Sprinter 4WD Conversion Idea, GMT-800 IFS.

locrwln

Expedition Leader
If I could get 9" I would be happy. 3.5 up and 4.5 down would be acceptable (better than the 7" I got now!)
I will be surprised if you can get that much. GM liked 6" on their HD trucks and the front wheel travel is 6". You can get a little better with different shocks and keep in mind that the lower "bumpstop" is actually part of the suspension and should be touching at ride height. Again, watch your CV angles as you cycle the suspension.

By the way, I love the project and look forward to seeing it completed.

Jack
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
I will be surprised if you can get that much. GM liked 6" on their HD trucks and the front wheel travel is 6". You can get a little better with different shocks and keep in mind that the lower "bumpstop" is actually part of the suspension and should be touching at ride height. Again, watch your CV angles as you cycle the suspension.

By the way, I love the project and look forward to seeing it completed.

Jack


The CV angles will tell, but the shock fitment seems to indicate at least 7" is possible. The CV shafts are shorter by at least 1" compared the 1500, which will have some impact.


Weldtec advertises 10-12" with their coilover setup. Also gets away from torsion bars.

Coilovers would be great. It would likely require major surgery on the vans sheetmetal, and add significant cost. For the type of usage my van will see, I don't see the torsion bars causing any issues. If they are getting 10" from what may be mostly stock CVs and Diff, that give me some hope for 8+ inches.


Poking around, I found that there are some upper a arms with camber/caster offset using an eccentric BJ. I am hoping to not need them, but its good to know I have another option if my model isn't accurate enough.
CMS501237_FRO__ra_p.jpg
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
Modeled the sway bar and still beating on the subframe design. The skeleton is done, and now I am adding reinforcement, gussets, etc. The only significant challenge is going to be the drivers side upper diff mount. No easy solutions have presented themselves, but maybe the engine mount can be co-opted somehow. The torque about the diff center is going to be quite significant. Something like 5,000 lb-ft at worst case? I need to crawl under the van and refine the engine mount position with regards to axle centerline. Its about 20F with windchill, so motivation is low...

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Victorian

Approved Vendor : Total Composites
Quite the undertaking! Good luck.
Question: Have you considered buying a cheap rusted out 4x4 Sprinter from GB and swap the parts?
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
Quite the undertaking! Good luck.
Question: Have you considered buying a cheap rusted out 4x4 Sprinter from GB and swap the parts?

Yes. Went pretty far down that route. Unlike you folks in Canada, I would need a 25 year old sprinter. I could have someone else pull the parts, and ship on a pallet, but that's quite expensive. In the end I would still end up with a bunch of well worn parts, many of which are nearly impossible to find new, and cost megabucks used. While I could source most of the wear parts, Oberaigner will only sell parts to countries that received 4x4 sprinters, and requires the correct vin.

In fact while I was in Aus I was a hairs breadth from tearing the bits off a 4x4 sprinter there, and putting them on my van.

In the end my current approach will result in a more capable machine overall (hopefully). Which better ground clearance, easier to source parts, and a much simpler control mechanism (mercedes uses electronic and vacuum control).

For example, I can get a used 242 Tcase for peanuts, wheel bearings are 80$ a side, and suspension parts are stocked all over north america, etc. Mercedes wants 6,800 for a new/reman front differential, 500$+ for a CV axle, etc. I don't really blame them, the 4x4 T1N production numbers were quite low.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
I just ran the model through its travel. 3.75" of droop puts 21 degrees on the CVs, 4.5" of bump is 18 degrees. I need to see what the max steering angle is, but I don't see why 8" shouldn't be possible.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
You can import basicly any vehicle even if it isn't 25 years old. You just can't get them road legal.

In the USA it not possible to import a whole vehicle without permission from the EPA and DOT (to my knowledge). I could apply to have the emissions stuff waived, and lay down a big bond, then provide proof of destruction of the engine and emissions related bits. The rest of the vehicle would have to be imported as off-road usage with a waiver from the DOT. Otherwise I have to prove compliance. If you know of a simple way to get around this requirements I am all ears.

Some importers will import a whole vehicle as "parts". Any auto parts, used engines, or related emissions gear must meet EPA standards. If its used for racing etc, waivers can be applied for, but its not a simple process, and pissing off the EPA/DOT can and does result in crushed vehicles or hefty fines.


There are many gray market imports rolling around. Essentially an importer just says they are bringing over a mixed shipment, and its contains auto parts. No one other than the importer is likely to check. This happens a lot with Minis. Then the mini is sold to someone who transplants a wrecked mini VIN, and calls it a day. Not being a bonded customs house/agent etc, I would need to use a 3rd party for the importing. Most will not do the gray market thing, and if they do there is some risk involved if customs gets wind of it.

The most common method to avoid the import issues is to just cut the entire "front clip" off a vehicle. At that point its considered parts, and an equivalent emissions certificate is all that's needed for the engine.
 

b dkw1

Observer
Its about 20F with windchill, so motivation is low...

I feel your pain LOL. Propane heater in my shop is set to high, otherwise I would get nothing done in the winter. My stepvan conversion won't fit in the shop and will just have to wait for warmer weather.

You can usually gain more travel on bump than you can with droop. The limiting factor is usually tire clearance, not ball joints or CV's.

Not all ball joints are created equal either. Some are built with more angular capacity than others. Inner CV will also be a limiter unless you swap it out for something better. Lots of off-road company's that build suspension kit's for Chevy's have machined adapter rings for the inner CV's to replace the stock inners with 930's or 934's which will give a lot more angular movement.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
Changing direction a little bit just to take a brake from 3D problem solving. I am running a few simulations of worst case loading. Trying to get an idea if my design and material thickness choices are viable. Here I am simulating a worst case scenario loading of one tire in the lateral direction. 10klbs applied to the wheel edge away away from the vehicles centerline. Everything in red is under the yield strength of mild steel, Obviously some corners are artifacts introduced by sharp edges in the model. However there are areas, especially around the bump stop and upper Arm supports that need some reinforcement. Obviously before I complete the model I am going to add dozens of fillets to sharp corners etc. Dealing with them within the part sketches is a pain, so I like to add them to the completed bodies/solids at the very end.

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luthj

Engineer In Residence
Anyone have suggestions on typical loads for diff mounts? Transmitted torque numbers would work as well. The NP242 can handle about 1500ft-lbs of input torque. Multiple that times low range 2.7, then times 3.73 gears yields a whopping 15,000 lb-ft of output torque... Which is obviously doesn't pass the sanity test. 5,500lb-ft is may be more than my current rear mount can handle. I need to account for the bolt clamping force still.

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I think this Diff has a yoke for 1410 UJ. Which is rated at 1500ft-lb for short bursts. So 1500x3.73 is 5,600 ft-lbs at the CVs. Reaction forces would be about 40% higher due to level arms, so about 7,800lbs at the mounts worst case? That is pretty significant. I may need to rethink forward mount ideas.
 
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luthj

Engineer In Residence
Still doing some basic math to confirm performance. For giggles here is the turning specs from the van and donor suburban.

Suburban
WB=130"
Turning Radius=22'
Calculated steering angle =29 deg

Sprinter
WB=140"
TR=22'
Calculated steering angle =32 deg

With 29 degrees on the sprinter, and a slightly wider front track, the turning radius is 24ft. This is calculated (and measured) to the front outer wheel. Assuming I can extract the same wheel angle on the sprinter as the Suburban had of course. An extra 2ft larger turning radius seems pretty reasonable really.
 

Len.Barron

Observer
I think this Diff has a yoke for 1410 UJ. Which is rated at 1500ft-lb for short bursts. So 1500x3.73 is 5,600 ft-lbs at the CVs. Reaction forces would be about 40% higher due to level arms, so about 7,800lbs at the mounts worst case? That is pretty significant. I may need to rethink forward mount ideas.
I don't think any suburban came with 1410 ujoints and I think only the 2500hd and up trucks came with 1410 on the rear shaft only. Worth a double check on that.
 

dman93

Adventurer
Just curious, what Factor of Safety are you using for the subframe and other fab parts that will see dynamic loads?
 

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