Open Differentials vs. Traction Control vs. Lockers

[Metcalf]

Its pretty simple logic, that you seem to ignore. Perhaps as all you seem to want to do is argue for the sake of argument?
You certainly seem to be stuck in a one-sided ******** swinging contest. Maybe consider dropping the attitude and considering other perspectives....

A locked front when turned forces one of the tires to slip as one of the tires cannot match road speed.
An open diff on the other hand can match road speed, and limit slip better.

I prefer to have the ability to TURN, thank you very much.
And that requires the steer axle tires to match the road speed and retain grip.

Mobbing thru deep mud/snow is a completely different discussion, FYI, as we are talking about retaining grip, not slinging earth to find grip.

Me? I'm not the one obsessing about glare ice conditions. I'm not stuck on anything. I have actually personally tried many different combos. I continue to test all the different combos I can find to try and make better ones. I've said it more than once, if open/open is enough for you by all means run that. I am trying to learn things and pass on what I have found in my testing.

I own both the combos we are talking about. Don't you find it strange that I actually prefer auto front and selectable rear over over my other vehicle that is selectable/seletectable? Why would I do that unless the automatic front locker had some pretty clear bonuses in a lot of different situations. Shouldn't my selectable/selectable vehicle be better. Shouldn't I think it is the clear winner based on what everyone is saying? I own one, why wouldn't I like it?

An automatic locker, does have the ability to differentiate tire speed ( that is the 'automatic' part). It actually works rather well once the rear axle isn't trying to push over it. The common mistake people make, is grouping the behavior of one bad system and making blanket statements about how all systems are bad. I've said it more than once, I'm not a fan of automatic or spool rear axles.

I am trying to evaluate the overall performance of the vehicle in many different off-road situations where open/open is not enough , not just one single situation like a glare ice situation. If all I needed to do was drive around in the winter on ice, I wouldn't need locking differentials at all. In a properly setup vehicle I find myself rarely even needing 4wd. I just toggle in 4wd as needed, which is honestly more about dealing with other people on the road. You don't see the need for many people running around in little AWD cars and SUVs to have lockers. If you don't need more off-road performance just save your money.

What I have been saying for many pages now. When you NEED 3WD ( more than open/open ), there are some very real advantages to running an automatic front locker over a selectable front locker in those situations. I have also mentioned more than once now, that perhaps we should be evaluating what locker we use 1st in those 3wd situations, if someone insists on running selectable/selectable.

 

[Metcalf]

When you only have glare ice, switch back to 2wd. The front hubs unlock, and the front locker disappears.

You don't need 4wd to keep up with a Honda Odessy minivan. That's sad. That's really sad. Hardpacked icey sleet nonsense that I drove through perfectly fine, with a POS 1993 Mercury Topaz. That I bought for a sack of tacos, when I was 15.

Slip sliding on the freeway? That's just plain too much throttle or speed. Don't blame lockers for operator error or poor tire choices. The only reason I use 4wd above 35mph is to smooth out a bumpy dirt road. Unpowered tires have more side bite than driven tires. All you need to maintain hwy speed is light throttle and one driven wheel.

If you really want to use 4wd on ice, at speed, then a selectable front is best. But it won't match an auto up front off road, or be as reliable. That's the trade off.

I will go so far as to say that an automatic front locker disappears completely as soon as you disconnect power to the front axle. Locking hubs really don't seem to make any difference in the transparency of the locker. They do save some wear and tear on the front axle in general which is nice. They also allow you to isolate the front axle if something is broken which is a bonus.

I agree completely about the 'icy road' thing. I've driven for decades without needing 4wd all the time. I toggle it in and out for the rare bad situation. I don't notice the front automatic locker at all when doing this. My new LX45 with the full time LT230 transfer case is actually pretty annoying when it is open/open/open 4wd. You don't really know which wheel is going to slip and when. It is very unpredictable that way when pushed. It also understeers more than I would like in AWD. I have honestly considered coverting the transfer case to a part time unit to replace the center diff lock. At that point I would really consider swapping out the front selectable locker for an automatic locker, but that would also require a front housing change with the E-locker front sadly. Overall I still like the truck and all, but it isn't perfect at all. The center diff might allow some interesting things to happen off-road though, so I will continue to test things.

On winter roads I change tire pressure just like I do for off-road. Airing down makes a huge difference in the predictability and capability of any vehicle on winter roads. I've done this for decades in anything from fwd cars to my 40" tires. This is a major factor in why I think I can get away with far less 4wd use than some people.

 

[MOguy]

When you only have glare ice, switch back to 2wdk. The front hubs unlock, and the front locker disappears.

You don't need 4wd to keep up with a Honda Odessy minivan. That's sad. That's really sad. Hardpacked icey sleet nonsense that I drove through perfectly fine, with a POS 1993 Mercury Topaz. That I bought for a sack of tacos, when I was 15.

Slip sliding on the freeway? That's just plain too much throttle or speed. Don't blame lockers for operator error or poor tire choices. The only reason I use 4wd above 35mph is to smooth out a bumpy dirt road. Unpowered tires have more side bite than driven tires. All you need to maintain hwy speed is light throttle and one driven wheel.

If you really want to use 4wd on ice, at speed, then a selectable front is best. But it won't match an auto up front off road, or be as reliable. That's the trade off.

I don't have hubs to unlock and front wheel drive does MUCH better than rear wheel for icy roads.

Ice Ice baby, the icy road situation is more common than snow in my area. Plus snow is easier to drive-In.

 

[IdaSHO]

Yep, FWD is much safer than RWD on ice and snow, 'cause the rear end never passes you

They still go into the ditch though as a FWD will push in low traction situations.

They just go nose-in, in stead of rear-in

 

[Metcalf]

Yep, FWD is much safer than RWD on ice and snow, 'cause the rear end never passes you

They still go into the ditch though as a FWD will push in low traction situations.

They just go nose-in, in stead of rear-in

That is called too much momentum. It doesnt really matter what kind of differential you have if you can't drive.

 

[Metcalf]

I don't have hubs to unlock and front wheel drive does MUCH better than rear wheel for icy roads.

Ice Ice baby, the icy road situation is more common than snow in my area. Plus snow is easier to drive-In.

Yes. You must live in the only area in the entire world that gets icy roads.

 

[MOguy]

Yes. You must live in the only area in the entire world that gets icy roads.

Maybe not the only place that gets icy roads but it seems the only place where people don't drive with front auto lockers and rear selestables.

 

[Metcalf]

Maybe not the only place that gets icy roads but it seems the only place where people don't drive with front auto lockers and rear selestables.

Most people don't even know what a locking differential is. I can't help it if people don't want to learn something new.

 

[MOguy]

I can't help it if people don't want to learn something new.

Probably not.

 

[IdaSHO]

That is called too much momentum. It doesnt really matter what kind of differential you have if you can't drive.

That's exactly my point you nut.

MOST people do not know how to drive.

Yet you still preach that a front auto-locker is the best option.

For most a front locker is a terrible idea. A front auto-locker is even worse.

 

[Metcalf]

That's exactly my point you nut.

MOST people do not know how to drive.

Yet you still preach that a front auto-locker is the best option.

For most a front locker is a terrible idea. A front auto-locker is even worse.

Ohhhhhhh......so we should build our vehicles for the lowest common denominator just in case? Got it. That makes perfect sense.
Maybe you should just buy what you need off the dealer lot. That sounds pretty safe for you.

I'm interested in discovering and passing on knowledge in this sport, that can be anything from airing down, to winch use, to suspension geometry, to why certain lockers work the way they do. We don't learn anything new trying the same thing over and over again.

 

[Buliwyf]

I don't let other people wheel my truck. Problem solved. I don't care about how num num's from SC drive when it's icy outside.

I think you're way overestimating what a good front autolocker does in a fullsize truck. It's hardly noticeable in snow. Maybe some more wheel feedback under power. It's not hard to get used to.

 

[IdaSHO]

Front lockers have their place, but don't pretend a front locker + open rear is the best option, cause it isnt.

I'm interested in discovering and passing on knowledge in this sport, that can be anything from airing down, to winch use, to suspension geometry, to why certain lockers work the way they do. We don't learn anything new trying the same thing over and over again.

Sure glad we all have you.

I'm sure you alone will reinvent how physics works, therefore redefining OEM offerings

When an OEM outfits a front locker on a mass produced vehicle with an open rear diff, be sure to let me know.

If you want better odds, just name one vehicle with OEM lockers that allows you to lock just the front.

 

[MOguy]

here is a video of a guy driving a truck with automatic front lockers, and open rear, on the icy Road, just watch it and see what happens. at the very beginning of the video he tries to turn right but he can't and ends up going down the hill.

 

[Metcalf]

here is a video of a guy driving a truck with automatic front lockers, and open rear, on the icy Road, just watch it and see what happens. at the very beginning of the video he tries to turn right but he can't and ends up going down the hill.

Ha. That was good for a laugh at least.