biotect
Designer
Hi Moe, LukeH, ntsqd,
Thanks for the responses; very informative.
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1. Moe:
This is a design "thesis project" that I will be working on, in earnest next fall, i.e. beginning in September. I've been anticipating a bit, trying to determine the engineering constraints. Please see my first post on page 33 of this thread, for a more thorough explanation.
The basic issue is this: from a purely design point of view, expedition motorhomes seem awfully space-wasteful. In the lingo of the wider RV industry, they are “non-integrated” designs in which a body is simply placed on a truck, whose cab remains separate. So the seating gets duplicated. This contrasts markedly with the most advanced European designs, for instance, Hymer motorhomes. In almost all Hymer RVs, the driver’s seat and passenger seat swivel 180 degrees, and do “double-duty” as dinette seating. Again, please see my post on page 33 for pictures.
I still have to research the design-history of this innovation, but I suspect that it began with the VW Westfalia "camper van", back in the 1960’s -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Westfalia_Campers . Almost all van-sized motorhomes employ double-duty swivel seats to save space, including “Sportsmobile”, which also makes vans that specifically target the expedition market – see http://www.sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html , http://www.sportsmobile.com/4_maxim07.html , http://www.sportsmobile.com/sections/4x4/maxim/maxim07_spread.jpg :
Now the interesting thing is that top-of-the-line Hymers are big. Maybe not as big as Class A American motorhomes, but certainly as large as the biggest expedition motorhomes. So if double-duty swivel seating seems worthwhile in a big Hymer, you’d think it would be worthwhile in a UniCat or ActionMobil, too?
As near as I can tell, the main thing that prevents this, is the need to fix cab and body separately, because the latter has to be mounted on a 3-point pivoting frame. Class A American motorhomes and Hymers can be fully integrated designs, it seems, because they don’t need 3-point pivoting frames. And they do not need 3-point pivoting frames, because “regular” RV’s typically do not experience the same stresses as expedition motorhomes.
However, I then came across the SX-45 brochure, and began wondering why this technology had not yet “migrated” over to UniCat or ActionMobil. As stated in the post just above, ActionMobil has already built at least one 8 x 8 expedition motorhome on a MAN KAT military chassis. So perhaps ActionMobil has good enough relations with MAN military, to be able to request a SX-45 chassis? Would it really cost that much more? The engineering has already been done, and perhaps all that MAN needs to do, is combine the SX-45 chassis with the same engine and drive train used by the 8 x 8 TGS – which, by the way, is the chassis used by Unicat in the large build referenced in the previous post; and so too, the chassis used by Armadillo in one of its large builds.
I will be booking appointments with various companies in Germany and Austria, including ActionMobil and UniCat, to do some more direct, “on the shop-floor” research in June. I have two passports, German and Canadian, and speak German reasonably well, so it should be interesting. At present, I am still trying to establish who I should contact at Rheinmettal MAN, the company that has taken over production of the SX-45.
In the meantime, I figured it would be good to post the MAN brochure on the Expedition Portal, and see what the forum’s response would be. Many thanks, Moe, for your enthusiastic reception!
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2. Ntsqd:
You mentioned that the system you described has been used by the American military “since at least WWII and possibly earlier”. I f you have any links to websites that detail visually what you described above, would you be willing to pass them along?
**********************************
All best wishes,
Biotect
PS – Again, the practical query: How might one upload photographs in such a way that potentially anyone could see them, and not just members who are logged-on? Some of the uploaded images in these threads have a kind of "privacy filter" that prevents outsiders seeing them, while others do not. Mine at present seem to be filtered, but I would like to take the filtering off.
Thanks for the responses; very informative.
**********************************
1. Moe:
This is a design "thesis project" that I will be working on, in earnest next fall, i.e. beginning in September. I've been anticipating a bit, trying to determine the engineering constraints. Please see my first post on page 33 of this thread, for a more thorough explanation.
The basic issue is this: from a purely design point of view, expedition motorhomes seem awfully space-wasteful. In the lingo of the wider RV industry, they are “non-integrated” designs in which a body is simply placed on a truck, whose cab remains separate. So the seating gets duplicated. This contrasts markedly with the most advanced European designs, for instance, Hymer motorhomes. In almost all Hymer RVs, the driver’s seat and passenger seat swivel 180 degrees, and do “double-duty” as dinette seating. Again, please see my post on page 33 for pictures.
I still have to research the design-history of this innovation, but I suspect that it began with the VW Westfalia "camper van", back in the 1960’s -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Westfalia_Campers . Almost all van-sized motorhomes employ double-duty swivel seats to save space, including “Sportsmobile”, which also makes vans that specifically target the expedition market – see http://www.sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html , http://www.sportsmobile.com/4_maxim07.html , http://www.sportsmobile.com/sections/4x4/maxim/maxim07_spread.jpg :
Now the interesting thing is that top-of-the-line Hymers are big. Maybe not as big as Class A American motorhomes, but certainly as large as the biggest expedition motorhomes. So if double-duty swivel seating seems worthwhile in a big Hymer, you’d think it would be worthwhile in a UniCat or ActionMobil, too?
As near as I can tell, the main thing that prevents this, is the need to fix cab and body separately, because the latter has to be mounted on a 3-point pivoting frame. Class A American motorhomes and Hymers can be fully integrated designs, it seems, because they don’t need 3-point pivoting frames. And they do not need 3-point pivoting frames, because “regular” RV’s typically do not experience the same stresses as expedition motorhomes.
However, I then came across the SX-45 brochure, and began wondering why this technology had not yet “migrated” over to UniCat or ActionMobil. As stated in the post just above, ActionMobil has already built at least one 8 x 8 expedition motorhome on a MAN KAT military chassis. So perhaps ActionMobil has good enough relations with MAN military, to be able to request a SX-45 chassis? Would it really cost that much more? The engineering has already been done, and perhaps all that MAN needs to do, is combine the SX-45 chassis with the same engine and drive train used by the 8 x 8 TGS – which, by the way, is the chassis used by Unicat in the large build referenced in the previous post; and so too, the chassis used by Armadillo in one of its large builds.
I will be booking appointments with various companies in Germany and Austria, including ActionMobil and UniCat, to do some more direct, “on the shop-floor” research in June. I have two passports, German and Canadian, and speak German reasonably well, so it should be interesting. At present, I am still trying to establish who I should contact at Rheinmettal MAN, the company that has taken over production of the SX-45.
In the meantime, I figured it would be good to post the MAN brochure on the Expedition Portal, and see what the forum’s response would be. Many thanks, Moe, for your enthusiastic reception!
**********************************
2. Ntsqd:
You mentioned that the system you described has been used by the American military “since at least WWII and possibly earlier”. I f you have any links to websites that detail visually what you described above, would you be willing to pass them along?
**********************************
All best wishes,
Biotect
PS – Again, the practical query: How might one upload photographs in such a way that potentially anyone could see them, and not just members who are logged-on? Some of the uploaded images in these threads have a kind of "privacy filter" that prevents outsiders seeing them, while others do not. Mine at present seem to be filtered, but I would like to take the filtering off.
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The 1990’s/early 2000’s rectilinearism of IKEA is then the direct descendant of this Bauhaus aesthetic, as are most UniCat and ActionMobil interiors. 
