Question for the TDI folks
- Thread starter wagsww3
- Start date
meatblanket
Adventurer
I agree that as a practical matter the 25 year old exemption applies only when original drivetrain is intact. However, I was under the impression that the EPA only regulates the importation of vehicles, not parts, per this EPA document:
http://www.epa.gov/oms/imports/quiktext.htm
which says, in pertinent part:
B. (2) Engine not in Vehicle or Chassis
EPA regulates the entire vehicle, not individual parts, for cars, light trucks, and motorcycles. If an engine is not installed, and is to be used in a car, motorcycle, or light truck, it may be imported as an automotive part. No approval or Customs bond is required by EPA.
So, I think it is fine to import your 300tdi or your TD5, so long as it isn't installed in a chassis. You only commit a crime when you install such an engine in a vehicle that IS subject to EPA regulations (which is 21 years old, not 25 years like NHTSA). Put the non-EPA certified engine in an exempt vehicle, and you should be fine.
I admit that just looking at the EPA Form 3250-1 can lead to some confusion on the issue, but that is why the EPA publishes documents to help resolve ambiguities that may come up if you are just relying just on the forms.
DividingCreek
Explorer
RMR has owned that truck a couple of times. Great running truck that has seen some use. They used it most recently @ the Natl Rally in Colorado.
DividingCreek
Explorer
Meatblanket,
Yes the rules seemingly are meant to be contradictory, @ least thats what my atty came up with. If you google around many have had 200 tdi and 300 tdi engines refused entry by Customs. IE if its denied entry on its own strapped to a pallet you aren't supposed to have it. Once entered issues really only arise if you intend to install in an obd 2 vehicle. Interpert the rules as you like. I do this this for a living 8-10 hours a day and have some considerable experience with the matter. Engine imports usually require an HS7 form unless the officer is really off his game.
Yes the rules seemingly are meant to be contradictory, @ least thats what my atty came up with. If you google around many have had 200 tdi and 300 tdi engines refused entry by Customs. IE if its denied entry on its own strapped to a pallet you aren't supposed to have it. Once entered issues really only arise if you intend to install in an obd 2 vehicle. Interpert the rules as you like. I do this this for a living 8-10 hours a day and have some considerable experience with the matter. Engine imports usually require an HS7 form unless the officer is really off his game.
Sorry to digress from the original thread subject, but what is the significance of the HS7 form? Also, how do you "guarantee" entry for a TDI? I am just curious, I am not interested in buying one. Thanks
And thanks for the info on the 130. That's good information.
Rovertrader
Supporting Sponsor
guarantee- NOT, In fact not on any importation, as the 'rules' are up for inturpretation.. but Doug can certainly address this better than anyone else I know.
DividingCreek
Explorer
Walt, the 130's wheel base is actually 127 inches. I think one of these on 35's would be awesome. I have run 33's since buying the truck and they look tiny on it. The black truck @ Red Mountain does need door bottoms. They (RMR) have a dozen pairs of brand new front doors in their warehouse so negotiate accordingly.
Rocket Ship
Banned
The silver 2007 110 they have looks pretty cool. Seems a bit more flash than real ruggedness, but it's neat. Now, how did they ever get that in-country if they're not even pretending that it's old? It's labelled as a 2007. And who did the prepwork? Almost looks like Nene or Trek Overland or something. The work definitely looks European, and by somebody who'd done this a few times before. 
DividingCreek
Explorer
No idea on the truck on their website. They buy up trucks already imported by others, so doubt they could answer your "how" questions. I just know the black 130 because I have seen it @ events. Tim the owner of RMR drove it as his personal truck for a year after he bought it from the Roaring Fork Land Rover dealership in Colorado and recently bought it back and used it @ the Natl Rally. There aren't but a handfull of 130's in the states and its easy to keep track of them.
meatblanket
Adventurer
Dealing with it as a gray area is certainly better than a bright line rule saying that the engine must be >21 or >25 years old to be legally imported. At least if you lose that argument, it isn't without support in the EPA's own literature.
I'll consider myself lucky that the customs officer was off his game when my container was cleared, although he was sharp enough to require an HS7 form for some road wheels that were included on the BOL along with the engines.
Btw, I don't do this for a living, but I do have some legal training and have researched the issues, only to conclude that there are some gray areas yet and a lack of uniformity in enforcement.
DividingCreek
Explorer
Yep- the uniformity varies from officer to officer. I have had them inspect trucks with tdi engines and even take pictures but cleared the cars for entry. Other officers issue a 10 day detention letter and make things as difficult as they can. I imported a brand new 110 body shell on a rolling chassis @ one point. I did the research, stripped the car to the point that it shouldn't be an issue, provided dot with pictures, and asked permission. Their response was to treat me like some child molester. My response was that if I wasn't totally above board I wouldn't have alerted them to my intent nor would have I asked for their approval prior to even booking shipment. They approved the entry.
US Customs has more power than any other Government agency. They have a "Field Guide" book (can be found on the net) for how things are supposed to work but in reality many of the agents act like its the wild west. I have imported vehicles and parts into most US ports. Things vary greatly port to port.
In June I had a truck selected for an intensive exam-this after they have x rayed the container (Vacis exam). The truck was in a container with another truck so by default both were being inspected. The container was moved to a bonded warehouse of their designation and unloaded ($1680). Customs arrives to inspect the trucks which are both unlocked and out of the container. They proceeded to take a crow bar and pry open the unlocked rear door of one of the 110's. This was nothing but wonton destruction. The keys to trucks in containers are left in the ignition-there was absolutely no justification.
That particular truck had some personal effects of the owner carefully packed in the truck. These items were removed from boxes and just thrown in the back of the truck loose as they were inspected. They cleared the trucks as they had no reason not to but not without leaving crow bar marks all over the door and rear cappings of that 110. The container was then reloaded and re-sealed and moved back to the port instead of letting me pick the items up from the warehouse I just paid $1700 to use so i incurred another $500 expense having the container moved again. The truck wasn't damaged in shipment, the bonded warehouse didn't do it, so I had no culpable party to go after for damages. Our government @ work for us. I could tell stories for hours-that's just a recent one I'm still obviously not quite over.
US Customs has more power than any other Government agency. They have a "Field Guide" book (can be found on the net) for how things are supposed to work but in reality many of the agents act like its the wild west. I have imported vehicles and parts into most US ports. Things vary greatly port to port.
In June I had a truck selected for an intensive exam-this after they have x rayed the container (Vacis exam). The truck was in a container with another truck so by default both were being inspected. The container was moved to a bonded warehouse of their designation and unloaded ($1680). Customs arrives to inspect the trucks which are both unlocked and out of the container. They proceeded to take a crow bar and pry open the unlocked rear door of one of the 110's. This was nothing but wonton destruction. The keys to trucks in containers are left in the ignition-there was absolutely no justification.
That particular truck had some personal effects of the owner carefully packed in the truck. These items were removed from boxes and just thrown in the back of the truck loose as they were inspected. They cleared the trucks as they had no reason not to but not without leaving crow bar marks all over the door and rear cappings of that 110. The container was then reloaded and re-sealed and moved back to the port instead of letting me pick the items up from the warehouse I just paid $1700 to use so i incurred another $500 expense having the container moved again. The truck wasn't damaged in shipment, the bonded warehouse didn't do it, so I had no culpable party to go after for damages. Our government @ work for us. I could tell stories for hours-that's just a recent one I'm still obviously not quite over.
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meatblanket
Adventurer
Did the bill for the warehouse also include an invoice for the time spent by customs agents prying their way into the truck and ransacking the contents? Or did you get that service for free?:Wow1:
That has to be frustrating as there is no recourse. I had heard that these things happen and was quite relieved when they didn't happen in my case. Don't know if I'll tempt fate again, but I'm sure you've noticed that the UKP is taking a beating recently, so who knows.:sombrero:
That has to be frustrating as there is no recourse. I had heard that these things happen and was quite relieved when they didn't happen in my case. Don't know if I'll tempt fate again, but I'm sure you've noticed that the UKP is taking a beating recently, so who knows.:sombrero:
lwg
Member
This seems like a dangerous proposition for a dealership to be selling trucks that are questionably legal at best.
wagsww3
Explorer
Kip @ RMR is coming off of the price considerably and throwing in four "brand new" doors. Over the years that I've been trying to actually own a defender, I keep hearing the same questions. If it appears to be newer than advertised then the guy wanted it to look newer. Who wouldn't if they're dropping 20 or 30 grand or more on a rig? I would. Just like an old Jeep cj. Put TJ grille, hood, fenders, suspension and what ever motor you want in it and it looks newer than it is. You can buy every nut, bolt, body panel ect. for these defenders in the U.S. to make them as "late model" as you want as long as it can be registered and insured based on its true and legal specs as in 1985 diesel land rover defender 110 and so on. Right? I can see a ton of possibilities with that 130 knowing that I'll have to fix stuff here and there and I feel the same way about some very clean 110's that I've found. All are titled as the early 80's vehicles that they are but they are all very clean and updated. You guys are all helping a great deal with your questions and answers and I keep checking to see what is being posted next. I'm very excited about being this close to picking up my truck but I'm also being very cautious at the same time. Keep the comments and info coming!
overlander
Expedition Leader
I'll throw in my $0.02 and say go with the TDI. They are dead easy to work on once you familiarize yourself with them and easy to source parts for.