Jwestpro
Explorer
My first Discovery I is white and I have always loved the no nonsense/utility of that color, as well as it being so easy to bring back to life after 10 yrs of sun and grime.
Overland Journal: G-Wagen
- Thread starter Scott Brady
- Start date
My first Discovery I is white and I have always loved the no nonsense/utility of that color, as well as it being so easy to bring back to life after 10 yrs of sun and grime.
zimm
Expedition Leader
Now how cool would this be?
currently for sale at Europa.
that g is 85g. stacked against an ER jeep, thats a bargain. MB quality at 60% the price. i could be seen in that with a grin.
Outback
Explorer
Congrats!
It'll be nice to see a properly outfitted (and used) G-Wagen ... every copy you see here in Chandler is driven by a soccer mom or athlete and rollin' on 24s with high-performance street tires, lots 'o chrome and often slammed. The ultimate mall crawler. Never understood that. :-/
These are fairly representative ... the silver with 24s and the black one with 27s! sigh.
24"s? :Wow1:
:yikes: Unbelievable!BlueBomber
Adventurer
Man, they must be broke. Their rims dont even spin! YOU GOTTA HAVE DA SPINNAHS!!!!!
Scott Brady
Founder
I am currently researching what is required to remove the factory alarm system from the 463. While it has been reliable, I hate alarm systems, especially ones with immobilizers. And in typical Teutonic fashion, there is no easy way to stop using the alarm. The primary limiter being the complete lack of a key hole on the drivers side door :Wow1:
Has anyone been able to successfully remove the alarm, but retain central locking? Or is there a way to install a keyed door handle on the drivers side?
Overall, my build of the G-Wagen has been slow. We did install one of Karl's excellent wheel cover storage kits.
More on that soon.
Has anyone been able to successfully remove the alarm, but retain central locking? Or is there a way to install a keyed door handle on the drivers side?
Overall, my build of the G-Wagen has been slow. We did install one of Karl's excellent wheel cover storage kits.
More on that soon.
Scott Brady
Founder
Testing:
Forgive the point and shoot quality here.
I had a few hours on Sunday to begin testing the G on our local test track. The trail is moderate, but has steep hills and many cross-axle obstacles to guage stability, traction, articulation, locking differential activation, etc.
Front tire is just in the air, due to the angle of climb, which has shift the weight rearward. Center locker on, then rear locker on - easy.
There is no question the G has less articulation than the Discovery I, but feels stable regardless, most certainly aided by the longer wheelbase and low center of gravity. Has anyone removed the front anti-swaybar, and to what effect? The anti-swaybar is low and vulnerable anyway, and attaches to the control arms.
Even with the completely stock suspension, head toss is minimal and damping is fine. It does lose composure pretty quickly at speed, but no worse than the Discovery (but much worse than the Tacoma with all the go-fast suspension parts). The G does have an almost intangible ride quality, probably the combination of low COG, best-in-class seats and suspension design. It does lift a wheel easily compared to a Land Rover, but seems complete composed when doing it. I would say the suspension travel is similar to an 80 series TLC.
I like the locker activation, and convenience of the switches on the dash. Simple and fast activating, somewhere between the ARB (fastest) and the Toyota (slowest).
It has been an interesting couple months, having driven the Defender, Discovery 5-speed, J8 Diesel, Unlimited JK Rubicon and the G-Klass interchangeably. The G feels the most solid, in nearly every way. Tight, even with over 100,000 miles on it. Excellent ergonomics and the best seats of any SUV in the segment, by a wide margin. The lockers, ground clearance, factory 32" tires, approach and departure angles allow the G-wagen to do silly stuff on the trail. I nearly forget to air down (and often don't), as it never seems to need the traction and the ride is so good.
I still prefer driving the Discovery, mostly because it is more difficult (I really need to pay attention to line, tire placement, airing down, etc on the trail above), with a shorter WB, open diffs (for now), manual transmission, etc. The Disco has a better driving position, and a brighter cab. The Jeep is just unstoppable, but has much larger tires, better articulation and much lower gearing. The Defender has the fun-factor nailed, and does pretty well on the trail, though I am very cautious with it. It has F/R air lockers, so traction is not a problem, though gearing is. At low RPMs, that little diesel just does not have enough torque for such a heavy truck, and even with the 3.31:1 low range, the 3.54 axles are too high for the trail, but just right for the road. Switching to 4.10 would be great on the trail, but kill mileage and cruising on the highway - tough spot.
In reality, any serious modifications to the G will just ruin it. It is perfect, as is, for what we need it to do. I am just going to address a few minor things, add some rocker panel protection and a factory rear bumper (off of the 460 model). I might test it with the swaybar off.
Forgive the point and shoot quality here.
I had a few hours on Sunday to begin testing the G on our local test track. The trail is moderate, but has steep hills and many cross-axle obstacles to guage stability, traction, articulation, locking differential activation, etc.
Front tire is just in the air, due to the angle of climb, which has shift the weight rearward. Center locker on, then rear locker on - easy.
There is no question the G has less articulation than the Discovery I, but feels stable regardless, most certainly aided by the longer wheelbase and low center of gravity. Has anyone removed the front anti-swaybar, and to what effect? The anti-swaybar is low and vulnerable anyway, and attaches to the control arms.
Even with the completely stock suspension, head toss is minimal and damping is fine. It does lose composure pretty quickly at speed, but no worse than the Discovery (but much worse than the Tacoma with all the go-fast suspension parts). The G does have an almost intangible ride quality, probably the combination of low COG, best-in-class seats and suspension design. It does lift a wheel easily compared to a Land Rover, but seems complete composed when doing it. I would say the suspension travel is similar to an 80 series TLC.
I like the locker activation, and convenience of the switches on the dash. Simple and fast activating, somewhere between the ARB (fastest) and the Toyota (slowest).
It has been an interesting couple months, having driven the Defender, Discovery 5-speed, J8 Diesel, Unlimited JK Rubicon and the G-Klass interchangeably. The G feels the most solid, in nearly every way. Tight, even with over 100,000 miles on it. Excellent ergonomics and the best seats of any SUV in the segment, by a wide margin. The lockers, ground clearance, factory 32" tires, approach and departure angles allow the G-wagen to do silly stuff on the trail. I nearly forget to air down (and often don't), as it never seems to need the traction and the ride is so good.
I still prefer driving the Discovery, mostly because it is more difficult (I really need to pay attention to line, tire placement, airing down, etc on the trail above), with a shorter WB, open diffs (for now), manual transmission, etc. The Disco has a better driving position, and a brighter cab. The Jeep is just unstoppable, but has much larger tires, better articulation and much lower gearing. The Defender has the fun-factor nailed, and does pretty well on the trail, though I am very cautious with it. It has F/R air lockers, so traction is not a problem, though gearing is. At low RPMs, that little diesel just does not have enough torque for such a heavy truck, and even with the 3.31:1 low range, the 3.54 axles are too high for the trail, but just right for the road. Switching to 4.10 would be great on the trail, but kill mileage and cruising on the highway - tough spot.
In reality, any serious modifications to the G will just ruin it. It is perfect, as is, for what we need it to do. I am just going to address a few minor things, add some rocker panel protection and a factory rear bumper (off of the 460 model). I might test it with the swaybar off.
Last edited:
G-force
Adventurer
If you take away the front swaybar, you will have quite a bit more flex.
But keep in mind that turning sharp corners becomes a little woobly. Espessially "turn in" lacks the response and control, that you are familiar with, in a G.
I olso loosen the big nut, at the end of the swaybars, when i go offroading. Just a turn or two, to give some room in the bushings. They are nylock`s, so there is no danger that they will come all off. This combined with shocks with longer travel, 40 mm spring lift and longer brake hoses (important!!) gives me plenty of flex for offroad driving. Just make sure to tighten the nuts, as you go "on road" again.
But keep in mind that turning sharp corners becomes a little woobly. Espessially "turn in" lacks the response and control, that you are familiar with, in a G.
I olso loosen the big nut, at the end of the swaybars, when i go offroading. Just a turn or two, to give some room in the bushings. They are nylock`s, so there is no danger that they will come all off. This combined with shocks with longer travel, 40 mm spring lift and longer brake hoses (important!!) gives me plenty of flex for offroad driving. Just make sure to tighten the nuts, as you go "on road" again.
39Ronin
Adventurer
Some food for thought from the members at Pointed Three:
http://pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=5267&posts=13&highlight=remove anti sway bar&highlightmode=1#M97748
http://pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=5267&posts=13&highlight=remove anti sway bar&highlightmode=1#M97748
michaelgroves
Explorer
Interesting viewpoints on that forum, but I couldn't agree with a lot of what was being said, such as:
I could see an argument that removing the anti-swaybars might be a bad trade-off in a G-wagen. But quick disconnects don't seem to have any significant disadvantage. Why would they make you more prone to rolling, off-road? And as for anti-sway bar disconnects being for people without lockers or driving skills, that's just plain nonsense! There's an interesting discussion to be had over diff-locks versus good articulation, but having both is clearly better than having either one.
As for anti-sway bars that allow increased travel, well, that's a compromise too. Good road manners and lots of wheel travel are mutually at odds. Different anti-sway bars are not a silver bullet (else I suspect the Merc/Puch engineers would have thought of it), they are just at a different point on the trade-off.
I could see an argument that removing the anti-swaybars might be a bad trade-off in a G-wagen. But quick disconnects don't seem to have any significant disadvantage. Why would they make you more prone to rolling, off-road? And as for anti-sway bar disconnects being for people without lockers or driving skills, that's just plain nonsense! There's an interesting discussion to be had over diff-locks versus good articulation, but having both is clearly better than having either one.
As for anti-sway bars that allow increased travel, well, that's a compromise too. Good road manners and lots of wheel travel are mutually at odds. Different anti-sway bars are not a silver bullet (else I suspect the Merc/Puch engineers would have thought of it), they are just at a different point on the trade-off.
39Ronin
Adventurer
Good points, I however don't have the experience of driving with the swaybar off or disconnected so I hesitate to enter that debate. The man you qouted is a professional off raod instructor and has a background in teaching the military and private sector, I'm not siding with him as I like to come to my own conclusions but I also realize he has 100 times the experience of that I have or most of us have offroading. His website is here:
http://www.4x4abc.com/
michaelgroves
Explorer
Yes, I'm well aware of Harald's pedigree
But he has been a zealous fan of the G-wagen from very early days, when axle diff-locks were much rarer than they are now, and the G-wagen's party-piece! Consequently, I believe he still under-states the importance of good axle articulation (the G-wagen's relative weak point), relative to locking diffs (a strong point of the G). Keeping as many wheels in contact with the ground as possible is a prime way of getting better traction (and being kind to the drivetrain), with or without differential locks!
But he has been a zealous fan of the G-wagen from very early days, when axle diff-locks were much rarer than they are now, and the G-wagen's party-piece! Consequently, I believe he still under-states the importance of good axle articulation (the G-wagen's relative weak point), relative to locking diffs (a strong point of the G). Keeping as many wheels in contact with the ground as possible is a prime way of getting better traction (and being kind to the drivetrain), with or without differential locks!
Last edited:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3734004363281948019
This vehicle is basically a tubular chassis G460 body with Hanomag IFS in front and MB 307d diff in rear, has lockers front and rear and VG10 T case. I own a G300 as well as the Gurkha, I find the Gurkha doing better off road due to the tubular chassis and IFS.
This vehicle is basically a tubular chassis G460 body with Hanomag IFS in front and MB 307d diff in rear, has lockers front and rear and VG10 T case. I own a G300 as well as the Gurkha, I find the Gurkha doing better off road due to the tubular chassis and IFS.
Scott Brady
Founder
Crossed-axle articulation (within reason) is a critical component of traction and vehicle stability off-highway. The function/benefit of an anti-swaybar is only realized at speed.
A vehicle with limited articulation (think X5 as an extreme example) will be inherently less stable and more likely to lose control or roll on the trail, for the specific reason that once an axle has reached its travel limit, that corner will unload, then lift, causing the vehicle to shift weight and stability without the benefit of damping. The G-Wagen is inherently less stable than a Land Rover for this reason. Once at the limits of articulation travel, the vehicle lacks the damping effect of shock stroke and the stabilizing and ground pressure effect of sprung axle movement.
Axle differential locks are the Gs greatest strength. Its lack of articulation is its greatest weakness.
This is not to say that axle articulation is the ultimate attribute, it is just a factor, but one that must be understood and capitalized on. There are limits to the positive effects of axle articulation, as ground pressure is key to traction and uncoupled-excessive droop will create other problems with spring retention, axle-steer, etc.
It is all a balance. . .
I am going to pull the swaybar off, and report. . .
I have also researched the fitment of a Currie Anti-Rock, which looks like it could work.
A vehicle with limited articulation (think X5 as an extreme example) will be inherently less stable and more likely to lose control or roll on the trail, for the specific reason that once an axle has reached its travel limit, that corner will unload, then lift, causing the vehicle to shift weight and stability without the benefit of damping. The G-Wagen is inherently less stable than a Land Rover for this reason. Once at the limits of articulation travel, the vehicle lacks the damping effect of shock stroke and the stabilizing and ground pressure effect of sprung axle movement.
Axle differential locks are the Gs greatest strength. Its lack of articulation is its greatest weakness.
This is not to say that axle articulation is the ultimate attribute, it is just a factor, but one that must be understood and capitalized on. There are limits to the positive effects of axle articulation, as ground pressure is key to traction and uncoupled-excessive droop will create other problems with spring retention, axle-steer, etc.
It is all a balance. . .
I am going to pull the swaybar off, and report. . .
I have also researched the fitment of a Currie Anti-Rock, which looks like it could work.
Last edited:
Root Moose
Expedition Leader
Great stuff! I'm looking forward to comparison photos.