Pre-Emission Full-sized Trucks

[p nut]

I'm all about simplicity and minimal adequacy, but I passed by a Chevy HD with a FWC on ~37" (or bigger) the other day. I wouldn't mind driving that truck at all. Waaaaay overkill for my usage, but there's something satisfying about taking a truck like that out wherever and not having to worry about....anything. Just push the fun pedal and romp your way through.
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This guy's truck is another fine example (a few threads down): http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...e-F550-camper-Dana-135-locker-Front-True-Trac

 

[Clutch]

I'm all about simplicity and minimal adequacy,

Same here (as you know

but I passed by a Chevy HD with a FWC on ~37" (or bigger) the other day. I wouldn't mind driving that truck at all. Waaaaay overkill for my usage, but there's something satisfying about taking a truck like that out wherever and not having to worry about....anything. Just push the fun pedal and romp your way through.
_
This guy's truck is another fine example (a few threads down): http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...e-F550-camper-Dana-135-locker-Front-True-Trac

yeah the teenage boy comes out in me...ohh baby! I need that!.....then the old man in me, says...no...no...I don't.


Still keep looking at EcoDiesels. Great mileage...be good for commuting, and traveling. A bit low on payload...though I have had Toyotas for so long, I know how to pack light, know they say you can't haul a slide-in camper, wonder if it would handle a FWC Granby shell?

http://www.savagechrysler.com/used/Ram/2014-Ram-1500-482034380a0e0ae8595b246c3642d7f8.htm


Does this just scream old man truck or what!? maybe throw a hard shell RTT on the topper and call it good...

 

[Dalko43]

Leave it mostly stock...some decent AT tires, maybe upgrade the shocks...and call it good. It will average 12....a stock 6.7 diesel averages 14. Sure conditions will vary, and drivers are different...but all and all...mpg's aren't all that much different...if one is concerned about saving money in the end I am not seeing it getting used diesel over a brand new gas. For $30K, think I would go with a brand new gasser over a used diesel. A lot less to worry about.

My '76 Highboy had that color scheme at one point, but was mostly stock except for a set of 16.5" Jackman Wheels. But yeah...a little too boy racer for me.


This is a little more my taste, listed for $6500...$30K budget gives a lot of room to go through it and just fix the mechanicals. No retro mod ....just fix stuff, and live with the 8-10 mpg.

According to fuelly...12 is the average...diesel isn't that much better, 14-15 seems to be the average norm. Yeah man, that is what you should of done! Depending on the F150's cab configuration Max Payload package ranges from 2600-3000 lbs in the 4WD. That would be more than enough for a FWC type camper. "Should" be able to decent mileage too. Do believe we all over think all of this vehicle BS...(myself included! )

Have you seen the spy shots of the F150 with 8 lug hubs?


http://www.trucktrend.com/future-trucks/1610-spied-2018-ford-f-150-super-duty/

No kidding!
Can't really go wrong anymore....it is just nick picking anymore, really. Trucks have gotten better and better...and we have just gotten soft. Man, all that torque of diesel sure would be nice...not sure what I would use it for...but it would nice! Ok...back to looking at underpowered cheap old man trucks...that are barely adequate...


...though, I keep on looking at this setup.

View attachment 371228

Clutch, what is it with you? It seems that every time a thread about diesels pop up, you're always chiming in with your "gassers make more sense" wisdom. I don't want a thirsty V8 gasoline engine for my pickup...they're hugely inefficient, especially once you start adding weight.

I'm not really considering a modern diesel (at least not as they are currently set up) like the 6.7L Cummins you referred to. Rather I'm looking to get an older diesel because they are seem to be much more reliable compared to the newer ones and their mpg is certainly a lot better than anything a gasoline engine, modern or old, can produce. 20-22mpg highway is not all uncommon for LBZ Duramax's and 5.9L Cummins engines. The difference between that and the 14-16mpg highway that most comparable gasoline engines will likely produce is huge and quickly adds up over a few years.

I appreciate that you have your own perspective on this matter, but I'm decidedly in favor of getting a diesel. A lot of these tangential posts of yours, while entertaining, would probably be better off in another thread.

 

[p nut]

One thing I do like about diesels, which has absolutely nothing to do with performance, is the resale value. They're like Tacoma's. My friend sold his '06 2500 Cummins for $32k back in '08 or 09. He could've sold it for the same amount (or at least close to) today.
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FWC Grandby on that truck may work. Payload for a regular cab (Tradesman) is just a touch over 1,500lbs.

http://www.rambodybuilder.com/2014/docs/ram/rammlup1500.pdf

With the Grandby at ~1,000lbs (?), you'd probably be almost at the limit, but with airbags or add a leaf, it'd probably do fine, I would think? Getting one with a 3.6 Pentastar V6 might be another option, but not sure how it would do at altitude, going up a mountain pass. Diesel would be much preferred there (or an ecoboost )

 

[Clutch]

Clutch, what is it with you? It seems that every time a thread about diesels pop up, you're always chiming in with your "gassers make more sense" wisdom. I don't want a thirsty V8 gasoline engine for my pickup...they're hugely inefficient, especially once you start adding weight.

I'm not really considering a modern diesel (at least not as they are currently set up) like the 6.7L Cummins you referred to. Rather I'm looking to get an older diesel because they are seem to be much more reliable compared to the newer ones and their mpg is certainly a lot better than anything a gasoline engine, modern or old, can produce. 21-22mpg highway is not all uncommon for LBZ Duramax's and 5.9L Cummins engines. The difference between that and the 15-16mpg highway that most comparable gasoline engines will likely produce is huge and quickly adds up over a few years.

I appreciate that you have your own perspective on this matter, but I'm decidedly in favor of getting a diesel. A lot of these tangential posts of yours, while entertaining, would probably be better off in another thread.

To drive you cRaZy!

I dunno, I hear the "I'll be saving money on fuel argument" often...but are you really saving any money in the end? No one seems to answer that question. Is it smart to buy an out of warranty diesel vs. a brand new gasser?

The difference of 5-6 mpg isn't all that much for yearly fuel cost.

I don't hate diesels (like you think I do) as we used to own a construction company, they are great for earth moving equipment....but we always purchased our equipment on what makes the most financial sense. Which machine will fetch us the most amount of profit? At your budget and platform you're looking at, it looks like you'll need...what, another $8-10K set aside for repairs?

What kinda weights are you hauling and towing? If you go to the hard sided camper section with the "real life mpg" thread...those guys aren't getting very good mileage. Sure 20+ is achievable empty...but not loaded down.

 

[Clutch]

One thing I do like about diesels, which has absolutely nothing to do with performance, is the resale value. They're like Tacoma's. My friend sold his '06 2500 Cummins for $32k back in '08 or 09. He could've sold it for the same amount (or at least close to) today.
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FWC Grandby on that truck may work. Payload for a regular cab (Tradesman) is just a touch over 1,500lbs.

http://www.rambodybuilder.com/2014/docs/ram/rammlup1500.pdf

With the Grandby at ~1,000lbs (?), you'd probably be almost at the limit, but with airbags or add a leaf, it'd probably do fine, I would think? Getting one with a 3.6 Pentastar V6 might be another option, but not sure how it would do at altitude, going up a mountain pass. Diesel would be much preferred there (or an ecoboost )

Resale value is nutz for clapped out Taco's and Deezuls! I don't get it...must be internet hype!


Those new Rams are running coil springs now, why the payloads are a bit down. It might work with a shell Granby, as the only option I would want would be a heater. Thanks for the link I was looking for that and couldn't find it. EDIT: looks like the Eco is only 1300 lbs (won't work)...I don't understand why put a nice torquey engine in a truck, and have such poor payload, that is is worse than a Tacoma! The SR 4WD's have a 1600 lbs payload.

V6 will probably be fine, I am ok going slow.

No one builds exactly what I want. 30 mpg with a 2000 lbs payload, manual trans, and under $30K. EcoDiesel is real close though...(SR Tacoma is closer)

 

[Dalko43]

To drive you cRaZy!

I dunno, I hear the "I'll be saving money on fuel argument" often...but are you really saving any money in the end? No one seems to answer that question. Is it smart to buy an out of warranty diesel vs. a brand new gasser?

The difference of 5-6 mpg isn't all that much for yearly fuel cost.

I don't hate diesels (like you think I do) as we used to own a construction company, they are great for earth moving equipment....but we always purchased our equipment on what makes the most financial sense. Which machine will fetch us the most amount of profit? At your budget and platform you're looking at, it looks like you'll need...what, another $8-10K set aside for repairs?

What kinda weights are you hauling and towing? If you go to the hard sided camper section with the "real life mpg" thread...those guys aren't getting very good mileage. Sure 20+ is achievable empty...but not loaded down.

I'll be hauling dogs, hunting gear, snowmobiles, and boat trailers on a regular basis. So the weight, while not the same as a RV or camper, will not be insignificant.

You're right that 20+mpg is attainable for diesels with light to no loads; simlarly 14-16 mpg is only achievable for comparable gasoline engines on light to empty loads...the gasoline engine's mpg really starts to tank once you add weight (more so than diesels), which is why I'm inclined to avoid them for my purposes.

I have done the math and these older diesels do in fact save you a good amount of money on annual fuel costs:
Gasoline Regular in my area is ~$2.30. Anticipating 15k miles of driving per year (70% highway 30% city) and 11 mpg when fully loaded down (that's being generous) that comes out to ~1,363 gallons used (or ~ $3,135) per year.

Diesel in my area is ~$2.5. Same driving considerations as before and 18 mpg when fully loaded (which is certainly doable for the 5.9L Cummins and LBZ Duramax) yields ~833 gallons used (or ~$2,083) per year.

That's over $1k savings in fuel per year. Diesel oil changes might cost a bit more, but with the older, pre-emission ones, the frequency of changes will be about the same as comparable gasoline engines. All things considered, these latest, pre-emission diesels are relatively cheap and simple to maintain (unlike the newer diesels) and the annual fuel savings will add up over 4-5 years or if my annual mileage increases.

So, in answer to your concerns, yes these older diesels will no doubt save me money based on the type and amount of driving I plan on doing.

 

[Clutch]

I'll be hauling dogs, hunting gear, snowmobiles, and boat trailers on a regular basis. So the weight, while not the same as a RV or camper, will not be insignificant.

You're right that 20+mpg is attainable for diesels with light to no loads; simlarly 14-16 mpg is only achievable for comparable gasoline engines on light to empty loads...the gasoline engine's mpg really starts to tank once you add weight (more so than diesels), which is why I'm inclined to avoid them for my purposes.

I have done the math and these older diesels do in fact save you a good amount of money on annual fuel costs:
Gasoline Regular in my area is ~$2.30. Anticipating 15k miles of driving per year (70% highway 30% city) and 11 mpg when fully loaded down (that's being generous) that comes out to ~1,363 gallons used (or ~ $3,135) per year.

Diesel in my area is ~$2.5. Same driving considerations as before and 18 mpg when fully loaded (which is certainly doable for the 5.9L Cummins and LBZ Duramax) yields ~833 gallons used (or ~$2,083) per year.

That's over $1k savings in fuel per year. Diesel oil changes might cost a bit more, but with the older, pre-emission ones, the frequency of changes will be about the same as comparable gasoline engines. All things considered, these latest, pre-emission diesels are relatively cheap and simple to maintain (unlike the newer diesels) and the annual fuel savings will add up over 4-5 years or if my annual mileage increases.

So, in answer to your concerns, yes these older diesels will no doubt save me money based on the type and amount of driving I plan on doing.

Thanks for the numbers.

Yeah, your math is about the same as mine...roughly a $1000K in fuel per year...while I am a cheap SOB, still not a whole lot. I tried to make the argument (to myself) of me getting a Suburu Forester over Tacoma...Suby gets roughly 10 mpg more than a Tacoma...just not enough savings on fuel considering how much capability you loose.

What is the repair cost for those older diesels. injector pumps are what, $1000? Full set of injectors are $2000-4000 depending on where you go, yeah?. Then fixing the front end if it hasn't been done, how much will that cost? I like diesels...but they are like automatic transmissions. Don't want to own one out of warranty. Any savings in fuel is shot out the window. Usually a wash in the end.

15K miles a year, so it will be a daily, then?

 

[frojoe]

Injection pump $1000-2000, injectors are more in the range of $1000-$1500 but that depends how many cylinders you have too and they aren't exactly a wear item if you make sure the engine is getting good filtered fuel. I'm not sure of the comment about oil change duration for new diesels vs old diesels but I change my 5.9L oil on a ~20,000km interval (vs 5,000km recommended for a gasser that you care about).. it does soot up quickly but the viscosity and cold/warm oil pressure seem the same after all that mileage. It's true an oil change is a bit more expensive, as a diesel will definitely require twice as much oil as a car.. but that's just if you're comparing minimum quality diesel oil vs. low grade cheapest non-synthetic car oil.. if you're comparing good oil to good oil it's approx the same price per volume.

 

[Clutch]

Injection pump $1000-2000, injectors are more in the range of $1000-$1500 but that depends how many cylinders you have too and they aren't exactly a wear item if you make sure the engine is getting good filtered fuel.

On the injectors, is that just injectors or does that include having a shop to the repair?

Typically how long do they last? 100K, 200K miles?

 

[Dalko43]

Thanks for the numbers.

Yeah, your math is about the same as mine...roughly a $1000K in fuel per year...while I am a cheap SOB, still not a whole lot. I tried to make the argument (to myself) of me getting a Suburu Forester over Tacoma...Suby gets roughly 10 mpg more than a Tacoma...just not enough savings on fuel considering how much capability you loose.

What is the repair cost for those older diesels. injector pumps are what, $1000? Full set of injectors are $2000-4000 depending on where you go, yeah?. Then fixing the front end if it hasn't been done, how much will that cost?

15K miles a year, so it will be a daily, then?

Injectors will likely be an issue for the Cummins, not sure about the Duramax. But that is an upfront, likely one-time or maybe 2-time cost, if you get decent injectors. I'd categorize that as an engine refurbishing cost, rather than annual maintenance, due to its infrequency.

The Ram's front end would have to be dealt with, regardless of if its carrying a gasoline Hemi or diesel Cummins.

This vehicle won't be a daily, but I will drive it quite a bit on long camping trips and hunting trips throughout the northeast and whenever I need to transport gear or dogs, which is frequent.

I will acknowledge that there is probably slightly more annual maintenance associated with a diesel, even a pre-emissions one. But I am picking up this vehicle with the intent of doing most, if not all, of my maintenance and repair work (wrenching is all part of the fun of owning a vehicle IMO) and I just don't think those added costs are anywhere close to compensating for the significant fuel discrepancy between a gasoline and diesel 3/4 ton pickup.

I know that gasoline engines bring their own advantages. For as inefficient and gutless as the 4.0L V6 is in my 4runner, I love the fact that its super reliable, and will run for miles with minimal maintenance.

So I'm not blind to the inherent advantages associated with a good gasoline engine. I've weighed the advantages and disadvantages with each setup and decided that diesel makes more sense for my uses.

 

[frojoe]

Good call.. I do everything myself so it didn't even occur to me shop labour. I think Cummins injector swap is 4hrs or so shop time by the book. I'm honestly not entirely sure how long "on average" injectors can last.. OEM vs. ____ brand can have a difference.. but I would say well past 100k and closer to if not exceeding 200k is to be expected.

It's true there are a few things on a diesel engine that are significantly more expensive than a car (comparing individual parts vehicle-to-vehicle), but for cars the options for ultra cheap replacement parts are endless and in comes the old adage of do you buy the right quality part the first time or keep replacing it with multiple much cheaper parts that are of 'disposable' quality. The reason diesel parts are more expensive is (in my opinion) the minimum buy-in for aftermarket parts is of much higher quality on average than the car equivalent.. these engines are meant to be strong reliable workhorses and not just to get the broke college kid's Cavalier back on the road for roadtrip time. On top of that, you have injection pump, injectors, turbo, and maybe waterpump as things that "can" go wrong on a diesel.. but not necessarily need to be replaced after 100k, 200k, 300k or even higher. Of course it's good practice after a certain time period but it's not necessarily required. A car has timing belts every 100k (and the heinous labour costs shop charge to replace), water pump at the same time usually, ignition coils, spark plugs, plug wires, oil every 5,000k, CV joints and boots.. so many things that will likely require attention sooner than a diesel, not to mention more difficulty and time consuming to replace (re: higher labour cost).

I'm obviously biased towards diesels, but I've always been a bit turned off by the "diesel vs gasser maintenance cost" discussions that takes place online, which are usually unfavouring towards the diesel as opined from a gasser enthusiasts.. my somewhat inexperienced opinion is that in the end, like you say about the mileage, the maintenance cost can potentially all be a wash as well.. all depending on brand, how you the user maintains it, how it was maintained before you, how you abuse it, etc.

Sorry Dalko for derailing the thread here.. I just wanted to step in and defend The Diesels' honour!

 

[Dalko43]

Sorry Dalko for derailing the thread here.. I just wanted to step in and defend The Diesels' honour!

No apology needed. I agree with what you're saying. Both engine types have their inherent pro's and con's, and the argument that gasoline engines are cheaper to maintain may not really hold much water over the long run. I'll concede that the newer diesels, equipped with their emissions systems, have lost something in the way of mpg and reliability, which is why a lot of owners have gone with delete kits for those vehicles.

Emissions aside, I expect that a diesel engine, will provide much better hauling and fuel economy capabilities than a comparable gasoline engine. I've got a lot of long distance camping trips planned for Ontario, where fuel can be scare in the remote areas. Something like a 5.9L Cummins, while perhaps somewhat of an overkill for my purposes, will get me much further than my current 4runner ever could, and certainly much further than a Ram 2500 with a Hemi V8. Fuel economy and range is important to me.

 

[p nut]

Ok, won't clutter your thread with sidebar talk. I went gas for my purposes, but luckily, we live where we've got choices. Like I said above, my friend had a 5.9. That thing was a beast. He put on 70k miles and I don't recall him having any issues. Range was impressive as well. Although a couple of gas cans in the 4Runner will get you where you need to go.
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One negative for me on that 2500 was the ride was a bit harsh. Especially since my friend hauled air 99% of the time (like me), it rode a bit choppy. The newer HD trucks seem to ride better to me. Hopefully that's not an issue for you, especially coming from the plush riding 4Runner.

 

[Dalko43]

Ok, won't clutter your thread with sidebar talk. I went gas for my purposes, but luckily, we live where we've got choices. Like I said above, my friend had a 5.9. That thing was a beast. He put on 70k miles and I don't recall him having any issues. Range was impressive as well. Although a couple of gas cans in the 4Runner will get you where you need to go.
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One negative for me on that 2500 was the ride was a bit harsh. Especially since my friend hauled air 99% of the time (like me), it rode a bit choppy. The newer HD trucks seem to ride better to me. Hopefully that's not an issue for you, especially coming from the plush riding 4Runner.

I considered gas cans on the 4runner at one point, but that required either putting cans up top on some sort of roof rack or putting them on a heavy rear bumper kit. Either approach puts a bit of weight in weird places and throws off the COG and costs a bit of money, so I opted not to go down that road.

The 4runner's ride is relatively nice, with coil-overs all around. The Ram 2500 w/ 5.9L has leaf springs in the rear and is designed to carry a good bit of weight, so it will likely feel a bit more stiff when unloaded....though I'll always have some amount of weight in the bed to mitigate that.

There's no question though, Toyota's 4runner and Landcruiser platforms offer a certain level of comfort that a Ram 2500 just isn't going to have. Lol, trust me when I say there will be things about my 4runner that I'll miss once it's gone. If there is any kool aid that I'm guilty of drinking, it's the Toyota kool aid. They make very good trucks, but they don't offer anything that really fits my needs (at least not in the US).