RMP&O's v8 80-series

[RMP&O]

your efforts to find the necessary parts combination to properly align this monster truck.

Even though I know you are being your normal troll self I am going to respond.

The truck has Old Man Emu coil springs, heavy duty. I was not aware that OME made "monster truck" springs. Perhaps you can enlighten us though.

The tires the truck came with, Wild Country 35x12.5R15 measured 33" with a tape. The new tires, Cooper STT are a 35x12.5R15 and measure 34.5". Do you consider this to be "monster truck", if so please explain.

The large majority of 80-series Cruisers running around with a lift have a 2.5" or there abouts OME lift. This amount of lift, ie 2-3", does not take castor to far out from stock. Roughly 3 degrees. On average the general consensus is that for every 1" of lift you lose 1* of castor. As is usual with my trucks, "general" doesn't apply. With 4" of lift my castor is out roughly 9*. Since most people only need to correct 3* or so an offset bushing is usually what is used to correct the castor and also the pinion angle. Other items on the market, which I should add help with up to 4" of lift are castor plates and drop brackets. When big castor correction is required, the 4-6+" lifts, new radius arms is generally used sometimes with the addition of offset busnings. The Slee arms for example, correct 8* of castor, more if you add bushings to them. Drop brackets are what the truck had on it when I picked it up. These are made by 4+ fab who sold a ton of their products through Man-a-Fre. They make brackets in 2",3",4" and possibly more. These brackets put the radius arms back into the stock location to correct the castor and the pinion angle, they do this by lowering the radius arm. However, I do not like them since they reduce ground clearance substantially. Also mine had been in since at least 2005 and when I removed them, I see obvious signs or slop by oval-ed out holes in the brackets. Myself, I like to lift a truck and retain as much of the stock components as I can. As such I am after a solution that resolves my castor issues along with my pinion angle yet does not use a combination of bushings, plates and brackets to get me there. I am all for using Slee radius arms to get the truck how I want it, however, after reading direct first hand accounts of aftermarket radius arms fixing castor but not pinion angle I am leaning away from that as my solution. The best solution for me is to cut & turn the front axle, this retains most of the stock components and sets castor plus pinion angle back to stock. However, due to the design of the front end on an 80 I can only gain a small amount with a C&T. A good friend proved a C&T will work on his truck as he did one and the results were stellar. However, he was in that 2-3" lift range. For me to be able to C&T as much as I want I need the tie rod relocated to the front of the axle. To relocate the tie rod I may very well need to relocate the panhard on the axle side and or both the frame side too. Hellfire knuckles are new knuckles that are manufactured with the mini-truck 80-series axle swap in mind, ie rock crawling. It makes for a much more buff knuckle and relocates the tie rod to in front of the axle as well as making it high steer. At this point a C&T will net much more castor gain. On top of this if I go one step farther I can torch all the brackets off the axle for radius arms, coil springs and panhard. I can then relocate these to match a stock set up, only lifted. The end result is increased strength, better ground clearance, stock components (for the most part) and a truck that is lifted 4" but drives like it is 100% stock.

I put a digital level on my axle before removing drop brackets, while attempting the C&T and after installing 3* bushings. So I am pretty familiar with what is going on as well as what it should be at stock. Ultimately, I am after castor about 1* over stock to compensate for larger than stock tires. Increased castors works good with larger tires. The larger the tire the more you should increase it over stock.

Now maybe I have more than 4" in front. I know I have OME J springs in the rear which should give 4" of lift, maybe 5" empty. It may have had a J spring in front at 4" of lift, I do not know. However, the truck had bad stink bug which I did not like. To level it out I lifted the front an additional 2" using a spacer. This gave me a truck that sits only 1* from level, which I like. I have heard reports of a J spring in the rear and it taking a 6" coil in front to level the truck out so it is possible I have more than 4" of lift in front. Why so much lift and why don't I just lower the truck? Because I like it this way! It is a standard OME J spring lift, it is nothing out of the ordinary or extreme. I am not loaded down though so I am getting the max amount of lift from the kit.

That clear things up for ya Zimm buddy? Should be clear to everybody now what is the deal when you lift an 80, what most people do about it and what I am doing about it.

Cheers

 

[krazytoy]

It's always going to drive like ******** and there is no way to fix it, you should sell it and buy a Jeep... :ar15:

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Ian, have you considered getting a bit more caster though offset knuckle bearings? They offer up to 3* of caster correction. Downside is a slightly smaller knuckle bearing and longevity isn't super proven as they are a rather new option stateside. They have been using them overseas for a bit.

 

[Sempertoy]

Even though I know you are being your normal troll self I am going to respond.

LOL

 

[RMP&O]

Ian, have you considered getting a bit more caster though offset knuckle bearings? They offer up to 3* of caster correction. Downside is a slightly smaller knuckle bearing and longevity isn't super proven as they are a rather new option stateside. They have been using them overseas for a bit.

Hey Kurt,

I have thought about the off-set bearings. They only give max of 3* though. So even with bushings I am still only gaining 6* of castor when I need 9+*. Also I am trying to avoid a combination of solutions and stick with one solution. On top of this I want to keep as much as possible stock, ie bushings, radius arms, ect. The HF knuckles are obviously not stock and they don't use stock bearings, they actually use a larger stronger bearing. So for me the HF knuckles are looking like the best solution since it allows me to C&T as much as I need. It costs the most but also gains me a fair amount of strength. I retain stock bushings, stock radius arms and end up with better ground clearance under the tie rod. I also have a spare housing just sitting here not being used so to me it is looking like a win win solution.

Cheers

 

[RMP&O]

It's always going to drive like ******** and there is no way to fix it, you should sell it and buy a Jeep... :ar15:

Says the guy who just bought an 80 to race!

 

[concretejungle]

just get the slee arms and be done with it. I had the OME lift for 10 years, it was great. Now i have the slee 4 inch with his arms and it is more better..er!!

 

[krazytoy]

Says the guy who just bought an 80 to race!

It only has to drive good in the dirt, through 3' whoops... At about 60mph!

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Hey Kurt,

I have thought about the off-set bearings. They only give max of 3* though. So even with bushings I am still only gaining 6* of castor when I need 9+*. Also I am trying to avoid a combination of solutions and stick with one solution. On top of this I want to keep as much as possible stock, ie bushings, radius arms, ect. The HF knuckles are obviously not stock and they don't use stock bearings, they actually use a larger stronger bearing. So for me the HF knuckles are looking like the best solution since it allows me to C&T as much as I need. It costs the most but also gains me a fair amount of strength. I retain stock bushings, stock radius arms and end up with better ground clearance under the tie rod. I also have a spare housing just sitting here not being used so to me it is looking like a win win solution.

Cheers

Makes complete sense, a single solution is always easier than 3

Are you sure the HF knuckles use different bearings? I was 90% sure they use the standard 90-97 large trunnion?

 

[RMP&O]

just get the slee arms and be done with it. I had the OME lift for 10 years, it was great. Now i have the slee 4 inch with his arms and it is more better..er!!

So you have no pinion issues or vibes with the lift and Slee arms?

Makes complete sense, a single solution is always easier than 3

Are you sure the HF knuckles use different bearings? I was 90% sure they use the standard 90-97 large trunnion?

No not positive. I just read that whole thread on pirate the other day about the HF knuckles and recall he increased bearing size. I could fully be wrong.


Cheers

 

[concretejungle]

No sir, no issues.... now! I did have to get a DC front shaft and now it's smooth.

BUT... i should say this just for full disclosure because i'm not 100% sure i had to get the DC shaft. So i had a slight vibration before the lift and control arms. I just thought it was a bad front u-joint. So, then i installed the lift and the arms and it was worse. So i went to a local driveshaft shop and had a DC shaft built instead of buying slee or land tank's shafts (too $$ for me). While there i gave him my stock shaft and said to toss it on the balancer so i can use it as a trail spare. He came back around the corner after about 20 minutes and said my stock shaft was so bent that he could not get it to balance without a retube!! I was kind of shocked. So, maybe it was the fact that my front shaft was so far out of balance.

Regardless, i have the DC shaft in now and it rides great!

The castor makes highway driving a pleasure again. Last year I drove 5,500 miles from NC to CA and back to NC. I had the slee 3 degree bushings and j springs and she would drive OK but still wander pretty bad. Especially the mountain passes and big curvy roads. And, i had that damn vibration. Now, it tracks great and i can take my hands off the steering wheel and it will drive pretty straight. Also, no vibes either so i'm happy.

The ride is also more firm but a controlled firm. Less body roll in the turns. I think that is a combination of the OME sport shocks and the springs, but probably more new shocks than anything.

I'm a happy customer.

 

[RMP&O]

No sir, no issues.... now! I did have to get a DC front shaft and now it's smooth.

Ah-ha! So you did have pinion problems, even after the Slee arms. See this is the real problem for me with using the Slee arms, I have no room for a DC front shaft. The clearance between my u-joint at the t-case and my 4L60e trans pan is 1/2" or less. I am pretty sure a DC is going to be to big in there and not clear the trans pan.

BUT... i should say this just for full disclosure because i'm not 100% sure i had to get the DC shaft. So i had a slight vibration before the lift and control arms. I just thought it was a bad front u-joint. So, then i installed the lift and the arms and it was worse. So i went to a local driveshaft shop and had a DC shaft built instead of buying slee or land tank's shafts (too $$ for me). While there i gave him my stock shaft and said to toss it on the balancer so i can use it as a trail spare. He came back around the corner after about 20 minutes and said my stock shaft was so bent that he could not get it to balance without a retube!! I was kind of shocked. So, maybe it was the fact that my front shaft was so far out of balance.

Regardless, i have the DC shaft in now and it rides great!

Glad to hear it is worked out and yes it could fully have been out of balance. I also have a good local drive shaft shop so don't buy those expensive drivelines online. I can get anything made locally including custom shafts for cheap.

From my research I have found there seems to only be a couple degrees that the drive shaft likes to be vibe free. This being a few degrees from the stock angles at the diff and t-case. You get 4* or more out from that and you have vibrations and or noise. I currently have a little noise but no vibes and only in 4wd of course as I am part time 4wd. Any ways, the magic with the driveline seems to be keeping it within 2* of the stock configuration. Now this is a bit of a riddle for me because I do not have a stock trans & t-case. Meaning, my t-case is not sitting exactly the same as a stock t-case which in turn means my angle on the output is not the same. However, I do have a solution to this riddle. When I got the truck and the drop brackets were in I had no vibes or noise on the front drive shaft. So I am putting the drop brackets in as a temp fix and to find out what the angles are on the drive line with them in. At that point I can take these readings and make it the same when I do my work to the front axle.

The castor makes highway driving a pleasure again. Last year I drove 5,500 miles from NC to CA and back to NC. I had the slee 3 degree bushings and j springs and she would drive OK but still wander pretty bad. Especially the mountain passes and big curvy roads. And, i had that damn vibration. Now, it tracks great and i can take my hands off the steering wheel and it will drive pretty straight. Also, no vibes either so i'm happy.

The ride is also more firm but a controlled firm. Less body roll in the turns. I think that is a combination of the OME sport shocks and the springs, but probably more new shocks than anything.

I'm a happy customer.

Exactly!

I drove my buddies (Krazytoy) 80 before and after he did the c&t and set his castor to about 4*. It was night and day and after the c&t his truck drove like a brand new Cruiser, only on 35's!

For those who don't know, castor retains to how the truck drives down the road, if it wanders or tracks straight and true. My truck being 9* out from stock it wanders badly and does not track straight at all. It is actually a real pain in the ******** to drive and not much fun. It makes me appear drunk when I drive it too. Gaining 3* from off-set bushings helped a bit but I am still way out. It drives better but still wanders and tracks like total crap. For me anything above 40mph and it gets bad. It is bearable on smooth pavement but not a lot of that where I live. So in a quick summary, my castor is roughly 4.5-5* negative when it should be 3-4* positive! This is with lift and nothing in there to correct castor. I am after 5* positive since I am running larger than stock tires. If I am able to get 5* positive the truck will handle and drive like a dream, that I have no doubts on. Bad castor can also cause over or under steer.

Another issue when lifting an 80 is bump steer. When you lift the truck the panhard becomes to short. This causes the axle to not be centered under the truck and when you go over a bump the panhard is fighting the steering since it is now to short. This causes bump steer. I had a small bit of bump steer but we put in the Slee (weld in) panhard adjuster and it fixed this problem. We moved the axle about 1/2" back to center once the adjuster was installed.

Anways, thanks man for the info and pictures. I think the Slee arms are a good option to fix everything and I would be game but now am thinking if I went that route and needed a DC front shaft I may be screwed and still have pinion issues after spending the big bucks on the Slee arms. I am pretty confident I can solve all the issues with the HF knuckles and a c&t.

 

[alexbv]

I think the Slee arms are a good option to fix everything and I would be game but now am thinking if I went that route and needed a DC front shaft I may be screwed and still have pinion issues after spending the big bucks on the Slee arms. I am pretty confident I can solve all the issues with the HF knuckles and a c&t.

If you go with the slee arms, it will move the axle exactly so the caster is fixed but by rotating the axle you will definitely need the DC shaft. (It's designed that way)
I went through the same issue chasing vibes and the truck trying to kill me by turning onto incoming traffic because of the caster problem. I have 4" TJM coils which sit very even and ride great but the truck sits about 5.25" taller than stock. Bushings didn't help enough and finally went for the slee caster plates for caster and a customized Tacoma DC shaft for vibe issues.
I think that unless you can do something to fit the DC shaft, the other option is to cut the axle housing ends and turn the housing enough where a stock shaft would sit at the right angle (way over my capabilities)
Some people use spacers between the driveshaft and transfer case flange to help with angles and fit. I wonder if something like that could help you.

 

[concretejungle]

I hope you get it worked out. These trucks are great travelers (other than gas mileage) and getting the suspension dialed in can be a task once we go messing with it. But once it's dialed in you will ask yourself why did i wait this long. And then you will maybe answer like i did... i couldn't afford it! haha

 

[RMP&O]

Well thanks for verifying I will most likely experience drive shaft issues with the Slee arms. They are just not going to work for me then with the very limited amount of room for a DC shaft. Plus adding in a DC shaft adds cost. So it goes from Slee arms being cheaper to them not being cheaper than a c&t with HF knuckles.

A c&t is actually not hard at all. The hardest part being getting a good weld. Well and on an 80 the tie rod to radius arms present a problem. A c&t is real easy on a leaf sprung truck though, like an FJ60.

I will get it worked out, that I am not worried about. And when it gets all worked out I will buy some new shocks to finish it off. Got some other things I plan to do soon too like the Monstaliner and a new air box. The lame K&N filter on the truck keeps getting the MAF dirty.

Cheers