Reliability Toyota --- Coming from a Land Rover Owner

[esh]

The HD-T and 1HZ Toyota I6 diesels used extensively in the 70 series Land Cruisers both have timing belts.

 

[PeterN]

I'm about to put a final head gasket on my 2001 LR Disco 2 and sell it. I could fill a photo album with the number of times it's ridden on a flatbed....it started to become darkly humorous after a while. Luckily I was never disabled by myself relying on HAM radio or SPOT to get rescued. Catastrophic plastic bleeder valve failure at Pilsbury Lake, 3 Amigos, rear door latch from hell, cylinder 4 misfire (cracked cylinder), new rebuilt top-hat liner engine from Atlantic British, cylinder 5 (blown gasket), Cylinder 3 misfire (blown gasket).

I love the truck but I'm going to visit a 2006 100 Series this weekend and probably bring it home and report back after a few thousand miles.

 

[4Beast]

I think the fact that many Land Rovers look great (particularly the Defender series, IMO) and are really capable when they are running keeps tempting people, like that stunningly hot girlfriend who is great in the sack but utterly batsh1t crazy and abusive. It's the way the Japanese and Brits view their engineering, I think. The Japanese strongly prioritize reliability, usually at the expense of conservative styling and engineering advancements, while the UK companies seem to accept less reliability, but push the envelope other ways. To some extent I could accept a sports car being finicky, but I can't accept an off road vehicle being anything less than very reliable. The Japanese seem to engineer a lot of redundancies and margin for error into their vehicles, and the Land Roves appear to never consider that.

 

[Deshet]

The HD-T and 1HZ Toyota I6 diesels used extensively in the 70 series Land Cruisers both have timing belts.

Regardless of who puts a timing belt on a Diesel engine it still makes no sense. It sounds like Toyota wanted to create some work and business for the service departments. One thing I noticed earlier on when traveling a good part of this world is that most people outside of the USA don't have that always needing to upgrade mentality that many in the USA have. My uncle, kept has 1996 diesel Landcruiser until he died. He had the money to buy anything he wanted but did not have a reason to upgrade. Toyota is capitalizing on some revenue streams.

The one slight benefit of a timing belt is a slightly quieter engine, but that will never outweigh the proven reliability associated with timing chains. Although VW, Chrysler, Jaguar, and a few others have been having trouble with timing chain guides as they try and make everything lighter; the technology of chains and double timing chains have been proven across the the highways and back roads of this county for decades.

I am not aware of a diesel with continuous duty cycle rating that uses a timing belt. When buying a diesel you want something that mirrors the design of an over the road truck but in a smaller platform.

 

[Pntyrmvr]

Let's recall all the small block Chev engines put into Jaguars in the 80's. And into Land Cruisers as well.

And I hate Chevs.


"Talk is cheap. Whiskey costs money."

 

[babybluebeast]

I love range rover classics. they look so awesome. I was going to buy one and found one that was great body suspension wise and started running the numbers on doing an LS Swap with a 4L65e and an adapter to run a land cruiser FZJ80 tcase, then add lockers and it quickly became evident that i should just buy an FZJ80 with lockers. Since that time all classic 4x4's have all gone up in value and i wish i would have bought the RR and the FZJ80 and just put the RR in storage.

 

[toylandcruiser]

Let's recall all the small block Chev engines put into Jaguars in the 80's. And into Land Cruisers as well.

And I hate Chevs.


"Talk is cheap. Whiskey costs money."

Ummm huh?

 

[babybluebeast]

I hate things that are under powered and/or unreliable. especially if they are over complicated and their electrical system sucks....

 

[jcoleman]

Nearly every performance inspired British vechile is ready for the dump at 100,000 miles. Even those that love British cars are ready and waiting for something to break. (Renault,Triumph, Jaguar, Land Rover)
Thanks

I'm not sure who would be more insulted by the false premise that Renault is British--the Brits themselves or the French!

 

[DiscoDavis]

They rarely use British engineered engines.

200tdi, 300tdi, Td5, AJV8 in its varied forms, TDV6 in various forms; British designed/made, arguably the most widespread outside of the Buick derived alu V8's that were fitted from 1971 to 2004. Land Rover designed motors from the 90s onwards were quite advanced for some time.

It's fair to say that they did and do outsource powerplants also, but rarely is a bad word to stick to.

Nearly every performance inspired British vehicle is ready for the dump at 100,000 miles.

Hyperbole

Even those that love British cars are ready and waiting for something to break.

True. Got a wrench and some sealant in the back always. The good ones are easy to fix.

Why they put a timing belt on a diesel makes no sense to me.

Noise was the reason. Not saying a chain isn't better, it's just what they did.

When Ford bought Land Rover that was probably the peak of its relaibility.

Yes and no. Ford ownership maximized the service intervals which is/was great. Very reliable service intervals and good components. However fixing them got harder and space got tighter to work in. Parts cost is huge. Public perception in North American markets is largely skewed by the horrific BMW ownership in the early 2000s. Bad electronics was always the running joke since forever, but this is where all the crazy fault codes and car-stopping computers came in.

Used Land Rover in England are cheap. I was reading a British defender ad the other day where the owner of a Defender bragged about having one of the few without aftermaket welds re-enforcing his frame.

Simplest answer is: huge rust-prone climate, all RHD, large concentration of vehicles in one place with very stringent MOT laws. See all the snapped toyota truck frames from back then too.

Just saying they are cheap in the UK isn't saying much.

 

[DiscoDavis]

I think the fact that many Land Rovers look great (particularly the Defender series, IMO) and are really capable when they are running keeps tempting people, like that stunningly hot girlfriend who is great in the sack but utterly batsh1t crazy and abusive. It's the way the Japanese and Brits view their engineering, I think. The Japanese strongly prioritize reliability, usually at the expense of conservative styling and engineering advancements, while the UK companies seem to accept less reliability, but push the envelope other ways. To some extent I could accept a sports car being finicky, but I can't accept an off road vehicle being anything less than very reliable. The Japanese seem to engineer a lot of redundancies and margin for error into their vehicles, and the Land Roves appear to never consider that.

Being stateside, you are likely thinking more of the V8 powered Land Rover products, which are pretty poor with some exception and fit what you are saying. Diesel models (never sold here) can be fixed with pliers and baling wire, they are 99% mechanical. Land Rover considered reliability only for the Rest Of World market and the Range Rover, 90/110, and Discovery before BMW bought them.

Just think of a very extreme version of say a 3rd or 4th gen 4runner versus a diesel 70 series. The Rovers everyone but America got were easy to work with. American market reputation is based on one of the worst samples.

 

[darien]

There is a reason my sister in laws '03 Disco is worth $2500 and my '99 TLC is worth $12,500.

Edit- (01/13/16). Timing belt failed, and two bearings gone in engine. Repair estimate: $3100. Anybody want a parts Disco???

This says it all. Read this post a couple of times.

Have had a LR that was a nightmare - literally lost sleep over it worrying how I could both pay for all the repairs and also pay the mortgage, and I'm not poor. Check my sig for what I have now, and ALL THREE vehicles have cost less to repair/keep up than the LR did. I would get in any of them and drive anywhere there is a road - with no more prep than a full tank and a full fridge.

 

[Dalko43]

Being stateside, you are likely thinking more of the V8 powered Land Rover products, which are pretty poor with some exception and fit what you are saying. Diesel models (never sold here) can be fixed with pliers and baling wire, they are 99% mechanical. Land Rover considered reliability only for the Rest Of World market and the Range Rover, 90/110, and Discovery before BMW bought them.

That's a bit of an over generalization there. I'm pretty sure the most recent Duratorq diesel engines used in the latest versions of the Defender were in fact electronically controlled, not mechanical. I can't speak to LR's reputation overseas for reliability, though it does seem that Toyota and Nissan, among others, have done far better jobs of capturing the global 4x4 markets.

Just think of a very extreme version of say a 3rd or 4th gen 4runner versus a diesel 70 series. The Rovers everyone but America got were easy to work with. American market reputation is based on one of the worst samples.

Not a good analogy you're using there.

Firstly, the 4runner is a derivative of the LandCruiser Prado platform that Toyota sells globally. The LC 70 is a different platform all together.

Secondly, other than the engines (the US vehicles got gasoline while the global ones got diesel), the 4runners and LandCruiser 200's that Japan imports into the US are pretty much the same as their global variants. The only 4x4's specifically designed for North American markets are the Tacoma and the Tundra/Sequoia.

Thirdly, the gasoline engines Toyota puts in most of its US 4x4's are extremely simple and reliable, even compared to the diesels used in overseas markets. In fact, a major criticism of Toyota's US offerings is that they have stuck with simple, but inefficient, naturally-aspirated gasoline v6's and v8's, while other truck companies are moving to turbo gasoline or turbo diesel setup's.

 

[DiscoDavis]

I'm pretty sure the most recent Duratorq diesel engines used in the latest versions of the Defender were in fact electronically controlled, not mechanical. I can't speak to LR's reputation overseas for reliability, though it does seem that Toyota and Nissan, among others, have done far better jobs of capturing the global 4x4 markets.

Should have been clearer: Referring to Pre BMW era. All diesel plants 300tdi, 200tdi, 19J, 12J are mechanical. The Td4, Td5, TDV6 are ECU controlled. When you say 'it seems', who knows? Anecdotal. Market capture is certainly going to Toyota, Nissan, Ford, and the others now that LR is not making anything utilitarian. In the past, I'd say the market favored LR but look that's me too getting anecdotal. Nothing against Toyota.

Not a good analogy you're using there.

Firstly, the 4runner is a derivative of the LandCruiser Prado platform that Toyota sells globally. The LC 70 is a different platform all together.

Secondly, other than the engines (the US vehicles got gasoline while the global ones got diesel), the 4runners and LandCruiser 200's that Japan imports into the US are pretty much the same as their global variants. The only 4x4's specifically designed for North American markets are the Tacoma and the Tundra/Sequoia.

Thirdly, the gasoline engines Toyota puts in most of its US 4x4's are extremely simple and reliable, even compared to the diesels used in overseas markets. In fact, a major criticism of Toyota's US offerings is that they have stuck with simple, but inefficient, naturally-aspirated gasoline v6's and v8's, while other truck companies are moving to turbo gasoline or turbo diesel setup's.

You're getting more specific than I meant with the poor analogy. Just intended to convey an apples to oranges situation. Lets say a US V8 3rd gen vs a 90s Aussie mining spec 70 series, meaning when you compare say a crap 2000s disco2 V8 with a 90s diesel Land Rover there is no point. Worlds different. Even exact years say 2000 V8 Disco to 2000 Td5 Defender, the V8 is literally a bored out 60s motor and the Td5 is (at the time) a state of the art turbodiesel. Don't know all Toyota model differences but this is where I was headed with that.

 

[brentbba]

Here's Toyota reliability. 250,000 miles this morning.