Old Rovers Too Feeble?

[Chazz Layne]

The system doesn't fill to maximum ride height when the ride height sensor dies, because it has no way of determining if it has reached maximum height. With that issue I could see it disabling the compressor simply to protect the system from overfilling. I agree though, the seemingly panicked "DUMP ALL THE AIR!!!1" mode the system goes into is probably the second worst decision the system could make (second only to running the compressor 100% and damaging the airbags/lines or burning out the compressor).

 

[LR Max]

That's what I find odd too. He says he picked up the FJ to "modify" it for his modern travels. In this thread he sites the rovers 10 spline axles and suspect brakes when reversing a hill as examples of the models feeble characteristics. Axles and brakes are "modified" ALL the time in other vehicles (including FJ's) classic and modern alike. I just don't find it to be a genuine arguement of one vs. another.

The question I pose is would you rather have a rover with 10 spline axles...or a Jeep TJ with the Dana 35 rear axle? Its hilarious because all my jeep friends just carry spare shafts. Also I am pretty sure swapping out a 10 spline is a lot easier than a C-clip semi-float.

Also if I were to wheel a newer vehicle, I'd be buying one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004KL0I9I/

Also I'd be ditching my SAE set of wrenches and sockets. Maybe throw in the Torx or whatever they use on the newer LR3's. But yeah, have a fault, take note of it, clear it. Keep going. About as easy as adjusting the throttle linkage on a series or tightening down a loose bolt.

 

[evilfij]

10 spline axles are overblown as a weak spot. On a heavily laden 109, maybe they would be an issue, but they often last the life of the truck and take about 20min to change and rarely cause additional failures.

 

[overlander]

10 spline axles are overblown as a weak spot. On a heavily laden 109, maybe they would be an issue, but they often last the life of the truck and take about 20min to change and rarely cause additional failures.

I had this discussion with James Brown of NLX when I was in Guatemala with them. NLX runs 10 splines on their both their 200 TDI 110's and have never broke an axle.

 

[1leglance]

I love that this thread is over 220 post....we all really need to spend more time in the dirt and less on the computer....myself most of all.
I mainly view Expo at work during downtime. Oh how I need to work less and play more.

 

[proper4wd]

The system doesn't fill to maximum ride height when the ride height sensor dies, because it has no way of determining if it has reached maximum height. With that issue I could see it disabling the compressor simply to protect the system from overfilling. I agree though, the seemingly panicked "DUMP ALL THE AIR!!!1" mode the system goes into is probably the second worst decision the system could make (second only to running the compressor 100% and damaging the airbags/lines or burning out the compressor).

The problem is that without a valid height reference for each corner, the system has no idea how to set the height. There is built in logic that will override one or maybe two intermittent height sensors, but that works best on level surfaces. Off road, when you combine no input from one corner with widely changing values from other corners, the system loses its logic reference and goes to limp mode.

I would ask, what is a safer way to operate the vehicle: with the suspension extended to max ride height (full extension of bags, max pressure), with 3 corners at normal height and one at the bumpstop (unlevel vehicle), or the entire system on the bumpstops (level vehicle, stable)?

It makes sense. It is not a panicked reaction, it is a calculated response to a condition.

 

[LR Max]

10 spline axles are overblown as a weak spot. On a heavily laden 109, maybe they would be an issue, but they often last the life of the truck and take about 20min to change and rarely cause additional failures.

Pretty much. However within the expo crowd, more is better. You have a big truck? Better use all of it. Don't have a big truck? Obviously you need a trailer. With this in mind, you need everything to be heavy duty just because you are at max vehicle weight.

That is one thing I've learned in the last couple of years (however it took me 10 years) is I'll have more fun if I'm not screwing around with a bunch of gear. I've got day trip down to using the front passenger floorboard. Back is completely empty. When traveling solo, I try sleep in the back so not shifting around a bunch of crap is crucial. For an overnighters, I've ditched the 5 gallon water jug for a 1 gallon one (plus my fleet of nalgenes) and I've switched over to using a jet boil stove. Considering how little space it takes up, that helps.

I bought a nice big coleman green 2 burner stove, a giant canopy, and a nice portable propane grille. All that gets left at home along with numerous other useless items.

 

[overlander]

The problem is that without a valid height reference for each corner, the system has no idea how to set the height. There is built in logic that will override one or maybe two intermittent height sensors, but that works best on level surfaces. Off road, when you combine no input from one corner with widely changing values from other corners, the system loses its logic reference and goes to limp mode.

I would ask, what is a safer way to operate the vehicle: with the suspension extended to max ride height (full extension of bags, max pressure), with 3 corners at normal height and one at the bumpstop (unlevel vehicle), or the entire system on the bumpstops (level vehicle, stable)?

It makes sense. It is not a panicked reaction, it is a calculated response to a condition.

I would think that in almost every case, the moment a sensor failed or a fault occurs, it is most likely that whatever the airbags are at are what was needed. If anything, instead of dropping the suspension to the bumpstops (which offroad is just the same as jettisoning the wheels like the Apollo Stage I rocket), equalize the available pressure across all 4 airbags to eliminate any cross link difference. Alternatively or additionally, they could have added the ability to manually adjust each wheel height in increments on the touchscreen, as an override to any height sensor failure. They could even add a legal disclaimer screen like GPS's have.

Point being, while the suspension issues are rare in current fleet of LR products, they could have designed failure modes a little better to cover all demographic markets, not just the pompous.

 

[proper4wd]

Well, it doesnt quite work like that from an OEM perspective. The vehicle works flawlessly for 99% of users, including most off road users. Then the aftermarket is there for that extra support. (and they do offer the types of solutions you describe)

I have a pretty intricate knowledge of the EAS system on these trucks so maybe I am more understanding of it. Land Rover designed and built the best independent suspension system, and the best air suspension system the market has ever seen for a 4wd and they both just happen to be on the same vehicle (LR4). Yes of course it is limited in some respects compared to the Defender live axle/coil setup. But then that is limited in some respects compared to the old Series leaf sprung setup.

Some of this is starting to sound very similar to that old debate from the "coilers vs. leafers". Now we have the "coilers & leafers vs. EAS". At least the two old hat parties have teamed up finally. Me, I appreciate everything all these rigs have to offer!

 

[overlander]

Well, it doesnt quite work like that from an OEM perspective. The vehicle works flawlessly for 99% of users, including most off road users. Then the aftermarket is there for that extra support. (and they do offer the types of solutions you describe)

I have a pretty intricate knowledge of the EAS system on these trucks so maybe I am more understanding of it. Land Rover designed and built the best independent suspension system, and the best air suspension system the market has ever seen for a 4wd and they both just happen to be on the same vehicle (LR4). Yes of course it is limited in some respects compared to the Defender live axle/coil setup. But then that is limited in some respects compared to the old Series leaf sprung setup.

Some of this is starting to sound very similar to that old debate from the "coilers vs. leafers". Now we have the "coilers & leafers vs. EAS". At least the two old hat parties have teamed up finally. Me, I appreciate everything all these rigs have to offer!

I'll be the first to admit I don't know squat about anything Rover past the D2, so my comments should come with disclaimer of limited knowledge based on comments of others. That said, I'm hearing consistently very good things about the reliability of the LR4, and wouldn't hesitate to own one (but I would never sell my 110 unless I needed a lung transplant or something like that). And please don't lump me together with the black oval folks. I love old rovers, but that has more to do with overlanding lifestyle, and I am not a can-o-beans on the manifold cooking kind of guy. Been in the army too long to voluntarily suffer while traveling for personal reasons.

BTW, I completely agree with your statement "As always, its 10% vehicle, 20% having the right tools, and 70% knowing what to do with it." Many of these faults have been dealt with aftermarket, and a few sensor spares and the now affordable portable ECU interfaces allow quick recovery. I was merely commenting on the OEM fault logic path that brought the vehicle to the bumpstops. I just don't agree with it, despite the easy of recovery from that situation.

But I'll still take my TDI anyday for extended overland travel if given the choice. I have one ECU in my vehicle, and it's part of the A/C. and I have a spare!

 

[Mack73]

Guys don't get too hung up on the EAS dump to bump stops. Easy solutions to this problem:
1) get a tool to clear faults like the IIDTool. This will let you temporarily get the fault cleared so the compressor will run (till it detects the fault again).
2. Let the compressor run til it is at 100% or at a height you want it at
3) Pull the 2 fuses from under the hood that controls: a) Terrain Response and b) the air bag dump valves.

Basically doing exactly what you want. There was only 1 time when we simply couldn't clear the fault to get the compressor to run. THere was a damaged height sensor that would immediately trip a fault (it thought it was WAY outside normal values). Anyways, we simply jacked up the vehicle to get the height sensor out of the position it was in, and it started pumping again.

After being out on the trail and doing this manuever a couple times. I am NOT concerned at all with the down to bump stops mode. Only risk I have is a blown/ripped bag. They do have aluminum covers to keep small debris out - but I'm working on a steel cover. Cut airlines can esaily be trail repaired.

 

[David Harris]

This. . .

Last year an Australian Off road magazine did extensive testing of stock SUV's in the outback.

The LR3 received top marks until the computer malfunctioned. Even with a team of technicians and satellite phone connection to Land Rover Australia they couldn't get the vehicle to run.

They abandoned it in the outback.

Now I’m sure the same thing could happen to any new vehicle, this example just happened to occur in a well covered expedition.

 

[Plebian]

This. . .

Superiority doesn't come without risks.

 

[David Harris]

Superiority doesn't come without risks.

That's a good motto for Land Rover's in general.

 

[JSBriggs]

Superiority doesn't come without risks.

Superiority is a matter of opinion. The same holds true for inferiority.

-Jeff