whether a device is understood as a " a split-charge relay with a brain to tell it when to energize the solenoid and tie the batteries into a single bank" or as a "controller" and "monitor" doesn't really matter. What does matter is to understand the device's limitations and that in this case, it's not a replacement for charging the battery according to the manufacturer's recommendations. The NL manual says so.
I do apologize for referring to the Ultimizer as a multi-stage charger instead of multi-bank charger. While the Utimizer multi-bank chargers are also multi stage (bulk, absorption, float), the multi-bank chargers are designed for charging more than on battery at a time. Why is that important? The mfr's materials describe why. Nowadays, you can often download technical materials for free. I avoid mfrs that don't offer them.
If you care for your battery IAW with manufacturer recommendations, you likely NEVER have to think of sulfation as rust for the useful life of your battery! My experience is that while there might be some similarity in thinking that way, an -oxide is not an -ate, and while the -ate will destroy a battery, my understanding is that it is also returned to solution during charging...not all of it mind you, but most of it. Equalization and desulfation can help reverse sulfation as long as you recharge a discharged battery promptly. Of course, if you are following mfr's recommendations that's what you will do.
I have had great success in getting longer life out of flooded deep cycle batteries via desulfating and equalization. I have even salvaged 5 more years of useful life out $500 worth of 1 year old deep cycle batteries that were going to be tossed. They were never 100% again, but the operative word is "useful" for some pretty demanding service. Desulfation is not a magic bullet as someone stated previously, especially for an abused or neglected battery or one that is simply at the end of its life.
While there might be a process for equalizing a non-flooded battery, we need to know that we don't want to hear the local battery guy telling us that's what our AGM needs and that it's not something we want to try ourselves. I have a very good $40 15 amp Duracell (Xantrex) charger with an equalization setting. Flooded battery- OK; AGM- NOT OK !! Without separating that fly speck from the pepper, an unaware expeditioner can kill an AGM.
When separating the fly specks from the pepper, take care on how deep you want to go. Otherwise, you spend more time doing that than what you bought your batteries for! Understand the capabilities, limitations and care of your equipment and you should be fine. The last thing you want is your equipment failing you on an expedition for something that was covered in a readily available user guide/technical materials.
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