Sounds like Stellantis is on the right path.

[rruff]

This thing would ideally have a small engine optimized to run at a steady speed and max output... maybe a gas turbine? The engine does not need to supply as much power as the average demand, but close... like 80% or so.

The driver can select how they want the charging to operate, depending on how they plan to use it. If no long trips are planned the engine stays off and you charge at home. If you set off on a long tow, you start charging immediately and the engine runs at full power the whole time. If it can't keep up, then you'll have to charge as well when you get gas. Optimally you'd want both to be drained at the same time. Or maybe not if you don't want the hassle of electric charging.

Anybody know what the typical average demand would be while towing a big 14,000 lb trailer at 75 mph? 150 hp is probably not far from reality.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

This thing would ideally have a small engine optimized to run at a steady speed and max output... maybe a gas turbine? The engine does not need to supply as much power as the average demand, but close... like 80% or so.

The driver can select how they want the charging to operate, depending on how they plan to use it. If no long trips are planned the engine stays off and you charge at home. If you set off on a long tow, you start charging immediately and the engine runs at full power the whole time. If it can't keep up, then you'll have to charge as well when you get gas. Optimally you'd want both to be drained at the same time. Or maybe not if you don't want the hassle of electric charging.

Anybody know what the typical average demand would be while towing a big 14,000 lb trailer at 75 mph? 150 hp is probably not far from reality.

I grossed 13k a couple years ago hauling soybeans to town with a 50hp tractor. We were a long ways from 75mph (like 68mph less). Power wasn't really an issue but it was almost kinda sporty on gravel road hills with no tongue weight.

 

[rruff]

Did some investigating of towing tests, and I think 1.5 kWh/mi at 75 should about cover it... unless your trailer is a tall brick.

That's 1.9 kWh/minute, or 112 kW, which is 150 hp. It makes sense that they'd use something off the self that is capable of that instead of a new engine, but if this concept becomes popular I think lighter and more efficient engines will be developed.

 

[driveby]

Agreed, whatever is in the parts bin is best. Especially if it’s already NA/CARB etc approved. And whatever will run in the most optimal power band for the least fuel is the right choice.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Did some investigating of towing tests, and I think 1.5 kWh/mi at 75 should about cover it... unless your trailer is a tall brick.

That's 1.9 kWh/minute, or 112 kW, which is 150 hp. It makes sense that they'd use something off the self that is capable of that instead of a new engine, but if this concept becomes popular I think lighter and more efficient engines will be developed.

They have smaller, most if not all are boosted which is probably less than ideal for this kind of drive cycle where the engine may go long periods without running and not really get any better economy because it is in the boost to make spec hp. And then you have intercooler etc to fuss over.

 

[skrypj]

This is a pretty good interview with the propulsion engineer for the RamCharger

 

[nickw]

Agreed, whatever is in the parts bin is best. Especially if it’s already NA/CARB etc approved. And whatever will run in the most optimal power band for the least fuel is the right choice.

It's an engineering trade-off power:weight ratio vs power:fuel ratio...in some cases a heavy, low revving diesel may be the best powerband and least fuel but it could weight 10x what you can afford....or a small high RPM gas engine that gets 10% worse economy but weighs 1/10th is the right call, it's ends up being rocket science to a certain extent....power, engine weight and fuel weight and how they scale given all the other constraints.

 

[life_w_vagabonds]

You are correct: diesel power will be around for decades. The problem is will the government restrict who can obtain it, so you might not be able to purchase for personal use?

I used to think that but a conversation with a petroleum engineer changed my thinking. When a barrel of crude is separated into its constituent parts along with other stuff you get 19 gallons of gasoline and 11 gallons of diesel.
You have to do something with the gasoline:

• you can let it evaporate into the atmosphere
• you can burn it as a waste gas
• you can dump it
  • or
• you can sell it. And you have to keep the cost low enough so someone will buy it.

Eventually someone will develop other uses for gasoline but that will take investment, time, and manpower. Until then gasoline will be available and possibly cheaper and easier to obtain than diesel.

If you run across that guy again, ask him how much electricity is used, from well to dispenser, to put a gallon of gas in a car.

 

[rruff]

If you run across that guy again, ask him how much electricity is used, from well to dispenser, to put a gallon of gas in a car.

That isn't something that anyone is going to just know. Someone may have done the very detailed research and analysis to find this out. And, you really don't care about the amount of electricity (at least I don't), but rather how much energy it takes to produce a gallon of gasoline, and how much of that is converted to locomotion in a vehicle... and compare that to the EV vehicle case.

I don't know if it relates very well to this thread, since the Ram hybrid mostly addresses the current lack of range for an EV that is towing.

I found this article which might give you the info to determine what you want to know. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421513003856

 

[life_w_vagabonds]

That isn't something that anyone is going to just know. Someone may have done the very detailed research and analysis to find this out. And, you really don't care about the amount of electricity (at least I don't), but rather how much energy it takes to produce a gallon of gasoline, and how much of that is converted to locomotion in a vehicle... and compare that to the EV vehicle case.

I don't know if it relates very well to this thread, since the Ram hybrid mostly addresses the current lack of range for an EV that is towing.

I found this article which might give you the info to determine what you want to know. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421513003856

Yep. Then, at most, only 40% of that is used to actually move the car.

 

[rruff]

Yep. Then, at most, only 40% of that is used to actually move the car.

The number is 20% typically... energy moving the car divided by energy in the fuel.

This gives a comparison between overall energy efficiency of a gasoline ICE vs an EV with electricity generated by coal, NG, or hydro. Note that diesel ICEs are a bit more efficient, so will compare more favorably.

The numbers are 31% less if electricity is generated with coal, 50% less for NG, and 75% less with hydro. But I don't think these numbers are that significant, because what we really care about is the overall cost, and other factors like emissions. Besides this greater energy efficiency, the fuels supplying power plants are quite a bit cheaper per unit energy than gasoline or diesel.

Hydro is nice, but we won't generate more than a small fraction using that. Currently solar and wind are the "clean" alternatives, with necessary storage being the most costly aspect.

 

[JaSAn]

If you run across that guy again, ask him how much electricity is used, from well to dispenser, to put a gallon of gas in a car.

What's your point?

Advanced economies encourage companies to specialize: petroleum refiners to extract useful products from crude oil, electric power companies to produce electricity.
Refineries can generate all their own electricity (most produce about 50% from waste gasses) but it would be much less efficient.

And since diesel is used in the production and transportation of almost everything we consume the cost of everything would go up if petroleum companies had to generate all their own electricity.

 

[life_w_vagabonds]

What's your point?

Advanced economies encourage companies to specialize: petroleum refiners to extract useful products from crude oil, electric power companies to produce electricity.
Refineries can generate all their own electricity (most produce about 50% from waste gasses) but it would be much less efficient.

And since diesel is used in the production and transportation of almost everything we consume the cost of everything would go up if petroleum companies had to generate all their own electricity.

Yes, advanced economies should encourage development. Not the doubling and tripling down on outdated technology to ensure the wealth of a small portion of the planet while betraying the rest of humanity.

My point is, drilling, pumping, piping refining, hauling and dispensing gasoline is very energy intensive. Then at least 60% of that “produced” energy is wasted as heat, noise and friction. Then we dump the emissions in the atmosphere and call ourselves advanced.

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

Yes, advanced economies should encourage development. Not the doubling and tripling down on outdated technology to ensure the wealth of a small portion of the planet while betraying the rest of humanity.

My point is, drilling, pumping, piping refining, hauling and dispensing gasoline is very energy intensive. Then at least 60% of that “produced” energy is wasted as heat, noise and friction. Then we dump the emissions in the atmosphere and call ourselves advanced.

I don’t know. My 700hp TRX is pretty advanced in the fun department.

 

[life_w_vagabonds]

I don’t know. My 700hp TRX is pretty advanced in the fun department.

Neat. With 200 lbs more payload capacity than a Subaru Forester.