Open Differentials vs. Traction Control vs. Lockers

[Metcalf]

I don't have much to add that others haven't already said but will just clarify....any "icy" road you can take a rig like that on, with those tires, doesn't qualify as "icy" in my world. I'm sure that thing does great in fresh hardpack or deep packed / loose snow, but the ice over snow base we get here, with our hills, leaves any rig without snow tires on the side of the road or in the garage, particularly short wheelbase jeeps with wide mud tires. You'd have a fighting chance with a pair of all-terrains, but even those, when it gets bad, are a liability....nevermind all that WITH a locker.

Glad it works for ya, seems like it does, I'm done, over and out.....

Those magical icy roads that only exist where you are....got it....

It does work for me. I've driven my old flat fender on LOTS of icy, snowy, winter roads. It's actually VERY fun in those conditions.
I routinely drive it around on the worst of the worst days just for fun to pull people out of the ditch.
I don't know how to quantify things any more. Colorado gets PLENTY of icy roads and snow.

My new truck works good too. It has even larger 'mud' tires. I just got done driving it through a monster winter here in Colorado as my primary daily driver.
I pulled out my fair share of people this year.....those with snow tires, those without, those with 4wd, etc.



This guy was sure happy I did when he ditched his car. The roads where pretty darn slick that day. There where people off the road everywhere.
I also live in the mountains at 7000ft.....not just flat land, there are PLENTY of hills around here.

I don't know what to tell ya.....works for me.....

 

[Metcalf]

Average of 3'', to max 20" per year isn't exactly the ''snow belt''. I get 24" in one weekend, 4 wheel drifting every wide turn.

I suppose people with a lack of snow experience should stick with open diffs on the street. Nobody is arguing against snow, or studded tires. Except you do have to balence that even. True snowtires are useless in mud, and some patterns aren't so hot in heavy rain. Big long fullsize? I'd prefer studded hybrids. Although Mastercraft makes a studdable MT now.

Preach! It is about balance. We get 4 seasons here, I want the best all-around off-road vehicle I can get.

I would love to have a dedicated set of snow tires, but in the 25 years I have been driving in snow country I haven't REALLY needed them. It would be a fun experiment, or a little extra insurance, but changing air pressure seems to work fine for me. I agree there could be conditions where studs/chains would be 'better', but I haven't exactly been held back without them, lockers or not. I have gone down to low single digit air pressure in a few cases when trying to do something really stupid.

This concept is interesting.

Grip Studs Screw In Tire Studs

For control, efficiency, safety and just plain fun, dominate your terrain with tough, dependable Grip Studs®. These wide–auger traction studs have holding power like no other screw–in tire stud. Grip Studs® tungsten-carbide construction, patented design and easy installation put them in a class...

www.gripstuds.com

If someone did want to build a dedicated set of ice/snow tires with large flotation tires, this is what I would start with. The ability to air down the tires AND have as many studs as I wanted is pretty interesting. I hate tire chains and this would be an interesting alternative to that.

 

[Buliwyf]

See, I'd call the above pic ''high grip''. Matte finish, packed snow means ''hammer down'' to me. Very easy to drive on. 1wd is fine for that, so an aggressive front diff is fine.

When that melts a bit and starts to shine, is tricky.

 

[Metcalf]

See, I'd call the above pic ''high grip''. Matte finish, packed snow means ''hammer down'' to me. Very easy to drive on. 1wd is fine for that, so an aggressive front diff is fine.

When that melts a bit and starts to shine, is tricky.

Oh no, it wasn't that at all. This was the 'the road was a little warm during the day, then it started snow/raining, it melted on the road, and then froze into a solid layer of ice when the sun went down under the continuing snow fall' kind of ice. This was NOT a hammer down road surface. There where plenty of vehicles off the road....cars, suvs, snow tires, 4wd, etc. It was bad.
In this pic we are basically on the side of the road nearly in the ditch. The middle of the road was play ice hockey slick.

I actually had to use all 3 lockers ( front, center, and rear ) to pop this car out of the ditch.
I had to pull him out at a 45 degree angle with a very short strap because I didn't have much room to work at all.
Fun times.

 

[nickw]

See, I'd call the above pic ''high grip''. Matte finish, packed snow means ''hammer down'' to me. Very easy to drive on. 1wd is fine for that, so an aggressive front diff is fine.

When that melts a bit and starts to shine, is tricky.

Agreed....

 

[Metcalf]

Agreed....

Sure. That must have been why there where people falling off the road everywhere with just about every combo of drive/tire possible.
Those people must just like giving tow truck drivers money and trashing their vehicles for no real reason.

 

[Buliwyf]

Oh, that's just the side of the road.

Shiny is good for studded tires around here.

 

[Metcalf]

Oh, that's just the side of the road.

Shiny is good for studded tires around here.

That I can agree with. There is no doubt that studs are 'better' for very bad ice conditions.
I just haven't had enough of those conditions, in all my years, to warrant a dedicated set of studded snow tires on one of my 4wd vehicles.
The same goes for chains. When conditions get THAT bad ( which is VERY rare ), I just air down the tires.

Honestly, the biggest push for some kind of studded tire for me would be certain conditions when deep snow wheeling.
Basically, if you get a vehicle to start floating properly you can get snow conditions where a stud would help break through a glaze/crust when needed.
You can get around most of this with small air pressure adjustments to help change the 'crust' that is forming under the tire.
Sometimes just 1-2psi either direction can really help.

If someone lives somewhere where they have to drive around on a ice rink all day every day, by all means I would suggest some studs.

 

[Buliwyf]

The studs shouldn't break anything anymore.

They don't even reduce wet grip anymore, since most tires only have a few studs. Not the hundreds they used to. It's just value added, if you have dedicated snow tires. Which I'm considering again. But Cooper Stt's work fine for me, since traffic really limits my speed to something mundane.

 

[Metcalf]

The studs shouldn't break anything anymore.

They don't even reduce wet grip anymore, since most tires only have a few studs. Not the hundreds they used to. It's just value added, if you have dedicated snow tires. Which I'm considering again. But Cooper Stt's work fine for me, since traffic really limits my speed to something mundane.

I kinda want them to be able to break the crust/glaze in certain situations when snow wheeling. That would be the only real reason I would think about running them.
The 'grip-stud' option I posted earlier would be what I would try.

Yeah, I have never really 'needed' studs on a 4wd. They would be nice on a rare day for a little extra margin, but air pressure seems to do the same thing for me without having to worry about multiple sets of tires.

 

[Metcalf]

Front lockers have their place, but don't pretend a front locker + open rear is the best option, cause it isnt.

This is worth talking about.

If you could only have ONE locker, which end axle would you stick it in?

Personally, I would put it in the FRONT axle ( and I would honestly choose an automatic locker in most every case, but I think that would be pretty clear by now )

Anyone want to talk about the ups and downs about which axle is better and why? Or do we just want to drone on about super slick icy roads for a few more pages?

 

[Buliwyf]

Front on flat-ish trails. Rear on trails with lots of climbing.

Rear on trucks first, front on Jeeps. Depending on axle quality.

One without the other is blasphemy now. They work best together.

 

[Metcalf]

Front on flat-ish trails. Rear on trails with lots of climbing.

Rear on trucks first, front on Jeeps. Depending on axle quality.

One without the other is blasphemy now. They work best together.

One thing I have noticed is that when climbing (with weight transfer to the rear), I need a rear locker less. The rear tires seems to stay planted pretty well. The front on the other hand, because of weight transfer, will typically be the first to lift a tire on steep climbs. If the front is light and lifting a tire, I want the locker in the front axle first. I have seen some vehicles that are SO front bias and long wheelbase they will lift a rear tire first.....long trucks, IFS vehicles like Tacomas, etc. The other thing to note with a rear only locker is that you get a lot more 'push' and front wheel lift. As wheelbase gets shorter I like running the front locker only more and more. As long as the rear tires stay planed, the traction is the same. It just feels less quirky to me. I also find that with the front locker only I get a lot less 'push' when trying to manouver the vehicle when climbing. The front tires seem to stay on their line much better.

Axles strength. I use to think it was going to be a big deal running the front locker more than the rear locker with a normal front axle. I just haven't been able to make anything bad happen. My old flat fender is just a Dana 30 front with 5.38s, a Yukon Spartan automatic lunchbox locker, and some alloy shafts with the bigger 297/760 joints. I would rather have a Dana 44 for a little more insurance, but even with the big heavy wide sticky 35" KX BFGs on steel beadlocks it hasn't been an issue.

Yes, it is true that two lockers will get you further, I don't think it is an even split between the front and rear axle. I RARELY have to use my rear locker. I don't know if it is just driving style or the vehicles, but I can do the majority of very difficult trails with only VERY short burst of rear locker. I see a lot more people having no front locker issues vs no rear locker issues generally. With the addition of a rear left/right cutting brake, I think rear locker use would be almost nill. I actually dislike have most vehicles feel with both lockers engaged. They feel WAY too bound up to do much of anything other than go in a straight line. The only time I really seem to NEED both lockers is when trying to shoot a big steep climb.

 

[MOguy]

Those magical icy roads that only exist where you are....got it....

It does work for me. I've driven my old flat fender on LOTS of icy, snowy, winter roads. It's actually VERY fun in those conditions.
I routinely drive it around on the worst of the worst days just for fun to pull people out of the ditch.
I don't know how to quantify things any more. Colorado gets PLENTY of icy roads and snow.

My new truck works good too. It has even larger 'mud' tires. I just got done driving it through a monster winter here in Colorado as my primary daily driver.
I pulled out my fair share of people this year.....those with snow tires, those without, those with 4wd, etc.



This guy was sure happy I did when he ditched his car. The roads where pretty darn slick that day. There where people off the road everywhere.
I also live in the mountains at 7000ft.....not just flat land, there are PLENTY of hills around here.

I don't know what to tell ya.....works for me.....

That is not what I am talking about. This is an icy road.

 

[Metcalf]

That is not what I am talking about. This is an icy road.

And?

We should design vehicles for that ONE condition?
I've been on roads so slick that if you stopped the WIND moved the vehicle sideways....no hill needed.
It literally required driving at an angle to the road to go 'straight'. Good times.
I would still go into those kind of road conditions with an automatic front locker and selectable rear locker without ANY worry on my part.

If you think you are going to get further up the road with NO lockers, you are kidding yourself ( that is like saying 2wd is better than 4wd )
Yes, it MIGHT require the driver to have half a brain and some experience.
If you want to stay in one spot and not slide anywhere, by all means use no-wheel drive, because that is where your argument basically ends up.

I've said it before, if icy roads are THAT big of a worry for you run whatever you want.
Get a set of studded tires or chains if you live in fear of icy roads.

I've been doing this a pretty long time, I am trying to build the best ALL AROUND vehicles I can.