TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

[biotect]

His safas,

Sorry, like you, my time is limited. I'll try do another summary of TerraLiner capabilities and specifications a bit further along, in a few weeks once I have the time available.

Most side-awnings for motorhomes are designed to automatically retract at 20 mph or less, i.e. 32.2 kmh. However, in the 28 pages I've stated that instead, for complete solar functionality, I think the TerraLiner needs to have awnings that retract only when the windspeed hits 40 mph and above, or 64 kmh. That's a much, much higher windspeed than any currently available motorhome awnings can handle. Just read those 28 pages again, although granted, right now they are not very readable....:sombrero:

Which is why I suggested to Librannser that instead of a standard motorhome awning, the TerraLiner will need a "retractable patio roof covering system", of the kind that can handle much stronger wind speeds.

Much more robust awning systems exist than those designed for use only in motorhomes. See for instance the following videos, which should provide some idea of what these are like:



[video=youtube;2BtXWuavO04]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BtXWuavO04 [/video]


In these videos the awning structure is securely anchored to the ground by vertical posts at the corners. The whole thing is a very robust frame, as opposed to the awnings used in motorhomes, where everything is cantilevered and is not very secure, at least not against high winds. So because the TerraLiner will have drop-down decks in any case, a very robust similar structure should be possible, with the corners of the awning anchored on the corners of the TerraLiner's drop-down decks via vertical posts. Without such drop-down decks, however, no such anchoring is possible, and we are back in the world of typical motorhome awnings that need to automatically close at 32 kmh or less, otherwise they suffer wind damage. Many motorhome awnings will allow one to adjust the setting on the windspeed sensor, the setting at which the awning automatically closes. But the factory-provided "recommended" setting is typically 18 mph, or 29 kmh.

Please note that the kind of awning system that I am proposing does not exist yet, so I can't point to visual examples of anything even remotely like it already implemented. The engineering to create such an awning system, to unfold and lock into place in concert with a drop-down deck, is fairly intense, and that's what we are working on right now. This is the "cutting edge" of TerraLiner design, what we are working on right now.

A thought just occurred to me: it's probably better to describe all of this as a "collapsible pergola system" or "retractable pergola system", as opposed to an awning system. Because that's what we are actually designing: a pergola that opens up and locks firmly into place when a side-deck drops down, a pergola structure that will then support the retractable awning fabric, with embedded flexible solar cells. We are working on a "retractable pergola system" that can support awning fabric covered with solar cells, and that can remain open even in reasonably high winds, up to 40 mph.

"Pergola" and/or "Pergola Retratille" seems to be the most useful web-search and YouTube search keywords, because these keywords open up all the Italian videos and videos about this kind of awning. This kind of awning seems to be almost exclusively manufactured in Italy.



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Now at present, in this thread, let's keep the discussion focused on power.

At present, again, the three questions in play are:


1. Does it make sense for the TerraLiner to carry fuel cells in addition to a lith-ion battery bank? See my post above for this question elaborated in detail.

2. What exactly is a "fuel cell hybrid bus"? How might it prove superior to an ordinary diesel bus? How might it prove superior to a "lith-ion battery bank hybrid bus", of the kind that MAN makes, i.e. its "Lion City hybrid" line of buses?

3. Could all of the TerraLiner's batteries be condensed into a single, unified loth-ion battery bank, as proposed by campo? Could a single lith-ion battery pack serve to start the two diesel generators, as well as power camper systems? Or would it still be better for the diesel generators to have their own, separate start-up batteries?


Let's try to focus on these three questions, and only these three questions, in the next 10 or 20 posts or so.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[thjakits]

Wow Bio!

I think you mistook/read something on my last post.

NO - I don't read The Economist, neither the rightwing rag and I am generally lost when it comes to discuss philosophy, prose, literature.

On forums like this I want to find experience and data from others and post either common sense (as I see it...) or REAL personal experience.

I challenge others posts when the data seems off....

I generally refrain from name calling, but don't hesitate to refute OBVIOUS erroneous data and call the poster on it....


Now I REALLY would like you to elaborate where - according to you - I went off my proven track - prose wise.... - in my last post!

If you prefer - do it by PM..

cheers,

thjakits

 

[Iain_U1250]

Just done a few simple calculations on your power requirements, using some very basic assumptions based on what I have read over the past 192 pages


Assuming you are going the maximum legal dimensions for a vehicle ( 2.4m wide x 4.5m high) and an all up weight of 30 tons ( 8x8) because of all the extra systems you have to carry around, anything smaller will just not fit in.

Using the simple formula, which give you the power needed to drive on a good, perfectly flat tar road, road tyres pumped up to the maximum and with no headwinds, you need around 175kW at the wheels, and given you have an 8x8, unless you go with direct drive on each wheel, the transmission losses around at least 30%, so your hybrid system will need 225kw just to keep moving. If you actually want to accelerate and drive up a hill, with a headwind, then double that to around 450kW ( and it will a bit of a slug with so little power).

Looks to me like you are a factor of 10 out on your power requirement for your battery bank - a 450kW battery will last an hour, so 10 hours of realistic driving ( up and down hills, accelerating now and again will require around 2mW. Using an energy density of 100Wh/kg ( current LiFePO4 battery), you need 20 tons of battery, and you can't physically fit or carry that amount of weight and still have space for that. So, allowing for only one hour of "stealth driving" you need 2 tons of batteries, which in a not unrealistic amount, and that will take up around 1.5m3 of space given today's LiFePO4 batteries, you then need to have a genset with a proper sound proof enclosures if you are aim for a 50dB noise limit ( which is not very good given background noise in the Outback is around 25 dB). We have had a 50dB limitation than on some of our well sites and had to build a genset enclosure that is 4m long x 1.8m high x 2m wide with all the attenuation for the exhaust, intake, radiator etc.for a 100kW genset in order to achieve this. Boats have a great advantage of being able to use the outside water for cooling and exhaust attenuation, so the package will be a lot smaller than in a truck.

This is a fair bit of you usable truck space gone. Add the extra batteries, power distribution, and inverters, fuel tanks, water tanks, all of the roll out awnings, and the various other "glamping" add-ons and it looks like you might end up sleeping in a roof top tent on top of the truck as the inside is full

 

[biotect]

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1. TerraLiner Dimensions


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Hi Ian,

Actually, best instead to calculate 21 - 23 tons, with 24 tons as an absolute maximum, for a 6x6 that's 12 m long, 4 m high (the legal limit in Europe and elsewhere; perhaps Australia allows 4.5 m?), and 2.55 m wide.

The TerraLiner absolutely will not be an 8x8. And 8x8 is a completely different kind of vehicle than a 6x6, with the MAN SX-45 typically weighing 13 to 21 tons just for the empty vehicle alone. It's designed to carry a payload of 14 - 16 tons, so the total laden weight of an SX-45 might be as high as 37 tons -- see http://www.military-today.com/trucks/man_sx45.htm . This is simply not necessary, and in post #1945 below I will demonstrate using prior analogous precedents why this is not necessary, and why your 30 ton guestimate is a wild exaggeration.

Remember, the TerraLine will also be towing a "TOAD garage", so a great deal of stuff will be able to go in there, and does not have to go in the main vehicle. The legal length limit for a vehicle + drawbar trailer is 18.75 m. The following PDFs are perhaps the most useful in summarizing size limits for various countries. The first is a table of permissible coach-lengths in Europe:






In Europe the maximum length is usually 15 m, but an RV would not necessarily be classified as a coach or a bus. According to egn, the maximum length for RV motorhomes in Germany is 12.5 m, and Germany tends to set the standard for such things in Europe. So why 12 m? Well, because the UK seems to set a 12 m length limit on lorries or trucks:







Also, because for my purposes it's better for the "TOAD garage" to be a bit longer, and the TerraLiner itself is a bit shorter. If the TerraLiner is 12 m instead of 12.5, then the TOAD garage can be 5.75 m, with a 1 m gap between the two. Semi-trailers can have a cab/trailer gap as small as 18 inches, so I figure that 1 m should suffice, and perhaps an even narrower gap might be possible. A narrower gap might also be desirable, from the point of view of aerodynamics -- see http://solutions.letstruck.com/Answers/View/8524/optimum+"gap"+between+rear+of+cab+and+front+of+trailer .

In the PDF immediately above note that in Britain, the land of double-decker buses, there is no legal height limit. But in other European countries there is, so 4 m must be the height limit. The following is another very useful PDF, produced by the International Transport Forum, that summarizes maximum permissible lengths of trucks in Europe, including "road train" combis of the kind that I am envisioning, where the length limit is almost always 18.75 m -- see http://www.internationaltransportforum.org/IntOrg/road/dimensions.html :







The following is an even more detailed table for a wider range of countries, produced by the IRU, the International Road Transport Union -- see https://www.iru.org/en_index :









These are the kinds of materials that I have been using when setting the TerraLiner's dimensions. I have not been consulting just my own experience with one particular country, but rather, right from the beginning I've been keenly interested in global standards and limits. Because if the TerraLiner wants to travel globally, then global size limits that matter, not just legal limits in Australia......:sombrero:


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And finally, to round things out, here is a very nicely illustrated PDF produced by Texas:







The United States will not be the problem, because American size limits are almost always bigger than European size limits. In the United States 3-axle trucks and motorhomes can be 45 feet long, or 13.72 m, and truck/trailer combinations can be up to 65 feet long, or 19.8 m.

For additional info, also see http://www.poferrymasters.com/tatasteel/tis-0012-axle-loads-and-weight-distribution-issue-1.pdf , http://international.fhwa.dot.gov/pubs/pl07002/vsw_eu07.pdf , http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/vehicles/doc/abnormal_transport_guidelines_en.pdf , http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/road/events/doc/2009_06_24/2009_gigaliners_workshop_acea.pdf , http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Vehicle Std Leg/Vehicle regs/Weights_Dimensions_Leaflet.pdf , and http://nacto.org/docs/usdg/vehicle_standards_information_nsw.pdf .



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2. The TerraLiner is not designed for the typical ExPo Participant


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Now yes, specifying a TerraLiner length of 12 m is a revision that has occurred over the past 6 months. The TerraLiner will now be 12 m long, instead of 10.5 or 10.75 m long. I am now imagining the TerraLiner as a mobile beach house that sojourns, as opposed to a more "traditional" sort of large expedition vehicle that both sojourns and explores. Ergo, the 10.75 m length-limit no longer seems so important. Again, the TOAD will do the exploring, not the TerraLiner. The TerraLiner will function much like a Class-A motorhome in the United States, and will serve as a "base camp" from which exploring will occur via the TOAD and the RIB.

Put another way, the TerraLiner is not the kind of vehicle that a middle-aged person age 30 - 55 would want to buy, i.e. someone who has just 2 years to zip around the world, accumulating as many countries as possible. Put even more forcefully, the TerraLiner is absolutely not designed for the typical middle-aged ExPo participant. It will not be a mid-size vehicle that strikes the optimum compromise between "sojourning" and "exploring" that a middle-aged participant here on ExPo typically needs. The TerraLiner is not designed for middle-aged people who still have to work, whose financial resources are rather limited, and whose leisure time is also limited. If you are reading this, and you are middle-aged, the TerraLiner is probably not designed for you.

To be even more blunt: if you are a typical middle-aged ExPo participant, as a designer I am absolutely not "working" for you, and your needs and concerns. Thread participants who are middle-aged need to become very clear about this, and they need to accept this. The TerraLiner will not be "the ultimate motorhome", because there is no such thing. For the typical middle-aged person, the TerraLiner will absolutely not be their ultimate globally-capable motorhome, because they won't have the budget for it, nor the leisure time available to justify it, and make proper use of it.

Instead, the TerraLiner is being designed for the same market that in the United States is served by big, 45-foot (13.71 m) Class-A motorhomes: active and adventurous retired couples who are wealthy, who have considerable financial resources, and who have considerable time on their hands. If you fit this description, then the TerraLiner is being designed for you, and you alone. And the TerraLiner is being designed for no-one else. The TerraLiner's goal is to be "the ultimate motorhome" for this specific age cohort, and for no other age-cohorts. The TerraLiner's goal is not to be the "the ultimate motorhome" in any kind of vague and general sense. And all the more so, the TerraLiner's goal is not to be "the ultimate globally capable motorhome" for the typical middle-aged ExPo participant.

Sorry for the repetition, but it was deliberate, so that this really does finally sink in.


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3. The Enormous Size of the American market for Class A motorhomes


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Now there most certainly is a market for such large vehicles in the United States, otherwise Newell would not be producing more than 30 a year, each one costing well over one million USD, and almost all of them 45 feet long, or 13.72 m. Newell is not alone: Liberty, Millennium, Featherlite, and Marathon also produce "premium" or "luxury" Class A motorhomes that are 45 feet long, based on a Prevost chassis -- see http://motorhome.prevostcar.com/where-buy . Furthermore, Tiffin (23.1 % market share), Winnebago (20 % market share), Fleetwood (15.6% market share), Monaco, Newmar, etc. all produce large Class A motorhomes that are none too shabby either -- see http://www.frvta.org/newsletter/2012/Apr2012.pdf .

In fact, the Class A market segment is the largest market segment for motorhomes in the United States, not the smallest. It is the largest market segment not only in terms of total sales volume, expressed in dollar terms; and not just in terms of profitability. The Class A market segment also the largest simply in terms of number of individual units shipped. Yes, that's right: the Class A motorhome market segment in the United State is the largest in terms of actual number of vehicles sold per annum.

There are good graphs summarizing the size of the American RV industry at http://www.statista.com/topics/1319/camping-and-recreational-vehicles/ , http://www.statista.com/statistics/...wholesale-shipments-of-recreational-vehicles/ , and http://www.statista.com/statistics/252752/wholesale-shipments-of-recreational-vehicles-in-the-us/. The RV industry in the United States reached a peak of 14.73 billion USD sales per annum in 2006; collapsed to just 5.5 billion USD per annum in 2009; and has since rebounded to 12.billion per annum in 2013, with 365,00 units sold -- see http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/05/31/recovery-boomers-send-rv-sales-roaring-back , http://www.rvbusiness.com/tag/rv-sales/ , and http://fortune.com/2014/08/14/winnebago-rolls-again/. Sales have significantly recovered in the UK, too, although I am not certain about continental Europe -- see http://www.caravantimes.co.uk/news/...ions-increase-reported-for-2014-$21385070.htm .

To gain a statistical sense of the comparative size of the American Class A market in particular, take a look at the data table for shipments in 2015 found on the very useful RVIA (Recreational Vehicle Industry Assocation), at http://www.rvia.org/?esid=mdandt and http://www.rvia.org/?ESID=shipments . In January, February, March, and April of this year, between 1,800 - 2,000 Class A Motorhomes were sold per month. You might think that much smaller Class B motorhomes would be more popular, but they are not: only 300 units were shipped per month. And mid-sized Class C motorhomes could only be described as perhaps as popular as Class A motorhomes, and no more popular, with statistics in 2015 that are similar.

For readers not familiar with the distinction between Class A, Class B, and Class C motorhomes, see the excellent summaries at https://www.rv.org/class_A.htm , https://www.rv.org/class_B.htm , https://www.rv.org/class_C.htm , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recreational_vehicles , http://www.newmarcorp.com/blog/post...between-class-class-b-and-class-c-motorhomes/ , http://philip.greenspun.com/materialism/motorhomes/ , and http://haw-creek.com/class-a-motorhomes/ . This may seem counter-intuitive, but Class B actually tends to be the smallest type of motorhome, whereas Class C is more mid-size. The following article describes motorhomes classes descending according to size, and runs Class A, then Class C, then Class B -- see http://rv-roadtrips.thefuntimesguide.com/2011/01/rv_class.php . Here is a good video that explains the difference:






The RVIA has produced a 2014 Industry Profile, but one needs to be a RVIA member to access it -- see http://www.rvia.org/?ESID=indprofile2010 and http://www.rvia.org/unipop.cfm?v=3&OID=09REVR_W1&CC=1 . However, a multi-year summary of the year-end review is available to the general public, and can be found at http://www.rvia.org/?ESID=YE20072010 and http://www.rvia.org/UniPop.cfm?v=2&OID=6795&CC=4128 :







In this summary of sales statistics, it's clear that in every year and every month, from 2007 to 2015, Class A motorhomes vastly out-sell the smallest-size Class B motorhomes. And in most months (although not all) they outsell mid-sized Class C motorhomes. In 2007 Class A motorhomes outsold Class C motorhomes by roughly double in terms of number of units shipped. While in 2013 and 2014 Class A's outsold Class C's by roughly 20 % in most months; in some months there was parity; and in just a few months Class B's outsold Class A's.

For additional historical RV sales statistics and information, also see http://www.rvia.org/?ESID=histglance , http://www.rvia.org/?ESID=preleases&PRID=1667&SR=1 , http://www.rvia.org/?ESID=indicators , and http://www.rvia.org . And for detailed, month-by-month RV sales reports, that break things down in terms of units shipped by motorhome class A/B/C, see http://www.rvia.org/?ESID=currentmonth , http://www.rvia.org/UniPop.cfm?v=2&OID=6806&CC=2016 , http://www.rvia.org/UniPop.cfm?v=2&OID=6770&CC=2016 , http://www.rvia.org/UniPop.cfm?v=2&OID=6756&CC=2016 , http://www.rvia.org/UniPop.cfm?v=2&OID=6718&CC=2016 , etc. etc.

This kind of hard information does exist, it's available on the web, but one just needs to know where to look.....:sombrero:

Those on ExPo who are against "size", need to confront such basic statistical facts. These are facts, not opinions, and what I am offering here is argument, and not mere rhetoric. The above table is an excellent example of hard data. Now granted, the market is not always right. But it never fails to amaze me how market "voting" is often at odds with what engineers or various industry insiders think consumers "should" want instead. "Build-it-yourself" types (i.e. many ExPo participants) also tend to have a warped or skewed vision of what the motorhome market is actually like. Build-it-yourself types tend to be very anti-large-size-motorhome, and anti-Class-A. As such, they tend to be heavily biased in favor of smaller motorhomes, hence tending to assume that the overall market reflects their preferences. It absolutely does not, and it is a complete and total mistake to think that it does.

Just adding up month-by-month Class A sales figures for 2014, we get 21,800 vehicles sold.

21,800 Class-A vehicles is a lot of very big motorhomes. Even if the market for the TerraLiner -- the market for a globally capable Class-A motorhome -- were just 10 % of that, there would still be a market for 2,180 TerraLiners per annum. And even if the TerraLiner's market were just 1 % of that, there would still be a market for 218 TerraLiners per annum. Newell does a good business selling less than 50 premium-luxury Class A coaches per annum. So it seems to me that a large, Class-A sized, globally capable TerraLiner would in fact have a market. Just as long as the logistics were thought through in great detail, and it would be made clear that the TerraLiner is for sojourning, while the TOAD is for exploring.


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4. The TerraLiner will be for Sojourning, the TOAD for exploring


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So to repeat: the TerraLiner is absolutely not intended to combine sojourning and exploring in a single vehicle, as per the typical mid-size expedition motorhome compromise. The TerraLiner will drive from base-camp A to base-camp B, where it will then stay put and fixed, for months. And the TerraLiner's average glamping time in one spot will be 2- 3 months, and not 2 - 3 weeks, let alone 2 - 3 days. The TerraLiner will slow travel, it will not fast travel, and those looking for design inspiration for a zippy mid-sized vehicle that can manically fast-travel, covering one country every 15 days, need to look elsewhere. They will not find their dreams or their ideals realized in this thread.

Those who want to protest at this point that I am "softening" the TerraLiner design parameters, should think again. I am not, and it is a complete mistake to think that I am. The TerraLiner will still need to be able to glamp coastal farmland, and so the TerraLiner will still need to be a 6x6. The TerraLiner will still need some degree of 6x6 off-road capability, such that it can traverse the last 100 - 500 meters in order to get to the campsite in the middle of a farmer's field. The TerraLiner will also need to be able to lower tire pressure and drive onto a beach, in order to launch a RIB equipped with Sea Legs. There is no network of RV parks that can accommodate Class-A motorhomes in the Second and Third World, equivalent to the huge networks of RV parks in the United States or Europe. So the substitute solution must be glamping on farmland. So too, the TerraLiner will still want to travel bad, corrugated gravel roads like the Tanami road in Australia, so big Michelin XZL tires (or something similar, perhaps designed more for road and/or sand travel), and a robust chassis, remain basic requirements. Furthermore, a fully integrated interior design is still a requirement, and thjakits is simply wrong: this kind of long, fully integrated camper shell can only be built on top of a rigid, comparatively torsion-free frame.

Those who think that I have been changing the TerraLiner design specifications also need to think again. I have not. Rather, the thing that is actually changing, is their understanding of what the TerraLiner will be, and their gradual realization that the TerraLiner will absolutely not be the mid-sized expedition motorhome of their dreams. The TerraLiner will not be their ultimate globally capable motorhome, and it will not be a motorhome designed to suit their middle-aged needs, preferences, and budget. I have been saying this all along, right from the beginning. But some participants are just plain stubborn and mentally obtuse, and they just refuse to read the words that I have committed to print. Or, they choose to interpret my words through the filter of their middle-aged preconceptions of what an "ultimate motorhome" should be like, for them.

Such thread participants need to become clear about something very important and fundamental: the basic fact that I am absolutely not designing the TerraLiner for them. And I have never been designing the TerraLiner for them, right from the start.

Hope that did not sound too aggressive or vehement. But sometimes a bit of "vehemence" is necessary, in order to snap people out of a state of delusion or misconception. In the next week or so I will post a much longer series that elaborates at length on all of these points. This was merely a very condensed version of something that will run about 2 or 3 pages, or 20 - 30 posts. In other words, it will be a reasonably long posting series, and I don't have time to throw it up on the thread today or tomorrow. thjakits, you will just have to be patient; posting everything by tonight "PM" is simply not feasible. But once posted, it should clarify matters even further.

Just always keep one thing in mind: if you are a typical ExPo participant, I am probably not designing for you. The statistical probability that I am designing for you is very low. But just because I am not designing for you, does not mean that I am designing for nobody, or for a non-existent market. You are not everyone, and at least 30 people a year will buy big Newell motorhomes that you personally cannot afford. Again, this may sound harsh, but there it is. The market for big Class A motorhomes in the United States is simply huge, it is not small, and it stands to reason that the market for a globally-capable equivalent should be reasonably big, too.

Last but not least, I am designing the TerraLiner as a high-specification prototype, one that pushes everything as far as it can go. Or almost everything: as already explained, I want to remain conservative when it comes to basic structural engineering. However, in actual semi-mass-production, the TerraLiner's design concepts and engineering innovations would then be "scaled back" and made more economical, so that what began as a prototype costing 2 or 3 million, might be recalibrated as a globally-capable Class A costing 500,000 to 1,000,000.


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5. More Realistic Design Parameters for TerraLiner Power Calculations: Mañana


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In the meantime, Ian, when calculating TerraLiner power requirements, please calculate for a 6x6 that's 12 m long, 4 m high, 2.55 m wide, and that weighs 21 - 23 tons; towing a three-axled drawbar trailer that's about 5.75 m long. The latter will be a fully enclosed "TOAD garage" that will sit on top of a trailer along the lines of the Oshkosh M1076 -- see posts #876 to #888, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1727008#post1727008 and following.

Regarding weight specifically, please read up a bit in the thread regarding Mañana, a high-spec fully-integrated motorhome built on top of a MAN chassis, that weighed about 18.6 tons overall -- see post #749 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1673891#post1673891 :







I think your estimate of weight is wildly exaggerated, perhaps because you have no feeling for what has been done before in this size range, and what is possible. If Mañana can be 10.74 m long and weigh 18.6 tons, then I see no reason why a 12 m TerraLiner could not weigh 21 - 23 tons, even when drop-down decks and slide-outs are included, which Mañana did not have. 24 tons would be the conceivable maximum, but 30 tons is quite honestly ridiculous. Your 30-ton guestimate is an extreme exaggeration.

Have you actually read the entire thread? Did you read about Mañana, and appreciate the significance of Mañana as a "touchstone" or primary point of reference for the TerraLiner design process?


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6. Blue Thunder


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Another design touchstone has been egn's Blue Thunder, which unlike Mañana, was built on a torsion-free MAN KAT chassis, so a chassis that's a bit heavier. egn's vehicle is shorter, just 9.5 m long, and it's even lighter, 16.6 tons unladen, and 18 tons fully laden -- see http://www.enfatec.de/index.php?id=54 and https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...://www.enfatec.de/index.php?id=54&prev=search . In German, "Zulässige Gesamtmasse" or "Zu. Gesamtmasse" translates as "Total laden weight" or "Maximum laden mass":








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If we scale up Blue Thunder in a linear way, adding roughly another 27 % for length, to get 12 m, then scaling up the equivalent in weight, we get a figure of 22.86 tons. Of course Blue Thunder does not have slide-outs or drop-down decks either. But on the other hand, as already suggested earlier in the thread, the heavy torsion-free frame of a MAN KAT would probably be too heavy for the TerraLiner. What the TerraLiner needs is not the MAN KAT or SX-44 torsion-free ladder frame, but rather, it needs a lighter torsion-free frame custom-built by either MAN or Astra-IVECO; a frame built to suit the actual proposed weight of the TerraLiner's camper body.


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7. The DoLeoni MAN-KAT


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I would also like to cite the DoLeoni MAN-KAT here, because like egn's Blue Thunder, it too has a torsion-free frame. But unfortunately the websites describing the Doleoni MAN KAT are systematically elusive regarding weight and dimensions -- see http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/man-kat-1-a1/ , http://www.doleoni.com/wp/#portfolio , and http://www.expedition-trucks.com/brokers/man-kat-6x6-expedition-truck . They'll tell you just about everything else about this vehicle; just not how long it is, or how much it weighs. But scaling the drawings, if we assume that's its roughly 3.95 or 4 m high, then it's considerably longer than egn's Blue Thunder, probably somewhere between 10.5 to 10.9 m, including the spare tires on the back:









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It would be really good to know the length and weight of this vehicle, precisely because it does seem at least a meter longer than egn's Blue Thunder. As such, it might provide an even more accurate rough-ball-park figure for the TerraLiner's eventual weight. If anyone reading this knows the exact dimensions and weight of the DoLeoni MAN KAT, please post!


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8. The UniCat 8x8


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Here are a few more examples. It's difficult to find 12 m long expedition motorhomes on the web, especially with length and weight information clearly provided. Actionmobil has built some very large expedition motorhomes in the past, but Actionmobil is not as generous with detailed information as UniCat. UniCat has built at least one much larger motorhome, 12.02 m long, based on an 8x8, a motorhome that has a slide-out bedroom in back -- see http://www.unicat.com/en/info/MXXL24AH-MAN8x8-sh.php , http://www.unicat.com/pdf/MXXL24AH-MAN8x8-sh-en.pdf , http://www.unicat.com/pdf/UNICAT-MXXL24AH-MAN8x8-en-es.pdf , and http://www.unicat.com/video/UNICAT-MXXL24AH.mov :








[video=youtube;-ZDyEWaHI7o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZDyEWaHI7o [/video]



Again, this vehicle is not completely analogous to the TerraLiner, because it's an 8x8, so one has to factor in the extra weight for 8x8 AWD. But according to the product literature, even this motorhome weighs only 26,000 kg, or 26 tons, and not 30 tons.


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10. Armadillo


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Then there are the 8x8 motorhomes made by Armadillo. Detailed information about all Armadillo models is provided in "configuration tables", but the tables are PNG documents in Chinese (a language that I don't speak), documents that cannot be run through Google translate -- see https://translate.googleusercontent...v.com/&usg=ALkJrhjnHXkSCBaEUuw6SodZWvE7lp6rTA , https://translate.googleusercontent...t.aspx&usg=ALkJrhiLzc6ZYoxyOco-frIz6SNFMlETtA , https://translate.googleusercontent...tID=33&usg=ALkJrhjCVHCs2CMiyWKOgmb_Qaj0cBjQzg , https://translate.googleusercontent...tID=34&usg=ALkJrhhdim4oWqPtRqEIT_DIVajyiPvhHQ , https://translate.googleusercontent...tID=22&usg=ALkJrhiTuD4wL_K93k3Z08QPDB3F5MbTFw , https://translate.googleusercontent...ctID=7&usg=ALkJrhj1diSqnJ-AAqxhZZrQvcbBGy3X1A , and https://translate.googleusercontent...ctID=4&usg=ALkJrhiN6HJ59qoFc7ZdG6OgeAtP78CwVA . If I had an OCR scanner, I'd just print out the configuration tables and pass them through the scanner, but alas I don't....

Even still, it's easy enough to guess from the information provided that the first vehicle referenced is described in the first line of its configuration table as an 8x8 that is 10.69 m long, x 2.775 m wide, x 3.945 m high; and that the figure provided in the fourth line, 19,000, is the gross weight in kg. In other words, 19 tons. If one puts "kg" into Google translate, the Chinese equivalent in simplified characters is "公斤", and these are in fact the characters that follow 19,000 expressed in Roman numerals.

Armadillo also sells a smaller 8x8 that's 10.45 m long x 2.495 m wide x 3.750 m wide, but still weighs 19 tons, and two earlier discontinued models are 19.5 tons and 19.9 tons. So 20 tons. These are all built on a MAN TGS 8x8 chassis, which again would include the weight of a very heavy AWD transmission that drives 4 axles. And so they're not quite parallel to a 6x6 TerraLiner hybrid. On the other hand, the TGS has a frame that twists, and is not rigid. If we then scale up the first vehicle mentioned, 10.69 m long, to 12 m, it should weigh about 21.3 tons.


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11. Newell


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Finally, to cite another example. I have repeatedly mentioned Newell's 45 foot coaches as a design precedent. They are longer than the TerraLiner: at 45 feet or 13.72 m, they will be 1.72 m longer. And they have four slide-outs, whereas the TerraLiner will have three:










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These are some images of the Newell factory in Oklahoma:







And some images of the framing that surrounds Newell's Quad Slide-Outs:







The first image below is a 2008 Newell Quad Slide-Out, with a matching Renegade Stacker trailer -- see http://www.bus-stuff.com/2008NewellMCCAIN.htm . And the second is a very early model (number 191) Newel Coach -- see http://caravancampingsale.com/custom-built-motor-homes-newell-private-coach/ :







Yes, I posted these images of Newells pulling trailers to underscore a point: I really am designing something along these lines. Just imagine the undercarriage with ample 60 cm clearance, and big Michelin XZL tires, and you have in essence the basic format of the TerraLiner.

Will saying that make some participants in this thread unhappy? I expect that it will. But nonetheless, that's what I am now designing. My earlier designs were more modes: a 10.5 m long, sci-fi futuristic vehicle that was vaguely reminiscent of Hamid Bekradi's scarab-inspired safari observation truck. My tutors loved the design, and I finished the degree with flying colors, but I came to hate the design, because I knew just how ridiculously unrealistic it was. And also, how ultimately worthless from an operational point of view. Concept vehicles that look very “sci fi” are almost always worthless, even though tutors at Art schools seem to love them. Evidently, tutors at Art School don't participate on web-forums like ExPo!!

The TerraLiner project has now continued, but along a completely different trajectory, somewhat inspired by the Paradise Motorhomes vehicle that Joe posted. When I saw that Paradise Motorhomes expedition vehicle with its drop-down deck, it hit me like a ton of bricks, and suddenly I could “see” a really cool possibility that I had not seen before. A possibility that would be grounded in practical considerations like autonomous water, power, and sewage; and that would also look incredibly original, but justifiably so.

The appearance of the TerraLiner when the decks and awnings are "unfolded", will now be a pure expression of its function, namely, maximum power and water autonomy via massive solar. And it is precisely because I am giving the TerraLiner an original operational function -- multi-month glamping on coastal farmland -- that the TerraLiner will look original. That's the purest and most “honest” form of design originality that exists, and so I am really pleased that things are now moving in that direction instead....:ylsmoke: ...Even if others on ExPo may balk at the size.


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12. A tangent on Newell, and the question of curvilinear design competence


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A bit more about Newell. In the next 10 posts I'd like to think about Newell's interiors, and why they often bother me, even though they do try to be more "curvilinear." This is a tangent, a major digression, and to pick up the main argument about probable TerraLiner weight, just jump ahead to post #1962 on page 197, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/124789-Fully-Integrated-MAN-or-TATRA-6x6-or-8x8-Expedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1962834#post1962834 .

I have wanted to think through and write about Newell interiors for a while, and this seemed like a good place to do so. I realize that most participants on ExPo are not interested in the more "aesthetic" side of TerraLiner design, and that the engineering issues generate the most enthusiasm on the thread. Some have even suggested that the TerraLiner should not be imagined as a high-specification "glamper" when it comes to interior design and fittings. By now it should be abundantly clear that this is simply not on the cards. I have zero interest in designing a more pedestrian, merely "utilitarian" camper interior, and I have even less interest -- one might say "negative" interest -- in designing a rectilinear-boxy "haute IKEA" interior of the kind that tends to predominate at the premium end of the expedition motorhome market. The TerraLiner just will be a glamper, and those who don't like hearing that, may simply want to read the engineering discussions and ignore posts like the following.


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,

First off, there are really good Truck Trend and Car & Driver articles dating to 2013 and 2011 respectively, which describe Newell in detail -- see http://www.trucktrend.com/features/travel/1310-2013-newell-2020p-recreational-vehicle/ , http://www.caranddriver.com/features/newell-p2000i-rv-review-feature , and http://www.caranddriver.com/features/newell-p2000i-rv-review-feature-itll-cost-you-page-2 . Also see http://www.motorhome.com/top-stories/the-fine-life/ . And for photo galleries with lots of high-quality pictures, see http://www.trucktrend.com/features/travel/1310-2013-newell-2020p-recreational-vehicle/#photo-01 , http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/newell-p2000i-rv-review-feature#1 , and http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=370410 .

Here are two of the better videos about Newell:






Although I've stated a number of times in the thread that I admire how Newell is trying to do more curvilinear interior design, here I should add the qualification that I also think that European companies iike Hymer, Concorde, or even Westfalia do a much better job. The ceilings on many Newell motorhomes, for instance, give me the willies, because they are overly baroque and hyperactive, and yet at the same time so horribly symmetrical:








Before I continue, I should also add the further qualification that if you were to ask me, "If someone just gave you a Newell motorhome, would you enjoy living in it?", my answer would be an unqualified "Yes!!" If you also asked me, "Are Newell interiors more beautiful than most of the motorhome interiors one sees in the United States?", again, my answer would be an unqualified "Yes!!" And if you asked me whether Newell interiors contain many moments of design excellence and beauty, once again, the answer would be "Yes!!" But at this price-point, somewhere between 1 and 2 million USD, one expects complete design competence without error, and a European level of visual sophistication and refinement. And that's why I am being critical.

The basic problem with Newell's interior designers is that the only curves they seem able to understand and deploy, are either perfect circles or ellipses. "Compound curves" or "French curves" seem to elude them -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_curve . Furthermore, they are simply not as adept as the designers working for Hymer, Concorde, or Westfalia when it comes to fusing the lines created by curves, with the lines created by more linear elements, thereby creating an interior that unifies, and seems to "flow". Perhaps the fault lies not with the designers, but rather, with Newell's craftspeople or manufacturing processes? Perhaps the latter are simply incapable of fabricating more complicated curvature? Or perhaps the fault lies with clients who specify just circles on top of ellipses?

One might be tempted to think that eliminating the baroque mess on the ceiling would solve the problem, and/or just going more rectilinear in general, as per the following more recent images of Newell interiors:








In the last image the ceiling isn't rectilinear, but rather, simplified, and still it's just one geometrically perfect circle after another..... ....

And yet even in these more rectilinear designs there is still the problem that Newell interiors look so darn busy. They seem horribly cluttered, filled with too many different competing surfaces and moldings. As Matthew Hoffman suggested in a video that I posted at the beginning of the thread, there is a tendency amongst American motorhome manufacturers to pack their interiors with too much variety, and the psychological/visual consequence of doing so, is that the interior looks smaller than it might have appeared otherwise, if it were visually simpler -- see post #217 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1583938#post1583938 , and the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUU2yglK97E .

Hoffman's interior design is a bit too minimalist for my taste, and his tendency is a bit too rectilinear. But Hoffman's interiors are undeniably beautiful, and have an elegance and balance that seems to elude Newell, at least when it comes to "total interior design integration".

Now it's possible that the "Quad-Slide" format simply does not lend itself well to the creation of an aesthetically satisfying and unified interior, although I am not certain of this. Or put it this way: I have yet to see an American Class-A interior with large slide-outs that does look aesthetically unified. Hoffman Architecture and ARC specialize in Airstream camper conversions, and it is no doubt much easier to create top-notch interior designs inside Airstreams. So too, none of the German motorhome interiors that I will review below have slide-outs, and perhaps that's one of the reasons why they look so aesthetically pleasing. There may be something in the very volumetric nature of slide-outs that radically undercuts any possibility of a visually integrated interior appearance.

On the other hand, in this thread I've posted a number of examples of excellent interior designs for spaces created by large slide-outs, for instance, the interior designs of Ketterer horse-boxes -- see post #110 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1566706#post1566706 , and posts #1183 and #1184 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1742941#post1742941 . The interior of the Australian-made Paradise Motorhomes expedition vehicle also strikes me as very unified, even though it has two massive slide-outs -- see posts #879 to #884 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1726998#post1726998 and following; posts #912 to #914 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1730658#post1730658 and following; post #944 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1733451#post1733451 ; and post #1814 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1932489#post1932489 .

But these are interiors much shorter than the Newell living room/kitchen/dining areas shown above. So it's possible that when the main living area becomes as long and expansive as per Newell, full visual integration is much harder to achieve.



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13. Curvilinear Design, Asymmetry, and the Organic Tradition in Architecture


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Another aspect of curvilinear design is learning how to handle complexity and asymmetry, as opposed to symmetry. And yet another aspect is contrast and contraposition, for instance, learning how to play off curved elements against linear ones, or one color against another, as per the split complementaries often used by ARC (American Retro Caravan) in some of its more "glam", Miami Deco conversions -- see http://arcairstreams.co.uk/blog/category/cafe-airstream/ , http://arcairstreams.co.uk/blog/2011/10/cafe-airstream-2/, http://arcairstreams.co.uk/blog/2011/09/cafe-airstream/ , http://arcairstreams.co.uk/blog/2011/08/gorgeous-coffee-machine-arrives-for-cafe-airstream/ , http://arcairstreams.co.uk/blog/2014/05/apollos-return/ , http://arcairstreams.co.uk/blog/2013/11/colour-changing-lights-in-apollo-70/ , http://arcairstreams.co.uk/blog/2013/11/the-apollo-70-cocktail-bar-airstream/ , http://arcairstreams.co.uk/blog/2013/02/the-airstream-safari-with-the-egg-shaped-hole/ , and http://arcairstreams.co.uk/blog/2013/02/a-closer-look-at-that-luxury-padded-bedroom/ .

If one is not comfortable with complexity, asymmetry, contrast, and contraposition, then perhaps one shouldn't try going more organic and curvilinear.....

Here a bit of design history might prove instructive. Although baroque churches were undeniably "organic" in terms of their ground-plans as well as their detailing, and although baroque churches were undeniably symmetrical, almost always the varied program of sculpture and stucco decoration introduced enough asymmetrical variation that any feeling of geometrical symmetry was radically suppressed. Furthermore, in the 20th century the distinctive modernist current called "organic" architecture -- as instantiated in the buildings of Frank Lloyd Wright, Bruce Goff, Alvar Aalto, Eero Saarinen, Friedensreich Hundertwasser, Oscar Niemeyer, Paolo Portoghesi, Giovanni Michelucci, and Imre Makovecz -- has been a design current that loves asymmetry. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_architecture , http://www.architetturaorganica.org , http://www.architetturaorganica.org/architetturaorganica/HOME.htm , and http://www.architetturaorganica.org/architetturaorganica/ARCHITETTI/ArchitettiINDICE.htm .

Frank Lloyd Wright needs no introduction, but my primary interest here is his later, more curvilinear work, like the Johnson Wax Headquarters, the Guggenheim Museum in New York, the Gammage Memorial Auditorium, the Marin County Civic Center, and the Monona Terrace Community Center, the latter two built only after Wright's death -- see http://www.architetturaorganica.org/architetturaorganica/ARCHITETTI/ArchitettiAMERICA.htm , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lloyd_Wright , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Wax_Headquarters , http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Johnson_Wax_Building.html , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_R._Guggenheim_Museum , http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Guggenheim_Museum.html , http://www.guggenheim.org/new-york , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_County_Civic_Center , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvkpDF0S5pY , http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Marin_Civic_Center.html , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gammage_Memorial_Auditorium , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monona_Terrace :



[video=youtube;JVm-ePTIKR4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVm-ePTIKR4 [/video] [video=youtube;e_YInD68ibE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_YInD68ibE [/video]



The Spanish architect Antoni Gaudi is also widely known, at least in Europe -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoni_Gaudí , http://www.architetturaorganica.org/architetturaorganica/ARCHITETTI/ArchitettiEUROPA.htm , http://www.red2000.com/spain/barcelon/phgau.html , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_Milà , and http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Casa_Mila.html :



[video=youtube;eEY2XvzlOl4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEY2XvzlOl4 [/video] [video=youtube;Q18lNtqxrDc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q18lNtqxrDc [/video]



Also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaN1WB6exAE , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lt7PF3Z5Og , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3bWYbjjuvc , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An0aB-l8ixA , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxqT88kAfVg , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpqirRXBlyU , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdzDiSMbcwY , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwuZ0fgWCkE .

Less well-known, even in the United States, is Bruce Goff -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Goff , http://www.bruce-goff-film.com/en/english.html , http://brucegoffbartlesville.blogspot.com , http://brucegoffchicago.blogspot.com , http://brucegoffkansascity.blogspot.com , and http://rbeuc.freesuperhost.com/english/bruce-goff.html :



[video=youtube;qP-yPOEh_zw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP-yPOEh_zw [/video]


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But Goff is famous in architectural circles, and so too are Alvar Aalto, Eero Saarinen, Friedensreich Hundertwasser, Oscar Niemeyer, Paolo Portoghesi, Giovanni Michelucci, and Imre Makovecz.

For Aalto, http://www.architetturaorganica.org/architetturaorganica/ARCHITETTI/ArchitettiEUROPA.htm , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvar_Aalto ,http://www.architetturaorganica.org/architetturaorganica/ARCHITETTI/EUROPA/AlvarAalto1.htm , http://www.info-finlande.fr/aaltosite/ , http://www.info-finlande.fr/aaltosite/SWF_UK/home-uk.html , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OmaBGpayVg , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5Z2YXmmvv0 , http://www.checkonsite.com/browse/architect/featured-architects/alvar-aalto/ , http://en.wikiartmap.com/view/32050/-/-/alvar_aalto.html , http://www.aalto.com , and http://www.theguardian.com/books/2007/mar/17/architecture.modernism ; for Saarinen, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eero_Saarinen , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_Center , http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/TWA_at_New_York.html , http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2015/...erminal_a_pristine_time_capsule_from_1962.php , http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/jetblue-jfk-airport-twa-terminal-hotel , http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2004/11/07/saarinen_rising?pg=full , http://time.com/3994195/eero-saarinen-105/ , http://time.com/3985669/eero-saarinen-photographs/ , http://content.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,61064843001_1952762,00.html , http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704541004574600423256592530 , http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/11/arts/design/11saarinen.html?_r=1 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCE9YluPYUg , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-Cg6qfytlA , and http://www.eerosaarinen.net ; for Hundertwasser, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedensreich_Hundertwasser ,http://www.architetturaorganica.org...ITETTI/EUROPA/FriedensreichHundertwasser1.htm , https://www.kunsthauswien.com/en/museum/friedensreich-hundertwasser , http://www.hundertwasser-friedensreich.com , http://www.hundertwasser-haus.info/en/ , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fDVVUp9xc8 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFp1Jy5jd4U , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2CV4GdoGAA , and http://www.hundertwasser.com ; for Niemeyer, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Niemeyer , http://www.niemeyer.org.br , http://www.arti-fact.com/architect/map/106/Oscar-Niemeyer , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niterói_Contemporary_Art_Museum , http://www.macniteroi.com.br , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQnxUpuS13U ; for Portoghesi, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Portoghesi , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HMsTIXJu_Q , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWD17kmyf9Q , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmYclAH6MGU , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74ZIWsyZnYc , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjf7kkns0VI ; for Michelucci, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Michelucci , http://www.michelucci.it , http://www.michelucci.it/node/295 , http://www.michelucci.it/sites/michelucci2-dev.etabeta.it/files/Illustrativo autostrada.pdf , and http://www.architetturatoscana.it/at2011/scheda.php?scheda=FI29 ; and for Makovecz, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Makovecz , http://www.pbase.com/helenpb/makovecz , http://www.zenth.dk/research/intro.htm , http://makovecz.hu/makoveczimre/ , http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2011/sep/29/imre-makovecz , http://www.architectural-review.com/view/reviews/reputations/imre-makovecz-1935-2011/8624040.article , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObTyr8S3TB8 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raM3LEiLyWs , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEZS4wLIVj4 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWuHtTIz8NQ , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZOfRoJy_zM .

Some more videos:



[video=vimeo;14239145]https://vimeo.com/14239145[/video] [video=vimeo;56438521]https://vimeo.com/56438521[/video] [video=youtube;PhQIRNo-kpU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhQIRNo-kpU [/video]



I love the quote in the tribute-video to Oscar Niemeyer, about 2 minutes in:

My work is not about “form follows function”, but “form follows beauty”, or, even better, “form follows feminine.”

Even Richard Meier, whose oeuvre is often very rectilinear, has recently turned his hand to curvilinear design, most famously in a beautiful church that he designed for a working-class neighborhood in a suburb of Rome -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Meier , http://www.richardmeier.com , http://www.richardmeier.com/?page_id=480 , http://www.richardmeier.com/?projects=jubilee-church-2 , http://www.richardmeier.com/?projects=jubilee-church-2 , http://www.archdaily.com/20105/church-of-2000-richard-meier , http://figure-ground.com/jubilee_church/ , and http://www.diopadremisericordioso.it :



[video=youtube;UF938KX4fcM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF938KX4fcM [/video]



Last but not least there's Le Corbusier, widely acknowledged as the greatest architect of the 20th century, who in his later years also became decidedly "organic" and curvilinear -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Corbusier , http://www.fondationlecorbusier.fr , and http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/lecorbusier . Corbu's crowning masterpiece is the chapel at Ronchamp -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre_Dame_du_Haut and http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Notre_Dame_du_Haut.html :



[video=youtube;O_qLUWFNVlU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_qLUWFNVlU [/video]



The organic tradition in modern design is rich and deep, and the general point here is that for the most part it has positively reveled in asymmetry. In the 21st century the love of asymmetry in modernist architecture continues, as the organic tradition has morphed into computer-aided hi-tech blobitecture and parametric architecture, described in posts #1894 to #1898, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1959471#post1959471 and following.

Organic, biomorphic, or curvilinear design goes naturally hand-in-hand with asymmetrical composition, and asymmetrical composition adds "life" and "energy" to biomorphic forms -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomimetics and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetry . If one thinks in terms of biomimicry, although most organisms will be symmetrical across one axis, they will not be symmetrical across all axes. For instance, to state the obvious, human beings are symmetrical left/right, across what is known as the "sagittal plane" -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_terms_of_location . But human beings are not symmetrical front/back, across the "coronal plane", and our "dorsal" buttocks in back are different from our "ventral" bellies in front. So too, human beings are not symmetrical in terms of the transverse plane, because we have heads at one end, and feet at another -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_plane and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_terms_of_location. So anyone who explores the world of biomorphic design and who aspires to some degree of "biomimicry", would be foolish to think that most animal bodies are symmetrical across all possible axes.

Furthermore, the curves one finds in nature are almost never simple geometric curves, and almost always they are much more complex and interesting. Even the curve of a Nautilus shell, whose dimensions approximate a Fibonacci spiral or "Golden spiral", does not form a geometric curve in any simplistic or obvious way -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_spiral , http://www.goldennumber.net/spirals/ , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chambered_nautilus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gxC8OjoQkQ . In so far as the forms in nature can be captured mathematically, they are much more "fractal" than geometrically simple.

In short, if one wants to play in this biomorphic and curvilinear swimming pool, one needs to know how to swim, and this means knowing how to handle asymmetrical design.



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14. Westfalia, Hymer, and Concorde: Beautiful Production-Run Interior Design


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I brought up architecture because motorhome interior design is a cross between transportation design, industrial design, interior design, and to some extent architecture. In more expensive motorhomes there is latitude for a custom, bespoke approach, more akin to "interior design" than industrial design. But this does not necessarily mean that the interior will be more beautiful as consequence. If anything, the creative latitude given to Newell's designers to use expensive materials and engage in something like "interior design", often seems to backfire. Whereas in the hands of ARC or Hoffman Architecture, bespoke interior-designed Airstream trailers attain new heights of beauty and design excellence. See posts #216 and #217 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1583930#post1583930 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1583938#post1583938 .

It's then instructive to compare Newell interiors to those created by Westfalia, Hymer, and Concorde, companies that sell at a much lower price-point, and whose interiors have a production-run, "transportation design" sort of aesthetic. But just because an RV sells at a lower price-point and is produced in batches on an assembly line, does not mean that the interior has to be rectilinear. The following are production interiors, and not bespoke. And yet Westfalia, Hymer, and Concorde all employ designers adept at creating curvilinear furniture and interiors that cohere, that seem simple and uncluttered, and that visually expand the sense of space available. It's not necessary to go rectilinear and minimalist as per Hoffman Architecture in order to achieve an elegant interior appearance.

Let's start with Westfalia, and images of its "Joker", "Columbus", and "Amundsen" models -- see http://www.westfalia-mobil.net/en/ , http://www.westfalia-mobil.net/en/modelle/columbus/columbus-wohnen.php , http://www.westfalia-mobil.net/en/modelle/columbus/bad.php , http://www.westfalia-mobil.net/en/modelle/club-joker/clubjoker-wohnen.php , http://www.westfalia-mobil.net/en/modelle/club-joker/schlafen.php , http://www.westfalia-mobil.net/en/modelle/club-joker/bad.php , http://www.westfalia-mobil.net/en/modelle/amundsen/amundsen-wohnen.php , http://www.westfalia-mobil.net/en/modelle/amundsen/schlafen.php , http://www.westfalia-mobil.net/en/modelle/amundsen/kochen.php , http://www.westfalia-mobil.net/en/modelle/amundsen/bad.php , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westfalia .

These are van conversions in which everything is tightly packed, every square centimeter is at a premium, and people really do want these vehicles to be usable as motorhomes. One could use such extreme programmatic demands, and the engineering problems they engender, as an excuse to say something stupid like "Form follows Function". Which in actual practice amounts to little more than "Ugliness follows Mere Engineering", because neither the engineers nor the designers were willing to work hard enough to make a design function at the visual and psychological levels as well. But these Westfalia's are the exact opposite, and their interiors are masterful fusions of engineering and design.

For instance, in the first image below of the "Joker" kitchen, notice how the shape of the curvature in the surround at the upper left corner of the back window, gets mirrored in the curvature of the corners of the parquet insert on the floor, in front of the bathroom. This curvature also gets mirrored in the metal band running around the front of the countertop, as it curves around to meet the exterior wall of the bathroom. And so too we find this curvature mirrored as the metal band curves around to meet the side door, on the left hand side. And yet notice how the curve of the "tambour-sliding-door" cabinet and the front of the countertop above is no simple ellipse , but rather, it's a much more complex French curve:







Also notice how in both images of the kitchen there is an attempt to make the horizontal elements above the kitchen countertop form lines that curve around the back wall, just as the countertop and its metal banding curve around the back. This alone massively expands the space visually speaking, and makes it cohere.

There's also a really nice visual "rhythm" to the vertical heights of these horizontal elements. The expansive height of the white cabinets is followed by the aluminum banding around the countertop; then the massive width of the black countertop is followed by the relatively narrow height of the spice rack running clear across the back, which is the same height as the banding around the countertop; then comes the medium-massive height of the metal backsplash; followed by two bands of roughly equal height, but different materials, with the lower band picking up the metal of the backsplash, and just as wide as the backsplash horizontally; followed by the enormous expanse of the sidewall up to the roof. In terms of heights, the rhythm expressed here numerically would be something like 8:1:5:1:5:2:2:5. In terms of color, the rhythm would be white-8; silver-1; black-5; silver-8; off-white-5. I have no idea why it works so well, but it does.

Finally, notice the wonderful asymmetrical displacement of the backsplash and its band above, shifted to the left, relative to the white cabinets in front, which are shifted to the right. These details may seem arbitrary or accidental, but when everything coheres this well, they most probably are not. The composition of the various horizontal and vertical elements in this kitchen is about as good as a Mondrian painting, and indeed better, because it's 3D, and takes up the challenge of working with curves, too. One might say that this kitchen alone constitutes a veritable master-class in top-notch asymmetrical industrial design.

In the next 4 images of the Amundsen interior, the materials are a bit more costly, and we have a 3-tone color scheme in the kitchen, consisting of brown wood, white walls and other vertical surfaces, and black countertops. Four colors, if you count the aluminum edging:








Here everything is nicely rounded, including the bottom fronts of the overhead cabinets. But what impresses me most is the lighting: it's inset and barely seen, much of it embedded LED strip lighting. Even the circular spot-lamps are understated. Now look a the images of the Newell interiors above, where for reasons that escape me, the designers seem to want to make lighting a "big deal", the fixtures as visible and as gaudy as possible, especially in the first four older motorhomes pictured.

The next two are images of the Amundsen bathroom (on the left) and the Columbus bathroom (on the right), bathrooms where all surfaces form a continuous, smooth and integrated whole. Sure, I know that creating the moulds for continuous "one piece" fiberglass bathrooms like these would be expensive as a one-off, and Westfalia can only do this because it mass-manufacturers these bathrooms. But creating the mould for such a bathroom would probably still cost less than fitting out a bathroom full of gaudy expensive materials, as per the Newell bathrooms discussed in post #1958 below. And the result would not only be more functional, but in my opinion, also far more beautiful:







Perhaps one needs to be an artist or an industrial designer to appreciate how these Westfalia bathrooms truly are more beautiful, at every level, than the Newell bathrooms pictured below.... no matter how costly the Newell bathrooms were to construct, and no matter how expensive their materials.

Finally, here is an image of the bedroom at the back of the Columbus, showing how how terrific patterned bed covers and red pillows will look, when everything else has been kept in check and subdued:







Whereas when walls and ceilings get too busy with a variety of textures, colors, and materials as per Newell interiors, the "visual punctuation" that these red pillows achieve becomes impossible.


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CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
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