Sears Diehard Platinum 31M issues

[Ducky's Dad]

Sounds to me like these batteries are very sluggish (takes a longer than normal time) to accept an absorption charge,

They are not sluggish, they are just big. Pumping amp hours into a battery is analogous to pumping water into a big bucket. The bigger the bucket, the longer it takes to fill it.

 

[gravedgr]

Here is a battery charger that I use as a floor charger. I've been using it for almost a year now without issue.

http://www.sears.com/diehard-platinum-125a-shelf-battery-charger-engine-starter/p-02871327000P?prdNo=8&blockNo=8&blockType=G8

Works great on Sears DH Platinum, Odyssey, Northstar, Brute Force, etc... All the TPPL type batteries.

I don't care about getting a larger or multi-bank charger. If this one will do the trick, I'm good with $110 (Christmas present to myself).

In one of the other threads on this topic, it was reported by another Toy owner that the factory alternator puts out about 13.9V. I have not tested the alt on my Tundra, but I have read about this Toy characteristic in other forums. Probably accurate reports because there are kits to boost the Toy alt output, but that does not get them anywhere near 14,7V. Try Dirty Parts for the kit or for a referral. I put a 270amp alternator in my Dodge, and I still have to use the Ultimizer to maintain my 2150, mostly because my alternator output is controlled by the ECU and is generally around 14.2-14.3V.

There is a guy on TW that builds custom alternator/wiring kits for people who want to upgrade. I may look at his kit and see what the voltage is, but I'm assuming you're right and the alternator is likely to never provide the right kind of charge.

The full line of chargers was due out in October but they are behind schedule. Most should be out "soon," but the big one that you need will be even later. The old Ultimizers were manufactured by Schumacher to Odyssey specs, but Odyssey would not tell me who is manufacturing the new line. And the big one, for the 2150/PM1, will apparently be built by a third undisclosed company. It will only come in a 1-bank, the 3-banks are history. If you buy one of the old Ultimizers, get the 40amp or 50amp, don't waste money on a smaller one. Be aware that these chargers are big and bulky, apparently use a transformer, and don't stash easily under a seat or in a tool box. The 3-bank units have a lot of heavy cables and clamps that just get in the way, so try for a 1-bank if you can find it. I am guessing that the new line will be fully solid state and will resemble the Ctek units.

The entire line still seems to be buyable here, although I've only gone so far as to adding it to a cart.

This is long term, because that is the way these batteries are built. If you want to keep using these batteries, I think you you need to resign yourself to the maintenance routine. Northstar told me that the Los Angeles Metropolitan Transit Authority (MTA) has been using 2150s in their buses. Those buses run all day, every day, mostly at idle or in low speed traffic, and when they get back to the maintenance yard at the end of their shift, they are hooked up to a maintenance charger, every day. Northstar also told me that MTA is switching over to Northstar AGM Grp 31s, and that Sears has switched their Die Hard Platinum from Odyssey to Northstar manufacture. The DieHard Gold AGM looks like a Northstar, but it is not their top-end battery, so don't let Sears replace your PM1 with a Die Hard Gold. Even if you can't find the receipt, Sears should have the sales record in their computer. Northstar also told me that their 31M does not require the same charging and maintenance routines as does the Odyssey. I have a Northstar 31M in my Tundra, but it's too new to know if it will be better than the Odyssey. So far, so good.

I hear you. Any replacement by Sears would have to be like-for-like or "cost of original purchase" towards two 34M.

The 31M AGM is still just about the best single battery you can get into most vehicles. Depending on your use, you may be happier with a pair of Grp 34s, and that will generally give you slightly more capacity than a single 31, and will give some redundancy if one battery fails. But you will need to wire it for an isolated dual battery system to get those benefits.

Okay. Thanks for the feedback, you guys have been immensely helpful. :wavey:

 

[Naptown]

Quick question, what loads are you running on the battery? I see earlier you listed some bed lights, a winch, and some other items, but are you running a fridge, or something that requires discharging several days without a charge?

 

[4x4junkie]

It's not that they are sluggish, they just want higher amperage/voltage than most automotive systems will put out. If you read the odyssey literature, they are very specific about how to maintain them and recover them from deep discharge.

A battery is only going to accept whatever amperage it'll accept depending on it's state of charge, you cannot force more amps into it without exceeding the voltage limit (14.7 I believe is the stated maximum for normal charging on these). Once the voltage reaches that level, the current then has to be allowed to taper down until it reaches a minimum value before so-called maintenance or "float" charging ensues (this is called "absorption" charging). The biggest charger or alternator in the whole wide world is not going to charge the battery any better than a smaller one capable of reaching 14.7 volts (the smaller charger will just take longer is all).

Any battery is also capable of being fully charged at a voltage of, say 14.2-14.4V, again it just takes longer.
Contrary to what some marketing associates or materials might tell you, there are no miracles taking place inside of any lead-acid battery... They all work the same way, just some work better/more efficiently than others (probably those with less or no recycled lead, if any still exist). IMO, all these special external charging routines and higher-than-normal charge voltages are what become necessary when you have a battery that is reluctant to take a charge under more ordinary conditions.

They are not sluggish, they are just big. Pumping amp hours into a battery is analogous to pumping water into a big bucket. The bigger the bucket, the longer it takes to fill it.

Understood. That would certainly be the case if you are using a very small charger.
However size of the battery becomes irrelevant once the maximum charging voltage is reached... At that point the battery is only going to take in whatever current it can take in, and this is what I'm referring to, they are slower to take in that last little bit than other batteries, even ones of the same or bigger size.
It's about quality of the lead, acid, and whatever other components make up a battery. Lower quality (less-pure) lead-sulfate is not going to revert back to it's lead & sulfuric acid constituents near as quickly or efficiently via charging as something more pure (and is why a vehicle's charging system is typically unable to do the task, there's simply not enough time for it to do so, especially once the sulfate has begun to harden, or crystallize).


Whether I'm right or wrong on this, I do know one thing for sure, I won't be buying one. Too much hassle, too many excuses available a mfgr can make that I didn't charge it properly should the battery ever fail prematurely (and it seems obvious many of them are failing).

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Quote Originally Posted by Ducky's Dad View Post
They are not sluggish, they are just big. Pumping amp hours into a battery is analogous to pumping water into a big bucket. The bigger the bucket, the longer it takes to fill it.
Understood. That would certainly be the case if you are using a very small charger.
However size of the battery becomes irrelevant once the maximum charging voltage is reached... At that point the battery is only going to take in whatever current it can take in, and this is what I'm referring to, they are slower to take in that last little bit than other batteries, even ones of the same or bigger size.
It's about quality of the lead, acid, and whatever other components make up a battery. Lower quality (less-pure) lead-sulfate is not going to revert back to it's lead & sulfuric acid constituents near as quickly or efficiently via charging as something more pure (and is why a vehicle's charging system is typically unable to do the task, there's simply not enough time for it to do so, especially once the sulfate has begun to harden, or crystallize).

Well, that opinion is not consistent with the Odyssey literature, the Odyssey tech support people, the Optima tech support people, my local battery purveyor, or several technical papers that I have actually read, etc.
The lead quality issue is the easiest to dispense with. Lead is lead whether it's virgin or recycled. All major manufacturers claim that they use pure lead, although that lead will be alloyed with other substances to provide the specific characteristics that each manufacturer wants. There is absolutely no evidence that I am aware of that companies like Odyssey or Optima or Northstar compromise their lead content. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it. There was a rumor floating around that Deka (East Penn) used recycled lead and that was the reason for their short warranty and quality issues. The people within the industry with whom I have spoken have assured me that whatever issues Deka may have are not related to the quality of their lead. And Deka is not Odyssey.

Re your statement "Any battery is also capable of being fully charged at a voltage of, say 14.2-14.4V, again it just takes longer," that is only true of a battery in 100% perfect condition. Once the first bit of sulphation sets in, that is no longer a valid statement. And Odyssey tech people (including the founder of the company) are adamant that the 2150/PM1, in particular, needs 14.7V to reach a full charge. I have spoken with tech people at Ctek and at Optimate (not Optima), and they agree. In fact, Optimate tech told me that their Optimate 6 charger, suitable for AGMs, is not quite robust enough for the 2150/PM1 and that they were developing a new version of that charger that would go to 14.7 specifically to support the big Odyssey.

Re your statement "The biggest charger or alternator in the whole wide world is not going to charge the battery any better than a smaller one capable of reaching 14.7 volts (the smaller charger will just take longer is all)," is also not accurate according to both Odyssey tech support and to my own empirical experience. My three most recent chargers are an Optimate 6, a Ctek 7002, and an Odyssey Ultimizer 40amp/3-Bank. I can tell you the the Ctek (14.7) charges the 2150 more effectively (higher OCV after charge) and more efficiently (faster) than does the Optimate 6 (14.6V). I can also tell you that the Ultimizer 40amp (14.7V) is more effective and efficient than either of those two chargers. I have had four of these batteries, and the comparisons of the three chargers are all on the same battery, so no sample variation.

I am not defending Odyssey. I am, however, giving you the best info that is available to me, and I have have spent a lot of time and grief and money figuring all this out. I acquired four new batteries in July and August: one Odyssey 2150 31M as a warranty replacement; one Northstar 31M; two Optima 34M. Each for a different purpose, each for different reasons.

 

[Stumpalump]

Interesting info. I just got used to charging all of my agm or platinum batts every other month or at least the night before I use it. More often in the summer because heat kills them. One vehicle sits in the sun and it has a solar panel. If the OP parks outside I'd suggest putting a small panel on the roof before I bought a $300 charger. It works great. I did loose one under full warranty period before I had solar. The warranty trick is to wait until the free replacement time is up and you are into the pro rated portion of the warrant. If you don't wait they give you a new battery and your old warranty keeps ticking along like nothing happened. If you pay even one month of the pro rated amount your warranty starts over from the beginning. Write the dates with a sharpie on your new batts and tape the paperwork in a zip lock baggy to the side of it. You will be glad you did in three or 4 years when you have no clue what battery came from where.

 

[Naptown]

I think we are going off on a tangent here, but it's my opinion you shouldn't run a Group 31 battery in most vehicles that rely solely on an alternator as means of charging. Unless you are driving a majority of the day, they really do need a shore-power charger, if you are using them in a deep-cycle manner.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

If the OP parks outside I'd suggest putting a small panel on the roof

I recently installed a 2-watt Solargizer panel and controller on my Dodge with a 2150. It's only two watts but my calcs indicate that it will put out enough to overcome the parasitic drain on my battery, even on short days with cloud cover. I'm not trying to charge my battery with this thing, but I do want to keep the battery from running down when the truck is parked for a couple of weeks. The jury is still out on whether it will work well enough.

they really do need a shore-power charger, if you are using them in a deep-cycle manner.

My experience is that they need an occasional dose of shore power even when they are not being deep cycled. I hit mine in alternate months with the Ctek 7002 to top it off, and the other months with the Ultimizer to recondition it. Big pain in the ***.

 

[Naptown]

I recently installed a 2-watt Solargizer panel and controller on my Dodge with a 2150. It's only two watts but my calcs indicate that it will put out enough to overcome the parasitic drain on my battery, even on short days with cloud cover. I'm not trying to charge my battery with this thing, but I do want to keep the battery from running down when the truck is parked for a couple of weeks. The jury is still out on whether it will work well enough.


My experience is that they need an occasional dose of shore power even when they are not being deep cycled. I hit mine in alternate months with the Ctek 7002 to top it off, and the other months with the Ultimizer to recondition it. Big pain in the ***.

Good info!

 

[zelatore]

I put a gp31 sears platinum in my rig earlier this year and although it's still ticking along I'm beginning to wonder for how long. I occasionally run a Nocona genius 26000 on it but I need to double check the specs to see if it actually meets the Odyssey requirements. It's a 26 amp unit but may not hit the right voltage.

I'd sooner buy a different battery than spend $300 on a dedicated charger.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

I'd sooner buy a different battery than spend $300 on a dedicated charger.

I already have the dedicated charger but when I bought a 31M for the Tundra I went with a Northstar. Northstar says their battery will work with the Ultimizer but does not require that charger. Optima told me to not use the big Ultimizer on any of their batteries because the charger would damage their batteries.

 

[gravedgr]

More good conversation. DD, what do you think of the Sears charger that Naptown linked on page 2 of the thread? I'd be willing to spend $110 for a charger a lot more than I'd be willing to spend $300 considering we only have the single 31M.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

what do you think of the Sears charger that Naptown linked on page 2 of the thread?

I can't really tell much from the link to Sears' website. Most of the user reviews complain about cheap construction and plastic bits, so that's a reddish flag. That particular charger seems to be unavailable in California, so I can't go look at one. Our state government, in its infinite wisdom, has actually banned transformer-based chargers because they are not adequately efficient. We can only buy solid state chargers, unless we find old stock somewhere or smuggle a charger in from another state. There is getting to be a booming business here in black market chargers, light bulbs, and solvents. But, I digress. The Sears description says the charger is suitable for AGMs and Diehard Platinum and it looks like it has a specific setting for the DieHard Platinum, so one would think it's OK for a PM1. But one could be disappointed because we know from experience and from the Odyssey approved charger list that an Odyssey/DieHard Platinum in say, Grp 34, needs a different charger than does the same battery in Grp 31. Sears does not have any info there that I can see about charging profiles or reconditioning/desulphation cycles, so that would be a concern. They don't seem to have the owner's manual posted on the site, so might be a good idea to go to a Sears store and peruse the manual and see if it says anything about the PM1, or charging profiles, or desulphation, or who makes it for Sears. If you buy one of these chargers, make sure you can get a refund if it does not work on your battery. You might also call Odyssey and see if they know anything about this charger and can recommend it, since last time I looked it was not on the approved list from Odyssey. Might be a bargain, might be just another charger, can't tell from the info they provide. Be leery of anything the counter guy tells you, because most of them don't know squat about the big Odysseys. Another thing that just occurred to me is that their reference to DieHard Platinum may be about the new, soon-to-be-available Platinum that is being OEM'd for them by Northstar. That 31M does not have the same charging requirements as does the Odyssey. So the short answer is: I don't know what to think of that charger.

 

[gravedgr]

I can't really tell much from the link to Sears' website. Most of the user reviews complain about cheap construction and plastic bits, so that's a reddish flag. That particular charger seems to be unavailable in California, so I can't go look at one. Our state government, in its infinite wisdom, has actually banned transformer-based chargers because they are not adequately efficient. We can only buy solid state chargers, unless we find old stock somewhere or smuggle a charger in from another state. There is getting to be a booming business here in black market chargers, light bulbs, and solvents. But, I digress. The Sears description says the charger is suitable for AGMs and Diehard Platinum and it looks like it has a specific setting for the DieHard Platinum, so one would think it's OK for a PM1. But one could be disappointed because we know from experience and from the Odyssey approved charger list that an Odyssey/DieHard Platinum in say, Grp 34, needs a different charger than does the same battery in Grp 31. Sears does not have any info there that I can see about charging profiles or reconditioning/desulphation cycles, so that would be a concern. They don't seem to have the owner's manual posted on the site, so might be a good idea to go to a Sears store and peruse the manual and see if it says anything about the PM1, or charging profiles, or desulphation, or who makes it for Sears. If you buy one of these chargers, make sure you can get a refund if it does not work on your battery. You might also call Odyssey and see if they know anything about this charger and can recommend it, since last time I looked it was not on the approved list from Odyssey. Might be a bargain, might be just another charger, can't tell from the info they provide. Be leery of anything the counter guy tells you, because most of them don't know squat about the big Odysseys. Another thing that just occurred to me is that their reference to DieHard Platinum may be about the new, soon-to-be-available Platinum that is being OEM'd for them by Northstar. That 31M does not have the same charging requirements as does the Odyssey. So the short answer is: I don't know what to think of that charger.

Fair enough - you provided enough for me to look into it further, thanks!

 

[Airmapper]

I can tell you the the Ctek (14.7) charges the 2150 more effectively (higher OCV after charge) and more efficiently (faster) than does the Optimate 6 (14.6V). I can also tell you that the Ultimizer 40amp (14.7V) is more effective and efficient than either of those two chargers. I have had four of these batteries, and the comparisons of the three chargers are all on the same battery, so no sample variation.

Do you think the CTEK 7002 is adequate for maintaining the 2150 in an application where it is rarely if ever significantly depleted? I just need something that is capable of truly topping it off, throwing it on the charger overnight once a month is no big deal.