Open Differentials vs. Traction Control vs. Lockers

[nickw]

It doesn't.

I did too, till I actually tried it. Here I am about 7 years later with my flat fender which runs an automatic front locker and rear selectable locker . I ran cross country, hundreds of miles of snow wheeling up north, through two Ultimate Adventures with 4 wheel off-road magazine, and dozens of trips up the harder trails in moab.

A lot of people are stuck in the 'old' way of thinking in my opinion and not really open (ha) to trying different combos.

There are people still thinking about how to do this stuff better....


Here is John Curries thoughts on the matter.


Here is my good ol' flat fender running up Pritchett Canyon in Moab ( try and spot the very intermittent rear locker use )

I always encourage people to think about this stuff. We aren't learning anything new trying the same thing over and over again.

My new build, the #lx45, is seletable/selectable. It hands down it gives up some '3-wheel drive' performance to the old Jeep. I am still testing and evaluating how to make it work better. I built it with hydraulic assist steering to help deal with the steering force issues with the selectable front locker. It helps, but honestly, if it wasn't still full time 4wd, I would seriously consider swapping out the front selectable locker for an automatic locker.

I am adding the ability to control the left/right rear brakes on the old jeep next. Hopefully I will be able to add the ability to drive only the front axle in the near future. I am also going to be replacing the old Dana 30 narrow track front axle with a Roxor front axle. I wouldn't consider anything but an automatic front locker at this point.

For "wheeling" you may be right, but talking general road/expedition travel and in my particular scenario of offcamber icy sidehill, a front locker would have put us in the same predicament. I also don't like the idea of locker anything in 4wd on an icy highway through the mountains....

 

[Metcalf]

For "wheeling" you may be right, but talking general road/expedition travel and in my particular scenario of offcamber icy sidehill, a front locker would have put us in the same predicament. I also don't like the idea of locker anything in 4wd on an icy highway through the mountains....

So basically driving on the road then? I thought this was an off-road expedition type discussion. If you don't need lockers you don't need lockers. You could take a nice comfy AWD car.

My automatic front locker and selectable rear locker has never stopped me from going anywhere.



I drove my flatty a thousand miles north from Colorado to Montana. I did about 300 miles of snow wheeling up and over the contenential divide in everything from icy roads to 8 feet of snow without any locker issues. Then I drove it back home another thousand miles. There where plenty of offcamber icy sidehills. This was actually one of the first big trips I did in the little old jeep. It was an automatic front locker ( Yukon Spartan ) and a Power-Lok rear limited slip. Overall a great combo. A little more rear locker at times would have been nice and I changed the rear axle to an Ox locker with the internal air shift solenoid shortly after.

What most people don't seem to understand is that 99% of the bad habits of an automatic locker go away when you have the rear diff open. The front tires go where you point them when the rear axle isn't trying to push the vehicle straight ahead. The front tires are going to be pointing in the direction you want to go. The automatic locker does a BETTER job at unlocking in 3wd than a locked selectable in either the front ( because you get bind and scrub steering force ) or a rear ( because that pushes the vehicle in a straight line too much causing it to always turn wider ). If all you need is open/open to make the vehicle as capable as you need, then I got nothing for you. That is pretty easy. I am talking about situations where open/open is not enough, specifically when trying to maneuver the vehicle in tight situations.

 

[Happy Joe]

...Front or rear; in my experience, having at least one selectable locker (open) on icy side hills is usually enough to reduce/minimize the sideways slip.

Going forward, I will probably always use 2 selectable lockers; to completely remove the (usually, very rare) less than desirable aspects of, auto locker, off road travel. .. the last(original) Detroit went away in/with the CJ-7. ...When I rewire the Rubi to make the locker switches easier to use (without looking ) I will make them completely independent so I can try locking the front and opening the rear... just because its always good to try new things...

I don't really see lifting a tire now and then as all that bad indeed, haven't disconnected an anti sway bar in years; and only air down for serious wheeling.

Metcalf; a big THANX! for the Pritchett Canyon vid! ...was my favorite trail...

Enjoy!

 

[MOguy]

The army isn't exactly leaving a perfectly flat desert road to run over a small rock pile because it would look cool on a facetube page, either. So the h1 is spec'd as such.

I used to be part of the selectable front, autolocker rear group. Completely backwards, after all of those years. smh.

Articulation is extremely limited in these vehicles and it is a good example of a vehicle that will benefit greatly from a traction aid. The reason I choose the H1 as an example his how good their differentials work, and it is a vehicle I have experience with. The H1 ( the Military one anyway) uses Torsen diff. These respond really well to brake modulation which helps allot in traction without some of the negative effects of lockers.

 

[nickw]

So basically driving on the road then? I thought this was an off-road expedition type discussion. If you don't need lockers you don't need lockers. You could take a nice comfy AWD car.

My automatic front locker and selectable rear locker has never stopped me from going anywhere.



I drove my flatty a thousand miles north from Colorado to Montana. I did about 300 miles of snow wheeling up and over the contenential divide in everything from icy roads to 8 feet of snow without any locker issues. Then I drove it back home another thousand miles. There where plenty of offcamber icy sidehills. This was actually one of the first big trips I did in the little old jeep. It was an automatic front locker ( Yukon Spartan ) and a Power-Lok rear limited slip. Overall a great combo. A little more rear locker at times would have been nice and I changed the rear axle to an Ox locker with the internal air shift solenoid shortly after.

What most people don't seem to understand is that 99% of the bad habits of an automatic locker go away when you have the rear diff open. The front tires go where you point them when the rear axle isn't trying to push the vehicle straight ahead. The front tires are going to be pointing in the direction you want to go. The automatic locker does a BETTER job at unlocking in 3wd than a locked selectable in either the front ( because you get bind and scrub steering force ) or a rear ( because that pushes the vehicle in a straight line too much causing it to always turn wider ). If all you need is open/open to make the vehicle as capable as you need, then I got nothing for you. That is pretty easy. I am talking about situations where open/open is not enough, specifically when trying to maneuver the vehicle in tight situations.

You can define "Expedition" as whatever you want, but your application, or what I assume you are trying to portray as your idea of “Expedition” is niche relative to the broad definition of what most folks do. Road travel is an important part of that, as most of the seasoned expoditioners can attest to, you know the guys that do it for a living, full time and write books or blogs about it. Most have open diffs f/r, some have lockers, Tom Sheppard comes to mind and his G, but they are selectable and rarely used.

If you go back and level set yourself with the OP and his intent, you’d see we are talking general travel, not short wheelbase vehicles with huge low pressure tires wheeling on the rubicon. These guys are driving over passes, through the woods, past grandma’s house and have circumstances that may need lockers to navigate. This is not a road trip to go wheeling (like you)….

I think 99% of people get it and understand the issue, the OP pretty much summed it up “Now before you go out and weld your diff, you should know that most of the time it’s good to have an open differential. I am constantly locking and unlocking, only using it when I need it”.

Here in the PNW, with our passes and the ice/snow we get, auto lockers front or rear are a liability as most seasoned wheelers/travelers would attest to. If you live in the SW maybe it’s not an issue, but regardless of where you live, it’s a liability in the right (or wrong) conditions.

 

[MOguy]

Here in the PNW, with our passes and the ice/snow we get, auto lockers front or rear are a liability as most seasoned wheelers/travelers would attest to. If you live in the SW maybe it’s not an issue, but regardless of where you live, it’s a liability in the right (or wrong) conditions.

Here in flat old MO when it gets icy the same issue exists. Auto lockers can make your vehicle dangerous in certain conditions.

 

[MOguy]

It doesn't.

I did too, till I actually tried it. Here I am about 7 years later with my flat fender which runs an automatic front locker and rear selectable locker . I ran cross country, hundreds of miles of snow wheeling up north, through two Ultimate Adventures with 4 wheel off-road magazine, and dozens of trips up the harder trails in moab.

A lot of people are stuck in the 'old' way of thinking in my opinion and not really open (ha) to trying different combos.

There are people still thinking about how to do this stuff better....


Here is John Curries thoughts on the matter.


Here is my good ol' flat fender running up Pritchett Canyon in Moab ( try and spot the very intermittent rear locker use )

I always encourage people to think about this stuff. We aren't learning anything new trying the same thing over and over again.

My new build, the #lx45, is seletable/selectable. It hands down it gives up some '3-wheel drive' performance to the old Jeep. I am still testing and evaluating how to make it work better. I built it with hydraulic assist steering to help deal with the steering force issues with the selectable front locker. It helps, but honestly, if it wasn't still full time 4wd, I would seriously consider swapping out the front selectable locker for an automatic locker.

I am adding the ability to control the left/right rear brakes on the old jeep next. Hopefully I will be able to add the ability to drive only the front axle in the near future. I am also going to be replacing the old Dana 30 narrow track front axle with a Roxor front axle. I wouldn't consider anything but an automatic front locker at this point.

Start watching at 3 minutes on Currie's video. He even states his differential set up may not be the best in all conditions. He specifically mentions that he doesn't have experience in mud and snow and there maybe better configurations for them.

Dealing with wet slippery conditions is very different than dryer surfaces with better traction.

 

[Metcalf]

You can define "Expedition" as whatever you want, but your application, or what I assume you are trying to portray as your idea of “Expedition” is niche relative to the broad definition of what most folks do. Road travel is an important part of that, as most of the seasoned expoditioners can attest to, you know the guys that do it for a living, full time and write books or blogs about it. Most have open diffs f/r, some have lockers, Tom Sheppard comes to mind and his G, but they are selectable and rarely used.

If you go back and level set yourself with the OP and his intent, you’d see we are talking general travel, not short wheelbase vehicles with huge low pressure tires wheeling on the rubicon. These guys are driving over passes, through the woods, past grandma’s house and have circumstances that may need lockers to navigate. This is not a road trip to go wheeling (like you)….

I think 99% of people get it and understand the issue, the OP pretty much summed it up “Now before you go out and weld your diff, you should know that most of the time it’s good to have an open differential. I am constantly locking and unlocking, only using it when I need it”.

Here in the PNW, with our passes and the ice/snow we get, auto lockers front or rear are a liability as most seasoned wheelers/travelers would attest to. If you live in the SW maybe it’s not an issue, but regardless of where you live, it’s a liability in the right (or wrong) conditions.

I don't understand how driving the vehicle 2300+ miles isn't applicable.....in winter....in the snow? How much further do you want me to drive? Do you want me to drive it every day, because I have done that too.
I'm not just 'road tripping' as you put it, I build these vehicles to be driven every day. I live in the mountains of Colorado at 7000ft. We had 5 feet of snow at my house this winter.

I think 99% of the people are just regurgitating what they read on the internet by a 'famous' person and calling it gospel.

If open/open work for you by all means go ahead. Most people that don't really push their vehicles off-road would agree that is a good way to go. People are the most faminilar with driving that system and it 'feel' very normal to them. Everything I have been talking about is an evaluation of what works better/worse for the '3 wheel drive' issue. I've laid out all the plusses and minuses of the various systems. I OWN both systems ( auto/selectable and selectable/selectable) and drive them both extensively.

I'm curious if you have actually TRIED any of these different combos?

 

[Metcalf]

Here in flat old MO when it gets icy the same issue exists. Auto lockers can make your vehicle dangerous in certain conditions.

What locker combinations have you personally tried? Have you tried an automatic front and selectable rear, or are you just regurgitating common misconceptions?

 

[Metcalf]

Start watching at 3 minutes on Currie's video. He even states his differential set up may not be the best in all conditions. He specifically mentions that he doesn't have experience in mud and snow and there maybe better configurations for them.

Dealing with wet slippery conditions is very different than dryer surfaces with better traction.

I live in Colorado at 7000ft elevation where I got 5 feet of snow at my house this winter.

I own and drive BOTH combinations in those conditions. ( auto front/ selectable rear AND selectable/selectable )

 

[Buliwyf]

Come on over to the snow belt sometime.

https://www.currentresults.com/Weather-Extremes/US/snowiest-cities.php

I get to work in most of those cities in the winter. Snow is easy peasy with pavement or gravel underneath. The deeper it is the better for 4wd and lockers. When it gets plowed or melted down, better to switch back to 2wd, ....err 1wd.

 

[MOguy]

What locker combinations have you personally tried? Have you tried an automatic front and selectable rear, or are you just regurgitating common misconceptions?

Open/ARB (front and rear) on my jeep, limited slip on my 1 ton and when I was in the Army on HMMWVs. Electronic control stuf on my 4Runner and Denali. Actually automatic crap on the Denali work great in the snow, packed of fluffy. They even work as good as can be expected on the ice. Never had auto lockers, I have seen them (not in the combo you mention) but on tight trails they suck butt.

We never have snow as deep as you, mostly ice. On the snow we have locker work fine but ice they are scary.

 

[Metcalf]

Open/ARB (front and rear) on my jeep, limited slip on my 1 ton and when I was in the Army on HMMWVs.

Ok, good start. Go try a few different front lockers extensively and report back your findings.

 

[MOguy]

Ok, good start. Go try a few different front lockers extensively and report back your findings.

Nope, like I said above, I have seen auto lockers on tight trails and they suck butt. I have had ARBs since 2001 and they work great for me. I spend more time on tight trails then in snow. I am not designing my Jeep for snow days.

 

[Metcalf]

Nope, like I said above, I have seen auto lockers on tight trails and they suck butt. I have had ARBs since 2001 and they work great for me. I spend more time on tight trails then in snow. I am not designing my Jeep for snow days.

You are obviously not really reading anything I have been writing. If you just want to sit on your hands and not try to learn anything that is on you.

I agree that automatic REAR lockers suck. I hate them. I would never run one. An automatic FRONT locker however, when used in conjunction with a selectable REAR locker, is a fantastic combo. It is actually a LOT better at a lot of things than a front selectable locker. I wrote up lots about why and how a few pages back.

Remember, I own and drive both combos. That should tell you something. When I install the new front axle and locker in the flat fender soon, it will get another automatic front locker. I just spent 3 years building my LX45 from scratch. It is selectable/selectable. I was curious again after having this conversation with myself and others, if it was really 'better'. It really isn't in a lot of ways. It is functional, but it does have fairly large drawbacks. I can't really notice that many upsides to the front selectable over the front auto honestly. The next project I build will be automatic front again. If the LX45 wasn't full-time 4wd, I would seriously consider changing the front to an automatic locker.