Overland Journal "The Ultimate Overlander" Article

greynolds

Observer
It's possible this may be better placed in a more general forum, but since I own a G550, I figured I'd post my thoughts here...

I just finished reading the subject article in the Summer 2015 issue of Overland Journal. Overall, I thought it was a fairly well done and balanced article and have no dispute with their Editor's Choice. But the article left me with a few questions and comments.

First, how is it that the G-Wagen has around 700 lbs more payload capacity than the Toyota and the second best cargo volume in the test, but received the same score as the Toyota for capacity? Based on their description, the capacity rating doesn't take other factors such as fuel capacity into account, so it would seem that the G-Wagen probably should have scored 7 (given that the highest score of 8 was given to the HD Land Rover Defender which has slightly higher numbers). That would have given the G-Wagen and Toyota the same overall score, but the Toyota should probably still win in reliability and global service network to edge out the Editor's choice anyway.

Second, though it would be different from how they decided to do their article, it would be interesting to see similar tests broken up by region comparing vehicles that can be purchased new in each region. As good as the 70 series Toyota is, I don't believe they were ever brought into the USA, so we are limited to 25 year old (or older) examples here. The situation is similar with Land Rover - even though they did bring some Defenders over in the mid 90's, there aren't many of them and they're all around 20 years old at this point. If someone wants to purchase something new and be able to keep it where they live, it isn't overly useful to know about options that are only available new in other parts of the world. For the USA, this would most likely mean comparing the MB G550/G63 to the Land Rover LR4, Toyota Land Cruiser 200 series, Infinity QX80 (essentially a Nissan Patrol with fancy interior), Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, etc.

Finally, I think it would also be interesting to do an article or series of articles that explain the differences between some of the models within a brand. Such as how exactly do the MB W463 and W461 differ other than one having a more luxurious interior (would a current G550 be just as good for the purpose as a W461 if one is willing to spend more than $100k on a vehicle and really put it to use)? How does the Nissan Patrol they reviewed differ from the Infinity QX80? What are the differences between a USA market Land Cruiser 200 series and the stripped down version available in other parts of the world? For that matter, what are the underlying differences between a 70 series and 200 series Land Cruiser?

Either way, I enjoyed the article and the fact that it generated some thoughts probably isn't a bad thing. I suspect they'll get some interesting messages from people who feel "their" brand should have won. :)
 
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LocoCoyote

World Citizen
:) This is, of course, one of those discussions that will never end. So much of it is subjective and not every choice fits for everyone..... but it is fun to discuss!

"I think it would also be interesting to do an article or series of articles that explain the differences between some of the models within a brand. Such as how exactly do the MB W463 and W461 differ other than one having a more luxurious interior (would a current G550 be just as good for the purpose as a W461 if one is willing to spend more than $100k on a vehicle and really put it to use)? "

Looking at your above quote regarding the 463 vs 461 models...... I agree that this would be a very nice topic to explore. But to address the point specifically: ANY G is a great choice; no disagreement from me. But the 461 models are much more durable and solid than the 463 models. 461s are overbuilt to a point where it is almost scary. Here is a link to a somewhat dated YouTube video where folks took a bunch of Gs (most were showroom stock) down the Canning Stock Road in Australia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fNwKYPX5ws

as you can see, the route ate up the shocks and suspension on most of the vehicles...the only one to survive without issue....the 461 G Professional. Of course these guys seem to be driving like idiots, but that is beside the point.
 

thebigblue

Adventurer
I would also like to know the real differences between the 461 and 463, mechanical I presume that they are more or less the same. The 463 runs more luxury as electrical seats, but don´t the newer 461 rely on solenoids as the 463´s...

The AUS trip only shows that the shock-absorbers on the 463 are more for on-road use than corrugations. I have run my W463 G400 cdi in the Atlas mountains, the Western Sahara, Iceland, and the Pyrenees. Only issues was cracked rear-springs, a commonly know weakness on the 463.
 

Scott Brady

Founder
Either way, I enjoyed the article and the fact that it generated some thoughts probably isn't a bad thing. I suspect they'll get some interesting messages from people who feel "their" brand should have won. :)

Thanks for the feedback. It was the most difficult article I have ever assembled, and took about five years of research (not full time of course) and testing.

Regarding the capacity question, the scale was not based on a constant, but on a curve, much like the other factors. The Defender had the best capacity overall, being a combination of the objective factors of volume and payload, combined with the subject factors of access, shape of the storage area, etc. The Defender had significantly better numbers, but the Toyota was closer to the G-Wagen on the curve, plus the added benefit of barn doors for access. Each scoring was a combination of attributes and specifications, all balanced by real-world experience in the field.

The more interesting result was my own personal preferences/bias, which I worked very hard to remove from the comparison. I drive a G-Wagen every day and love that truck. If I could pick any of those vehicles to personally drive around the world, I would take the Defender, and it would be a purely emotional choice.

However, the best way to describe the editor's choice is the vehicle I would buy for my SISTER to drive around the world. In that case, the Toyota is the clear winner- it is the best tool for the job of long-distance overland travel.

Fun stuff ;)
 

Scott Brady

Founder
I would also like to know the real differences between the 461 and 463, mechanical I presume that they are more or less the same. The 463 runs more luxury as electrical seats, but don´t the newer 461 rely on solenoids as the 463´s...

The AUS trip only shows that the shock-absorbers on the 463 are more for on-road use than corrugations. I have run my W463 G400 cdi in the Atlas mountains, the Western Sahara, Iceland, and the Pyrenees. Only issues was cracked rear-springs, a commonly know weakness on the 463.

The 461 benefits from increased payload and a more simple electronics package. The interior is also more durable and spartan. The big advantage of the 461 is the payload and systems simplicity.

If I was going to take a G-Wagen around the world, it would be the G350 463 with the turbo diesel. Love that model, and I don't need the payload of the 461.
 

swb

Observer
There have been a number of issues with the G350 motor, resulting in strandings in remote locations. Quite a few motors replaced at huge expense (to MB) and hassle (to the owner)
Not so with the simpler and non-adblue motor in the W461.
While the W461 has less creature comforts, these are easy enough to add with better aftermarket and rugged components.
Think Entdecker.
 

Scott Brady

Founder
There have been a number of issues with the G350 motor, resulting in strandings in remote locations. Quite a few motors replaced at huge expense (to MB) and hassle (to the owner)

That makes me sad. Love the G350 in concept.

In the end, it is the reliability failures of Mercedes over the past 10 years that cost it the Ultimate Overlander title. The G-Wagen is a far better vehicle (design and engineering) then the VDJ76, but reliability is king when traveling remotely.
 

greynolds

Observer
^ Yup. Getting stuck in the middle of nowhere due to reliability issues is not a desirable feature. My 2014 G550 has been excellent so far, but I've only had it just over a year and put ~18k miles on it so far. The only issues so far have been:

1) Random warning messages that various marker lights and turn signals aren't working for brief periods, which started shortly after I got it and happened just a few times over the first year. Several months ago, the passenger side daytime running light was down for the count with a hole that let water into it. After they replaced it, the warnings seem to have completely gone away. It looks like it may have had a small hole early on that let a little moisture in that caused the problems with the various lights. All in all, this was pretty minor and the dealer covered it under warranty.

2) Something in one of the hood latches squeaks when going over bumpy roads. I can reproduce it by pushing down on the brush guard and the noise goes away if I pop the hood. Again, pretty minor and something I'll have the dealer take care of. If it was out of warranty, I'd get off my butt and fix it myself :).

Compared to the 2014 Range Rover that I had for 6 months prior to trading it in for the G550, this is nothing. At delivery, the Range Rover had the following problems:

1) The hood wasn't latching properly. It took the dealer TWO attempts to fix it.
2) One of the speakers was blown.
3) The trim on the driver's door wasn't fastened well and squeaked any time I put my arm on the door rest.

There's no way the first 2 items should have passed quality control or the dealer pre-delivery checks.

After a month or 2, I had issues with the transmission shifter that were just absolutely stupid. The Range Rover (and some other Land Rover and Jag vehicles) use a shift knob that recesses into the center console when the engine is turned off and pops up when the engine is turned on. This servers absolutely no purpose other than to (theoretically) look cool. Of course, it's a big problem when it doesn't pop up when you turn the engine on because you can't shift the transmission. At first, mine would go up, go back down, and then go up and stay up when I turned the engine on. A few times, I wouldn't come up. Restarting the engine seemed to work, so I never got stranded anywhere, but I know of people who did. They ended up having to replace a fairly significant part to fix it and it turns out there was a bad batch of that part (or multiple bad batches...). Stupid, stupid design as it was a pure show-off sort of thing that had no useful purpose.

Having owned both the current Range Rover and current G550, I just don't get why people drool over the Range Rover so much. It's nice, but really doesn't differentiate itself like the G does and just doesn't have the character that the G does. When I had the Range Rover, nobody came up to me to comment. With the G, it happens fairly frequently and people want to know what the heck that Mercedes Jeep is. I've actually made a few new friends in the process just because the G turned out to be a conversation starter.

But regardless of what other people think about it, I absolutely love it so far.

I need to get around to posting pics of the cargo shelf I made. It's not as snazzy as some of the amazing projects other people have posted here, but it came out pretty well with original Mercedes carpet and L track rails and required no modifications to the vehicle, so it can be removed and the vehicle is back to stock.
 

swb

Observer
That makes me sad. Love the G350 in concept.

In the end, it is the reliability failures of Mercedes over the past 10 years that cost it the Ultimate Overlander title. The G-Wagen is a far better vehicle (design and engineering) then the VDJ76, but reliability is king when traveling remotely.

I would dispute this. I would score the W461 as the Ultimate Overlander, just not the W463. Hence why the W461 still exists. Its just unfortunate that it is not available in all markets.
You really do need the extra payload, fuel capacity and range (diesel of course for worldwide travel, not just in USA) You dont need luxury trimmings in dirty offroad environments, wasting space and the added electronic complexity of trivialities like electric headrests, illiminated door sills, etc, etc...(more stuff to go wrong) And for me personally I like to "experience" the remote locations, meaning not in a hurry, wimdows down (yes, getting dust and dirt inside -oh no!) hearing the sounds and smelling scenery. Not cucooned from the environmemt wrapped in quiet, smooth, clean, sterile luxury. Thats does not make for a fun memorable trip, IMHO.
 

Scott Brady

Founder
I would dispute this. I would score the W461 as the Ultimate Overlander, just not the W463. Hence why the W461 still exists.

The 461 was the model we tested for the article. It also suffers extensive reliability issues, including wiring harness failures, turbo failures, alternator failures, etc. Unfortunately, the 461 is not immune from the crop of recent Mercedes failings.
 

swb

Observer
Apologies. I was not aware of any issues with the W461. Its not yet available to Joe Public here yet so not many around, excluding the Australian Army.
 

Scott Brady

Founder
Apologies. I was not aware of any issues with the W461. Its not yet available to Joe Public here yet so not many around, excluding the Australian Army.

The Australian Army field reports were a big help in our reliability research. They had a gnarly alternator failure in the Simpson. Those trucks have dual alternators for the 12.24v circuits.
 

swb

Observer
Anyway, as much as I am a G-wagen nut (W460 with OM606 turbo, 722.6, custom storage, rooftop camper) I think these would be my ultimate expedition vehicles (worldwide trips) from one extreme to another:

For agility, particularly for shipping:
854.jpg


For comfort:
SM_SC_3.jpg
 

thairish

Observer
The Australian Army field reports were a big help in our reliability research. They had a gnarly alternator failure in the Simpson. Those trucks have dual alternators for the 12.24v circuits.

Good to know; however, please note that not all 461 Professional are 12.24v and have the dual alternators, which is mil-spec. That does add a level of complexity for sure.
 

otiswesty

Regular guy
They make this nice Fuso camper here in Bend Oregon now. It is an Australian company.

I have been all over the 463 and 461. They are essentially the same basic vehicle, just optioned differently. Personally, if cost was not an issue, the 463 seems like a much better choice for a number of reasons.
Both the 461 and 463 have electronic difflockers and transfer case control. However the 463 still has a naturally aspirated engine which despite the detuning of the 461 direct injection turbo diesel, is simpler and theoretically more reliable as a power plant. I drive a pre 2002 G500 in large part for the manual transfercase shifter and a simpler electronic system, the newer ones are can bus controlled. The current 461 is also electronically complex. Once you get past the cool 460 style dash, it becomes obvious looking at the touch screen controls that this G300cdi is not your old 300GD. A high comfort, low mileage 2008-2009 G320cdi can be had in Europe for way less than a new 461.
http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/d...00&makeModelVariant1.modelId=158&pageNumber=1

The zinger is spending an hour inside a 461 on a rough track. The high degree of road noise makes it a completely different driving experience more akin to one of my old VW Westfalias or a Defender. Not bad, but not as pleasant of an experience. That's not to say I wouldn't want a 461 if it was available stateside, but for a number of reasons I would prefer my $15,000 G500 with a couple of spare fuel cans.

I know we are talking about the ideal round the world car, but...
 

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