Project "Autonomous" F-350

[thethePete]

^ That's because the only way to reasonably balance beadlocks is with balancing beads. There is no lip to hammer traditional weights on, and sticky weights are impractical, hell; I used 10oz on the outside of a Sienna rim today I can't imagine how much a beadlock would take. Your best bet would have been to go to a shop that deals in OTR tires and heavy truck tires. probably about 10oz of balancing bags per tire would be enough.

 

[Wilbah]

ThethePete- IIRC the Centrematics use beads and oil to do it. From what Mike is saying though the size of the Centrematics relative to the size of the tire may be at (or just beyond) the extent of their "range". They do make much larger ones for semis etc. so it's not a limitation of the technology- just the size they offer for that hub size relative to the tire size he's running. At least I think that's what's going on...

 

[OR2BAJA]

This may be common knowledge so take it for what it's worth. New tires (should) come with two painted dots a red and a yellow. These dots represent the rough balance point of the tire. When mounting a tire the yellow dot should be aligned with the valve stem. I have owned two sets of 5 trail ready beadlock a 4.75bs and current 5.25bs between these sets I have been through 4 sets of 37" tires and travelled thousands of off road miles and more commuting on Dodge Cummins. The main difference is that I don't run the extra wide ring. I have used balancing beads on one set, my first set of tires. I only had 4 bags of beads and my 5th tire saw constant rotation and after a while I did not know which one was which and did not have any issues. I have sense just mounted them the same way each time with positive results and have done so for friends. I run most of the time on Yoko Geolanders as they are the only tire I have not experienced a failure with. I know you need an e rated tire for obvious weight reasons but I run full recon status at over 4.5 tons. Give it a shot. I got a bunch of buddies rolling desert bound Dodge and Ford diesels without weights or steel buck shot or balance beads. I feel that bead locks are so much safer than traditional wheels. I would reccomend the standard bead ring over the crawler style as the only person that has issues is the guy with the wide ring as it collects too much crud.

My 0.02 is go full kill 4wd swap on u haul and leave the box in factory location.

 

[underdrive]

Another contributing factor is the crappy shocks I have on the truck. I just don't have the budget right now to get some good position sensitive shocks like I need. People always tell me, "you can run those shocks upside down" which I reply "except the fluid will leak past the seals" lol.

If your curretn shocks are gas-charged, as most on the market these days are, force of gravity ain't got nothing on the force created by that pressure inside. Meaning flipping the shocks upside down isn't going to cause them to leak out. The main issue would be aeration, since someone brainiac somewhre ages ago thought it's a good idea to add the gas charge directly into the oil chamber - it's bad enough the oil and the gas mix on rough roads and mess with the valving, but flipping the shocks upside down puts the valves near the top of the shock which is where gas would naturally try to build up, and since gas doesn't do much for motion dampening everything goes to heck. Monotube shocks on the other hand got the oil and gas charges separated by a piston, so in theory they shouldn't care much which way is up and which is down, heck most front-axle Bilsteins are of the upside-down type.

 

[thethePete]

ThethePete- IIRC the Centrematics use beads and oil to do it. From what Mike is saying though the size of the Centrematics relative to the size of the tire may be at (or just beyond) the extent of their "range". They do make much larger ones for semis etc. so it's not a limitation of the technology- just the size they offer for that hub size relative to the tire size he's running. At least I think that's what's going on...

I was responding to the portion where he sounded angry that tire shops wouldn't balance his large, offroad tires on beadlock rims. I was explaining why they couldn't/wouldn't do it.

Everything he's saying regarding the Centrematics is correct, I was just mentioning that the only way beyond those to balance his tires is with balancing beads.

And yes OR2BAJA, any tire installer worth his salt should know what the dots are for, but not every tire is marked, and even at that- it's not a perfect balance, it just minimizes the required weight to balance. Airsoft pellets are another viable option for balancing if you can't get the bead bags from a tire shop. I know guys with bigger mud tires (37"+) that use airsoft pellets to balance. I wouldn't use metal/lead/brass beads for risk of damage to the rim or tires over time.

 

[pappawheely]

ThethePete- IIRC the Centrematics use beads and oil to do it. From what Mike is saying though the size of the Centrematics relative to the size of the tire may be at (or just beyond) the extent of their "range". They do make much larger ones for semis etc. so it's not a limitation of the technology- just the size they offer for that hub size relative to the tire size he's running. At least I think that's what's going on...

Yes, that's exactly right Wilbah

This may be common knowledge so take it for what it's worth. New tires (should) come with two painted dots a red and a yellow. These dots represent the rough balance point of the tire. When mounting a tire the yellow dot should be aligned with the valve stem. I have owned two sets of 5 trail ready beadlock a 4.75bs and current 5.25bs between these sets I have been through 4 sets of 37" tires and travelled thousands of off road miles and more commuting on Dodge Cummins. The main difference is that I don't run the extra wide ring. I have used balancing beads on one set, my first set of tires. I only had 4 bags of beads and my 5th tire saw constant rotation and after a while I did not know which one was which and did not have any issues. I have sense just mounted them the same way each time with positive results and have done so for friends. I run most of the time on Yoko Geolanders as they are the only tire I have not experienced a failure with. I know you need an e rated tire for obvious weight reasons but I run full recon status at over 4.5 tons. Give it a shot. I got a bunch of buddies rolling desert bound Dodge and Ford diesels without weights or steel buck shot or balance beads. I feel that bead locks are so much safer than traditional wheels. I would reccomend the standard bead ring over the crawler style as the only person that has issues is the guy with the wide ring as it collects too much crud.

My 0.02 is go full kill 4wd swap on u haul and leave the box in factory location.

Great info! I am not worth my salt but I'm not a tire guy either. :sombrero:

If your curretn shocks are gas-charged, as most on the market these days are, force of gravity ain't got nothing on the force created by that pressure inside. Meaning flipping the shocks upside down isn't going to cause them to leak out. The main issue would be aeration, since someone brainiac somewhre ages ago thought it's a good idea to add the gas charge directly into the oil chamber - it's bad enough the oil and the gas mix on rough roads and mess with the valving, but flipping the shocks upside down puts the valves near the top of the shock which is where gas would naturally try to build up, and since gas doesn't do much for motion dampening everything goes to heck. Monotube shocks on the other hand got the oil and gas charges separated by a piston, so in theory they shouldn't care much which way is up and which is down, heck most front-axle Bilsteins are of the upside-down type.

The shocks are just so old that the seals are toast.

I was responding to the portion where he sounded angry that tire shops wouldn't balance his large, offroad tires on beadlock rims. I was explaining why they couldn't/wouldn't do it.

Everything he's saying regarding the Centramatics is correct, I was just mentioning that the only way beyond those to balance his tires is with balancing beads.

And yes OR2BAJA, any tire installer worth his salt should know what the dots are for, but not every tire is marked, and even at that- it's not a perfect balance, it just minimizes the required weight to balance. Airsoft pellets are another viable option for balancing if you can't get the bead bags from a tire shop. I know guys with bigger mud tires (37"+) that use airsoft pellets to balance. I wouldn't use metal/lead/brass beads for risk of damage to the rim or tires over time.

You answered my question. I have seen lead shot and BB's grind a hole through rims before. As Wilbah says, the Centramatics have weighted material that is in a special fluid so it does not heat up due to friction. The diameter of ring that fits my rims is not large enough for a 37. If I had bigger wheels and less sidewall, I could run a larger diameter that would work better. I chose the wide rings on my trailready's because I will eventually have Pressure Pro TPIS sensors mounted to the valve stems and wanted to protect them.

 

[patoz]

So, after reading all of this am I correct in assuming that for someone who has a 2004 F250 Super Duty running Michelin X Radial LT265/75R16E tires on stock Ford aluminum rims, that is getting a very annoying vibration between 40 and 45 mph, which the tire balancing experts can't seem to get rid of, the Centramatics would be a worthwhile investment to solve the problem?



I don't want to hijack your thread, but you guys seem to know more about the Centramatics than anyone else I've talked to, so any advise is appreciated!

 

[thethePete]

No, because the vibration you're experiencing isn't tire related. It's likely driveline if you can drive through it. Tire imbalance gets worse with speed and can't be driven out of, but can be backed down out of by reducing speed. Front end parts get worse and often can't be backed out of until very very low speeds. Tires generally show around 80km/h and get worse from there. My .02

 

[patoz]

No, because the vibration you're experiencing isn't tire related. It's likely driveline if you can drive through it. Tire imbalance gets worse with speed and can't be driven out of, but can be backed down out of by reducing speed. Front end parts get worse and often can't be backed out of until very very low speeds. Tires generally show around 80km/h and get worse from there. My .02

OK, here are two additional factors to consider:

1. I bought the tires from Sam's Club (like Costco) and took them to my regular tire guy to mount and balance in 2011 when I first bought the truck. He is very experienced and has been balancing tires since I met him in 1972. He could not get any of the five perfectly balanced then, and told me that the version of tires Michelin makes for Sam's, Costco, Walmart, etc. are not as good of quality as the original, and that is why they are able to sell them so much cheaper.

2. In April 2014, I took the truck to my local dealer to have some bushings replaced, and ended up replacing everything to do with the steering system. In addition, the brake disc were turned, tires were rebalanced, and the front end aligned. Everything is now perfect except for that nagging vibration, which I can feel both in the steering wheel and under my feet. It seems like every 4WD truck I have owned has had this problem, and is what we called, 'Four Wheel Forty'.

 

[pappawheely]

The guys from Centramatic told me they can cure imbalance but nothing can cure out of round. That might be your problem.

 

[thethePete]

Yeah, if you bought crappy tires, with bad carcasses then they'll be tough to balance, but once again, I maintain it's a driveline issue, not a tire or rim issue. If you can drive out of it, it's not likely to be a tire. Pinion angle usually causes low-speed vibrations that can be driven through.

I guess I shouldn't irrefutably say "it's not tires" but I would be looking very hard elsewhere before I condemned tires. I also don't cheap out on tires, but I spent a few years as a retreader, building tires before I became a mechanic. You also kinda hinted towards what I was saying. I said it's not going to be brakes, or steering components, but likely driveline. Steering/suspension tends to come in at a certain speed and then not go away until you're nearly stopped. Tires tend to start around 80km/h and go away when you drop back below that speed, and get worse as speed increases. Driveline vibrations are typically at lower speeds and can be driven through, that is to say they start at a certain speed and then go away above that.

What I'm trying to say is that there is no reason for there to be incurable vibrations, if you're willing to spend the time to diagnose them and replace the parts causing the problem. If you have a poorly installed lift that has your pinion angle out of whack, that'll cause a vibration and the only way to correct it is to correct the pinion angle. If you have a vibration from cheap, poorly constructed tires, the only way to fix it is to buy better tires. If you have a vibration from running unbalanced, offroad rims, see above. None of it is incurable, you just need to have someone diagnose it properly.

I had a guy argue with me for a month, and 4 different visits to our shop that his lift blocks were installed backwards and were causing his low-speed vibration. His pinion angle was about 4* off from the output of the transmission. I flipped his blocks around, got the angles to within .5* (spec for any u-joint drive shaft), and lo and behold, his vibration went away. If you've lifted your truck with an add-a-leaf or anything, that would be the first place I'd check. I've never seen your truck in pictures or in person, but I've dealt with a lot of lifted trucks in my career and I can tell you that none of them had a consistent vibration at 40mph that goes away after that.

ETA: Also, if you're still on your same set of tires from 2011, they're nearing the end of their life cycle, so they will be getting harder and harder to balance as the carcass begins to fail.

 

[patoz]

The guys from Centramatic told me they can cure imbalance but nothing can cure out of round. That might be your problem.

The guy that originally balanced them checked that after he started having problems, and I asked the Ford dealer to check it also, but I don't know if they really did or not.


No lift on the truck, just what came from the factory. Everything is stock, except I replaced the worn out OEM shocks with Monroe's a couple of years ago.

Even though I bought the tires in 2011, they only have about 6,000 or 7,000 miles on them. I had a SUV I drove most of the time until last year when I sold it. Now I drive the F250 regularly. The vibration has been there since day one, but the start and stop mph range did shift up a few points when I had the tires rebalanced at the dealer.

While it was at the dealer, I told them to check everything including u-joints, bearings, etc. and they said it was all OK. I don't think they checked the rear driveline though.

But enough derailing! One more question and I'll get off of here...

I have the switch on the dash to engage the 4WD, which I hate. I have not really had this truck off road, and that's not what I bought it for. However, my yard angles down sharply towards the curb and on several occasions I have used 4WD to back up the incline to my storage building. The last time I did I noticed my back wheels spun, but the front did nothing even though the dash lights indicated it was in 4WL. I haven't checked the vacuum lines yet, but will soon.

I have rebuilt dozens of warn locking hubs before, so I'm somewhat familiar with how the Ford Auto/Manual hubs work also. Most of the time they either work or they don't and something is trashed inside. So, is there anyway a defective hub could be causing the vibration at 40-50 mph range, even though there is no indication like heat or noise, that anything is wrong with them?

I wish I had another set of tires and rims that I know are good, to test it with and that would narrow it down pretty quickly.

 

[Wilbah]

Paton I don't doubt your mechanic couldn't balance them for some reason but if they were the same version (model) as is sold at major tire stores I doubt they are of a different quality. I have read that Goodyear makes some models only for Sam's and the hint is there were of lesser quality which led to a lower price. I have bought Michelin numerous times from Sam's and have had no problems. For those the difference wasn't so much in the tire price (only a couple of bucks difference per tire) but instead it was the mounting and balancing etc. that saved me a lot at Sams. Plus the road hazard, lifetime rotation etc. Those incidentals saved me about 20 a tire iirc.

 

[underdrive]

In April 2014, I took the truck to my local dealer to have some bushings replaced, and ended up replacing everything to do with the steering system. In addition, the brake disc were turned, tires were rebalanced, and the front end aligned. Everything is now perfect except for that nagging vibration, which I can feel both in the steering wheel and under my feet. It seems like every 4WD truck I have owned has had this problem, and is what we called, 'Four Wheel Forty'.

Hmm, none of our 4x4 trucks have that issue. Well, one did, but it had it while it was still 2wd, and it ended up going away when the new driveshaft went in during the 4x4 conversion. Same thing happened to one of our friends, annoying 40-45 mph vibration when truck was 2wd, after converting to 4x4 and receiving new rear shaft no more issues. The driveshafts are of two different types btw, ours has a slip joint built into it and runs a fixed yoke at the T-case (so like what your NVG has), while our friend's is a one-piece tube with a slip yoke at the t-case. The common factor for both shafts was the person who did the cutting and balancing, an old-timer who really takes pride in his work. So, if all else fails, take your driveshaft off and take it in for high-speed check and (if it needs it) balancing. If you like to run with your front axle engaged but not powered (hubs locked in, t-case in 2wd) a lot then you may want to have the front shaft checked as well.

 

[guidolyons]

. Airsoft pellets are another viable option for balancing if you can't get the bead bags from a tire shop. I know guys with bigger mud tires (37"+) that use airsoft pellets to balance. I wouldn't use metal/lead/brass beads for risk of damage to the rim or tires over time.

Airsoft BBs are what I run. 37 BFG KM2 with beadlocks. I used ~8 oz. per tire. Been 5 years and its my DD.