Post pictures of your Land Rover.

[h-block]

That' really interesting, because compared to the US Germany is such a small country and we don't have so much opportunity for off-roading. Or it is cause we're just short of space.......

Anyway, thanks for your nice comments so far; I enjoy beeing here in that forum!

Regards
h-block

 

[I Leak Oil]

Because the market for this type of thing is too small. Seems people are either hardcore wheelers, or RV/Car Camping people. There's little inbetween. Americans just don't "get it" for the most part..

Not sure what you mean by the whole "get it" thing.....
I do agree that the market isn't there for the U.S. but it has nothing to do with getting it. What ever "it" is.
I think it comes down to infrastructure. Here in the U.S. we have lot's of pavement, lots of commercial campgrounds and lots of motels. To a large degree this negates the need for an expensive, self contained shelter for the vast majority of people. This is also why our fourwheel drive market is focused on the recreational aspect instead of the "expedition" aspects that, for example, South African or Australian companys focus on.
I think us ugly Americans get it just fine.:sombrero:

Jason T.

 

[AndrewClarke]

Not sure what you mean by the whole "get it" thing.....
I do agree that the market isn't there for the U.S. but it has nothing to do with getting it. What ever "it" is.
I think it comes down to infrastructure. Here in the U.S. we have lot's of pavement, lots of commercial campgrounds and lots of motels. To a large degree this negates the need for an expensive, self contained shelter for the vast majority of people. This is also why our fourwheel drive market is focused on the recreational aspect instead of the "expedition" aspects that, for example, South African or Australian companys focus on.
I think us ugly Americans get it just fine.:sombrero:

Jason T.

While to some extent I agree with you, I'll also point out that your whole post referred to the U.S. like it's an island. You are flanked to the north by Canada, and to the south by Mexico. That's not even taking into account Alaska and Hawaii. The opportunity exists for either of us to get in our vehicles and drive to Nunavut or Santiago (more or less). There are plenty of opportunities for expedition-ready vehicles.

I think some of it has to do with the "big country/small country" attitude, as well as what you mentioned. A German can get in his/her vehicle and be in any number of countries within a day's drive. This is similar to an American with states. Europeans have Asia and Africa on their "doorstep", whereas Americans tend to not see the full spectrum of the Americas in the same way.

- Andrew.

P.S. My longest trip of this sort has been 9 days so I'm speaking strictly from the experience of my comfy armchair. I have, however, done a lot of other sorts of travelling.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Germany also has lots of pavement and hotels. They have a lot less opportunity to off-road. However, they get a lot more vacation time and it's not unreasonable to drive to Africa or eastern Europe. Both places offer lots of off-pavement driving, as well as cultural exploration opportunities, so many people take travelling vacations. And they usually take their kids with them.

In the US, most of the really great places to go... say Yellow Stone, Grand Canyon, etc. have restrictions on off-highway travel and have large car-camping or RV facilities. So there's no need or use for an "expedition" rig. That leaves recreational 4 wheeling. That has evolved to be more and more hard-core, guys pushing more and more, looking for harder challenges. It can often be not safe for kids so they get left at home, and doesn't allow for carrying much gear. People go for a weekend, or a week at best.

There are opportunities to travel to Mexico, or even into South America, but statistically Americans are less likely to travel abroad in the first place.

Canada is similar to the US with a few differences. We have VAST tracts of wilderness we could travel, but there's not much cultural exploration. If you go north on the resource routes, there's a lot of trees and water, trees and water, trees and water. It can get pretty boring. We also get vacation time somewhat more than in the US, but not near that in Europe. You could go north for a week, but beyond that... takes a special type of person to want to do that. Staying closer to civilization, again, there is no need or use for off-road equipment. Canada is more similar to Australia in a way, however, there are pockets of civilization to visit in Australia. Not so much in Canada because of the difficulty of travelling 9 months of the year. For example, it would be really interesting to visit indian or inuit villages up north, but there are no roads going there. You can't get there from here.

Europeans tend to travel abroad for cultural exploration in places where there are no paved roads. In North America, recreational 4 wheeling IS the culture that many people go for. The differences in setups reflect that.

I don't mean this to be taken in absolute terms. Just a generalization to explain the differences in the markets.

 

[AndrewClarke]

Hi Rob. That's a very good point about the vacation. Many companies in Europe shut down for an entire month in the summer. That's pretty much unheard-of in North America. A friend of mine in San Diego has a few weeks off this summer due to company closure, but that's due to the economy as an alternative to layoffs. Interestingly, it's also a German-owned company.

If you have a month of paid vacation and you have to take it, it can be cheaper for people like the Dutch and Germans to head out of the country. One has only to drive around Europe in June to notice that about 95% of the caravans have NL plates on them.

- Andrew.

 

[I Leak Oil]

While to some extent I agree with you, I'll also point out that your whole post referred to the U.S. like it's an island.

With all due respect please don't put words in my mouth. No where did I state that the U.S. is or is similar to an Island.
I also didn't say the opportunity does not exist to travel outside the U.S. My point is given the opportunities of staying in well established camp grounds, motels and driving paved highways, the need for a self contained off road camper isn't justified with the vast majority of people here in the U.S., thus the soft market for such a unit.
Jason T.

 

[AndrewClarke]

With all due respect please don't put words in my mouth. No where did I state that the U.S. is or is similar to an Island.
I also didn't say the opportunity does not exist to travel outside the U.S. My point is given the opportunities of staying in well established camp grounds, motels and driving paved highways, the need for a self contained off road camper isn't justified with the vast majority of people here in the U.S., thus the soft market for such a unit.
Jason T.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as being negative in any way, and certainly wasn't trying to attack you or your post.

For the record, I enjoyed living in the US for 9 years, so I'm not speaking as a complete outsider. I think Americans are as nice as anyone else but was more referring to most peoples' attitudes. I didn't even mean that in a bad way, but just that I think that's how a lot of Americans see things.

I also stated at the beginning of my post that overall I agreed with you. I was more trying to add to what you said. Additionally (there I go adding again), and as others here have pointed out, most of western Europe is more developed than most of the US, and I think you are more likely to find non-established camping opportunities across most of the US than you are in, say, Germany.

I think that due to the "small country" mentality of many Europeans, and due to the fact that they have longer contiguous blocks of vacation than most Americans, they tend to do more of this sort of travelling.

- Andrew.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Rereading what I wrote... I think what I mean about Americans not getting it is... American 4 wheelers not getting it. A huge number of Americans are into the RVing culture and they drive around exploring America. A large number are also into recreational 4 wheeling, and for them, the wheeling is the culture they're seeking. They drive around America looking for hard trails to do. And by not getting it I mean... not only do they not partake in lighter and longer exploration, but some number actively make fun of anybody who's not hard core because they don't understand the appeal of lighter travel. I've never seen that from any other place. I don't speak German, so I'm not sure what goes on in their forums. But I've never seen an Englishman, Canadian or Australian hard-core 4 wheeler (and there are lots of them) criticizing all other off-highway travellers. They just don't understand the appeal of finding out what's at the end of a long dirt road.

And I don't mean to paint everybody with the same brush. I'm talking in trends. The question was, why are there so many companies making expedition equipment in Germany, Australia, etc. compare to the US which is a much larger and well-heeled country. And the reason is, the Expo community in the US is a small subset of another small subset of the population. In Europe and Australia, the off-road travellers make up a much larger proportion of the general population.

The free market demonstrates this by how it's evolved here. We have much less availability of equipment, trailers, trucks and even adventure motorcycles.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

With all due respect please don't put words in my mouth. No where did I state that the U.S. is or is similar to an Island.
I also didn't say the opportunity does not exist to travel outside the U.S. My point is given the opportunities of staying in well established camp grounds, motels and driving paved highways, the need for a self contained off road camper isn't justified with the vast majority of people here in the U.S., thus the soft market for such a unit.
Jason T.

What is meant by an island is that , you spoke as if the only options for Americans is to stay in America, and that's just not the case. Germans don't restrict themselves to Germany. An American has the option of shipping their rig to Africa or South America, just, not many do.

And it isn't even restricted to people with trucks. Way less Americans travel abroad, by any means, than people from other countries.

 

[I Leak Oil]

Andrew, no problem here, we're cool. I do like the comparison of travelling state to state with travelling from one country in Western Europe to another. That makes sense as one wouldn't need a self contained off road type vehicle to make either journey because of mainstream camping opportunities and motels.

Rob, I think you'd find people from other countries just as apt to make fun of a mall mobile with a roof rack as we do here in America. The Brits, especially, are very good at it! Opps...did I say that out loud?eepwall:
Jason T.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Maybe, but I've never seen it.

No scratch that... last weekend at the OVLR gathering, apparently some other guy with a D2 apparently was talking behind my back about not liking my ARB bumper. This while I was stuck in 2 feet of mud, and winching myself out. He on the other hand didn't have a bumper or a winch at all, and didn't venture off the easy dirt road.

 

[I Leak Oil]

What is meant by an island is that , you spoke as if the only options for Americans is to stay in America, and that's just not the case. Germans don't restrict themselves to Germany. An American has the option of shipping their rig to Africa or South America, just, not many do.

And it isn't even restricted to people with trucks. Way less Americans travel abroad, by any means, than people from other countries.

Rob, I don't believe I mentioned any particular option or limit of travel destination. If that's how you want to interpret it fine, but that's not even close to what I said.
The fact that, as you pointed out, not many Americans travel abroad, and I would say far less in true "expedition" form, further dictates the lack of market for a self contained off road vehicle manufacturer here in the U.S.
Jason T.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Then I think we're in complete agreement. The island thing was just a misinterpretation.

 

[I Leak Oil]

I agree that we agree....I think.
The OVLR B-Day bash is something I've always wanted to get to. Just never seems to happen though. The Moose Trophy is another one.
Jason T.

 

[ExpeditionOz]

My Disco 2 TD5 in action around Australia over the years

Nothing to spectacular here, other than the scenery, but just a few of my favourite shots taken of my Disco 2 TD5 at various locations around Australia over the last few years.

Parked on the edge of Lake Eyre in South Australia.

On the Karunjie Track near Mt Cockburn North, south of Wyndham in Western Australia.

Dwarfed by an ant mound near the Daly River in the Northern Territory.

In front of Island Lagoon near Woomera in South Australia.

Climbing down the Spanish Steps in New South Wales.

Messing around at the AWABA RV test ground in New South Wales.

Looking over the mountains near the site of the old town of Grant in the Victorian alps.

Driving through snow near Mount Poley in Victoria

Perched above the ocean at Seal Rocks in New South Wales.