TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

biotect · Nov 10, 2015

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15. Hymer: Interior Design Elegance

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Concorde is near the top of the German Liner market, and one might say that perhaps Hymer is a notch down? But in its "Liner" motorhomes, Hymer also demonstrates that European transportation designers working in the motorhome industry seem to grasp certain basic principles that for some reason elude many American motorhome designers. See http://www.hymer.com/en/ , http://www.hymer.com/en/models/motorhomes/ , http://www.hymer.com/en/models/motorhomes/integrierte/hymer-starline-s/highlights.html , http://www.hymer.com/en/models/motorhomes/integrierte/hymer-starline-s/sleeping-room.html , http://www.hymer.com/en/models/motorhomes/integrierte/hymer-starline-s/kitchen.html , http://www.hymer.com/en/models/motorhomes/integrierte/hymer-starline-s/bathroom.html , http://www.hymer.com/en/models/motorhomes/integrierte/hymer-starline-s/layouts-und-data.html , http://www.hymer.com/en/service-and-accessories/brochures/download-brochures/ , http://www.camperclub.gr/files/pdf/HYMER Liner2010.pdf , http://www.kroken.no/site/img/1259/Broschuere_HYMER_Integriert_GB_161.pdf , http://www.motorhomes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Hymer-Integrated-Brochure.pdf , http://presse2010.hymer.com/csd-2010/Prices_technical_data_GB/Motorhome/TD_HYMER_Liner_GB.pdf , and http://www.hymer.com/assets/files/m...elflyer_12-Seiter_A4_RZ_web_en.compressed.pdf .

The beautiful details in the following images are almost too numerous to mention: subtle, often hidden lighting, for instance, indirect blue LED-strip lighting; cabinetry work in which all edges are rounded; overhead cabinets that angle forwards, with gently curving fronts; cabinet pulls that are modernist but just as smoothly curvilinear as everything else; parquet flooring; simple color schemes that unify; and no gratuitous, unnecessary mixture of different textures and materials:

What really blows me away are the kitchens designs that have appeared over the years in Hymer's premium "Starline" model: fantastic examples of graceful, modernist, curvilinear design that nonetheless incorporate wood as a traditional material:

It's possible that most American motorhomes don't have kitchens like these, simply because the craftspeople who can do such things with wood are in short supply in the United States.

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biotect · Nov 10, 2015

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16. Concorde: Zen Serenity

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I've already posted lots of images of Concorde interiors in this thread -- see post #72 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1564681#post1564681 , posts #147 and #148 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1569171#post1569171 ; as well as in Camper Thermal Engineering -- see post #96 and following, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet?p=1669392#post1669392 . So here I will post just four images that communicate how masterfully Concorde combines different kind of curves with linear elements, and how expansive, elegant, and serene Concorde interiors look, no doubt because they use plenty of white:

Granted, part of the visual unity can be attributed to Concorde's use of a simple three-color scheme, with soft fabric elements (sofas, carpets, curtains, lined ceilings and walls) all in the same shade of cream-white, played off against beautiful red cherry wood cabinetry, and what appears to be black marble inlay in the table and the shelf to the side. But that's the whole point: more variety of surface texture and color is not needed and is not wanted in a motorhome.

If you look again at the Newell interiors above, you'll see that in Newell interiors at least 6 to 8 differently textured and patterned surfaces are in play. Even in the rectilinear interiors at least 5 or 6 shades of gray, or 5 or 6 shades of beige, compete for one's attention. Perhaps the designer thought that merely by confining themselves to white, black, and a variety of greys, visual unity could be achieved. But design does not work that way. Although Concorde interiors have a much more colorful "punch" because of the bright cherrywood cabinetry, they still look more unified, because of the simplicity and overall integrity of the color scheme. Color is not a problem; rather, the problem is choosing just three, instead of thinking one can get away with 5 or 6, merely because they are all broadly shades of grey or shades of beige. Purely at the level of color, the earlier more curvilinear Newell interiors with the weird ceilings actually look more unified, because the color scheme clearly groups as per Concorde interiors, into just white, cherry red, and black.

This is just a small sample of Westfalia, Hymer, and Concorde images, and I will return to discussing all three companies again, when I address the curvilinear design virtues of the VW Kombi in a later posting series. The basic visual point is that curvilinear motorhome interior design can be incredibly elegant, serene and under-stated. But only if designers know what they are doing.

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17. Where Newell Succeeds: Kitchens

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With that said, there are particular areas -- considerd in isolation from the rest of the motorhome -- where Newell manages to do curvilinear design reasonably well. For instance, the kitchen area, considered in isolation, is breathtaking:

Contrast these with more recent images of the rectilinear kitchens that Newell now has in the photo gallery on its website:

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biotect · Nov 10, 2015

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18. Where Newell Succeeds: Outdoor Cooking Station with Evo-Grill

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And on the outside, many Newells also come equipped with a really cool circular barbecue, called an "Evo-Grill" -- see http://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/08/prweb1202664.htm , http://evoamerica.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html , http://www.luxurycoachlifestyle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=966 , http://luxurious-thing.blogspot.it/2008/08/newell-coach-motorhome-adds-evo.html , http://levrongadget.blogspot.it/2008/08/newell-coach-motorhome-adds-evo.html , http://www.evoamerica.com , http://www.evoamerica.com/about-us/ , http://www.evoamerica.com/home-page/evo-residential-appliance-for-home-use/ , http://www.evoamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Evo-Residential-Outdoor-Grills-2015.pdf , http://www.evoamerica.com/home-page...r-home-use/professional-tabletop-residential/ , http://www.evoamerica.com/wp-conten...ofessional-Tabletop-Residential-Datasheet.pdf , http://www.evoamerica.com/home-page...iance-for-home-use/affinity-30ge-residential/ , http://www.evoamerica.com/home-page...iance-for-home-use/affinity-30ge-residential/ , http://www.evoamerica.com/home-page/evo-residential-appliance-for-home-use/ronda-outdoor-components/ , http://www.evoamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Ronda-2015-Catalog-with-Pricing.pdf , http://www.evoamerica.com/wp-conten...-Residential-Indoor-Cooktop-Brochure-2015.pdf , http://www.evogrill.com.au , http://evogrill.com.au/products , http://evogrill.com.au/products/evo-affinity-30g-built-in-30-inch-solid-cooktop , and http://evogrill.com.au/cooking , http://www.alpina-belgium.com/nl/grill-barbecue/product/vlakke-tafelgrill-evo/#! , and http://www.alpina-belgium.com/nl/grill-barbecue/product/mobiele-vlakgrill-evo/ :

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biotect · Nov 10, 2015

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Note that Newell uses the 25E electric model, which is specified as "indoor", probably because the only outdoor models that Evo makes all use natural gas or propane -- see http://www.evoamerica.com/home-page/evo-residential-appliance-for-home-use/affinity-25e-residential/ and http://www.evoamerica.com/wp-conten...ffinity-25E-Cooktop-Residential-Datasheet.pdf :

2015-Evo-10-0061-EL-Affinity-25E-Cooktop-Residential-Datasheet copy.jpg

Personally, I love Teppanyaki-grilled meat and vegetables, and the Evo-grill seems perfect for that -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teppanyaki . But as the images above and the videos below attest, it's also perfect for many other things, besides -- see https://www.youtube.com/user/evogrills:

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biotect · Nov 10, 2015

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19. Some more examples of appliances with a curvilinear design aesthetic

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Here is another interesting example of an outdoor Tepankayaki table, this one made by “Cookndine” – see http://www.cookndine.com/en/index.html , http://www.cookndine.com/en/teppanyaki-function.html , http://www.cookndine.com/en/teppanyaki-specs.html , http://www.cookndine.com/en/aboutCDS.html , http://www.cookndine.com/en/built-inROUND.html , http://www.cookndine.com/en/teppanyaki-tables.html , http://www.cookndine.com/en/pdf.html , http://www.cookndine.com/files/tearsheets/CND_teppanyaki_grill_TABLE_spec_sheet.pdf , http://www.cookndine.com/files/tearsheets/CND_teppanyaki_PORTABLE_PU-23_spec_sheet.pdf , http://www.cookndine.com/files/tearsheets/CND_teppanyaki_PORTABLE_PU-27_spec_sheet.pdf , http://www.cookndine.com/GALLERY.html , http://www.cookndine.com/en/videoclips.html , and https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuKLZ20EyUEgGcfBqLCLQqA:

Teppanyaki grills are a dime a dozen, and high-end domino-hob systems (e.g. Gagenau, Kuppersbush, Neff, Miele, De Dietrich, Scholtes, etc.) will sell at least one domino element that's set up as a Teppanyaki grill. Even circular Teppanyaki grills are quite common.

Rather, what's unusual is that this Cookndine Teppankaki grill is built right into the surface of an all-metal table, so that it it's barely noticeable when turned off. When turned on, the center dips downward very slightly, creating a shallow depression so that juices from cooking will collect there:

Unlike the Evo-Grill, the Cookndine seems purpose-built for Teppanyaki, and does not seem like it would not work quite so well for pancakes, eggs, or bacon….

...Even so, the Cookndine Teppankaki grill is sort of like the Evo-Grill, in so far as it's a grill designed to make cooking more of a social experience, combining cooking with dining. Both products are beautiful examples of design where as top-notch engineering combines with beautiful curvilinear aesthetics. But both products go one step further, and have been designed to create a specific social experience, one that's not possible with more conventional cooking appliances located in the kitchen.

Here is another image of an outdoor circular appliance, a fridge that was once sold by Frontgate, but now no longer seems available – see http://www.appliancist.com/refrigerators/mini-refrigerator-electric-party.html , http://www.frontgate.com/Error404View , and http://www.appliancist.com/refrigerators/outdoor-refrigerators-summer-2008.html :

It's easy enough to imagine substituting the top-loading chiller for one of the Bongo's burners, and one would have the perfect, curvilinear outdoor cooktop/refrigerator/sink, all rolled into one.

Clearly, Evo grill is not the only company that has made a serious commitment to more "curvilinear" design in outdoor kitchen equipment. Further along in the thread I may discuss the products shown above in greater detail. I only mention these now in order to emphasize how Newell is not alone in self-consciously striving for a more "curvilinear" aesthetic. It's a common enough aspiration nowadays in architecture, interior design, and industrial design, because there is an almost universal recognition that the rectilinear modernist minimalism of the Bauhaus is rather arid, cold, and inhuman.

In the case of Newell, not only does Newell strive for a curvilinear aesthetic in the design of furniture, ceilings, and fixtures, it even tries to follow through on the same aesthetic in the very appliances it chooses. The TerraLiner will want to do the same. For instance, the GE Advantium oven is available with a more curvilinear front, one in which the upper and lower metal fascias on the door curve away from the window in the center:

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20. Newell's Sub-Zero Refrigerator

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Newell motorhomes also have sub-zero refrigerators, which appear to be the 30-inch wide model:

Exactly the same refrigerator would be available in a glass-door model -- see http://www.subzero-wolf.com/sub-zer...in-over-under-glass-door-refrigerator-freezer , http://www.subzero-wolf.com/sub-zer...inch-built-in-over-under-refrigerator-freezer , http://www.subzero-wolf.com/trade-r...in-over-under-glass-door-refrigerator-freezer , http://www.subzero-wolf.com/product.../built-in-refrigeration-qr-sheet-30ugs-st.pdf , http://www.subzero-wolf.com/~/media...allation guides/sub-zero/built-in install.pdf , http://www.subzero-wolf.com/~/media...o wolf/design guides/subzero design guide.pdf , and https://www.youtube.com/user/subzerowolf :

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biotect · Nov 10, 2015

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21. Where Newell Succeeds: Bedrooms

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For the most part Newell bedrooms are also beautifully designed, although once more in some examples the ceiling is just circles on ellipses:

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22. Some More Design Doubts: Newell Bathrooms

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The Newell shower featured in the Car & Driver photo gallery is nice enough -- see http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/newell-p2000i-rv-review-feature#35 and following:

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biotect · Nov 10, 2015

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23. Learning from Hartmann Huenerkopf

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But on my own view the showers and bathroom/toilet areas created by Hartmann Huenerkopf in its bespoke motorhomes are truly spectacular -- see http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/willkommen , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/wohnmobile , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/wohnmobile/prevost-xl-ii-45ft/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/wohnmobile/prevost-40-ft/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/wohnmobile/prevost-besprechungsmobil/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-zetros-1833a/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-zetros-3/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-zetros-ii/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/scania-expeditionsmobil/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/umbauten , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/umbauten/flair-800i-ebw-slideout/galerie , and http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/unternehmen :

Hartmann Huenerkopf's motorhome interiors are worth a good look more generally: they have aesthetically top-notch curvilinear designs, elegant cabinetry work, and Zen-calm color schemes reminiscent of Concorde. And yet Hartmann Huenerkopf's interiors are all one-off, custom bespoke projects, suggesting that it's simply false to claim that curved cabinetry, for instance, is only possible in batch-production models of the kind produced by Hymer.

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biotect · Nov 10, 2015

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24. Learning from the Czars

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By way of contrast, the basic problem with Newell's bathrooms is that once again they are just too darn busy.

For instance, the sinks and countertops in the the following images of various Newell bathrooms are all made out of a melange of materials, textures, and surfaces that simply fail to cohere:

In the first image above, a checkered metal in the backsplash mixes with a patterned marble inlay design, above which there is wood grain, combined with a sink that's also hyper-active grained marble, and marble tiling on the side that's different again. The designer simply does not know how to balance "calm" surfaces with more active surfaces. The designer attempts to unify the whole by color matching, but mere color matching of a collage of equally hyperactive surfaces is not enough to create coherence. The beautifully variegated marble of the sink would have been enough to scream "LUXURY!!". It's the same in the other three images: too many textures and surfaces combined in too many different ways, with only a half-hearted attempt at achieving coherence via simplistic color matching. The end result does not say "Luxury", but rather, bad taste. Lots of money wasted on bombastic, gaudy, over-the-top design, design that tries to convince you of its worth simply by cramming as many expensive materials as possible into the space available.

In the first image above real unity could have been created if instead the backsplash had contrasted completely with the marble: if the backsplash had been the split-complementary of red-orange, namely a blue of some kind; if that blue had been saturated, to contrast with the light pastel of the sink; and if the saturated-blue blacksplash had been a simple pattern on a non-shiny surface, to contrast with the complexity and polished brilliance of the marble. The paradoxical truth is that in design, it is systematic, well-thought-through contrast that creates unity, and not mere simple-minded color matching.

There's the further irony that these bathroom designs don't look lively at all, but rather dead, because they are devoid of the "punch" that using one dominant saturated color might have provided.

For an example of "punch", consider the first blue-tiled bathroom in the previous post above, by Hartmann Huenerkopf. It combines reddish-light-brown wood, white walls, and metal elements that look gold when reflecting the wood, and then adds "zing" via super-saturated blue tiles in the shower. This white/beige-brown/gold/saturated blue color scheme here is quite classic, indeed Imperial: it's the colour scheme that one sees in one palace after another in St. Petersburg, Russia. Czarist palace interiors almost uniformly consist of light-brown parquet wood flooring, white walls, gold trim and gold stucco work everywhere, and then one single super-saturated color that gives the interior "zing". As often as not that color is a rich lapis-lazuli blue:

If not a lapis-lazuli blue, then emerald green or rose red, but only one of these.

St. Petersburg is very far north, about the same latitude as Anchorage Alaska, and often the weather can be very overcast, grey, and miserable -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Petersburg , https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...2!3m1!1s0x4696378cc74a65ed:0x6dc7673fab848eff , https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...2!3m1!1s0x4696378cc74a65ed:0x6dc7673fab848eff , and https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...2!3m1!1s0x4696378cc74a65ed:0x6dc7673fab848eff . During the wintertime the days in St. Petersburg are also quite short, and the sun never rises that much above the horizon. So the Czars compensated with interiors that are some of the brightest and most uplifting I've yet seen, full of whimsy and joy. When the sun does come out in the winter and bounces at low angles off the deep snow outside, Russian palace interiors gleam with reflected light. The white walls and the gold stucco are certainly key, but by far the brightest interiors are those that add "punch" via inclusion of a single, dominant saturated color.

It might seems strange citing Imperial Russian interiors as examples of excellent taste. But they are, as anyone who has visited St. Petersburg can attest. Late 19[SUP]th[/SUP]-century Russian aristocrats had superb taste, if only because they had the enormous wealth necessary and the centuries of cultural refinement behind them required to develop it. Neoclassical St. Petersurg was dubbed the "Paris of the North", and without a doubt St. Petersburg is one the planet's top five most beautiful large cities. This tradition of exceptional visual sensitivity was lost during the Soviet period, and when capitalism returned to Russia, for about a decade Russian kleptocrats were notorious for their exceptionally bad taste. Purple jackets and gold-plated SUVs, for instance – see posts #577 to #580 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1663272#post1663272 and following.

But the visual legacy of the Czars was well-preserved in St. Petersburg, and in no time at all the Russians recovered their aesthetic patrimony, their centuries-long tradition of visual excellence. For instance the Constantine Palace on the Gulf of Finland near St. Petersburg was so abused over the years, that by the 1990's it was a derelict shell. The Russian government decided to restore the palace to its neo-classical splendor, and succeeded brilliantly -- see http://www.konstantinpalace.ru , http://www.konstantinpalace.ru/index.php?lng=eng , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strelna , http://www.russia-channel.com/blog/the-magnificent-constantine-palace-at-strelna , http://www.360cities.net/image/konstantinovkiy-palace-interior , http://stpetersburgrussia.ru/Attractions/constantine-palace-konstantinovsky , https://st-petersburg-tours.ru/constantine-palace , http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/28740 , http://enlight.ru/camera/279/index_e.html , http://enlight.ru/camera/283/index_e.html , http://enlight.ru/camera/284/index_e.html , and https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...2!3m1!1s0x4696393c692ade7b:0x9013791425c6e952 :

For the interior, skip ahead 4 minutes, 50 seconds into the video. For another example of a beautiful interior that uses lapis-lazuli blue columns to add “punch” to a colour-scheme that is otherwise white, beige, and golden yellow, skip ahead 19 minutes, 30 seconds. While watching this video always remember: these interiors were created in our lifetimes, and are only about a decade old.

The Constantine palace hosted the G-8 summit in 2006, and the G-20 summit in 2013 – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/32nd_G8_summit and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_G-20_Saint_Petersburg_summit. On the grounds a series of small mansionettes were built to house visiting heads of state, and the whole complex now constitutes a kind of Russian Camp David. Except that the Russians who rebuilt and expanded the Constantine Palace have consummate good taste. Although some older Russians will still dress like fashion-challenged middle-Americans, still wearing dated polyester clothes manufactured during the communist era, the younger generation dresses like Europeans, and European luxury brands have done a booming business since communism's fall.

Now there is one Newell bathroom sink area where the textures and patterns are not perpetually colliding, and the whole scheme is a bit more subdued and balanced. But even here the mistake was 180-degree mirrors:

Surely most of these cabinets above the sink could have been done in wood instead?

It's possible, of course, that the future owners of these motorhomes seriously contaminated the design process, and that's why these Newell bathrooms look so bombastic. 180-degre mirroring is something one might imagine an egotistical owner insisting upon.....:ylsmoke: ... In some Newell bathrooms the mirroring becomes so excessive, that it's impossible to "read" the space properly, because the mirrors just reflect each other:

Here too the mistake is thinking that mirrors alone create liveliness, when in fact just one well-chosen saturated color would have done much more.

On the other hand, the Newell 2011 model featured in the Car & Driver photo-series that accompanied the article, actually has as sauna (!) -- see http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/newell-p2000i-rv-review-feature#38 :

The mere existence of this sauna might compensate for any number of design mistakes.....:sombrero:

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biotect · Nov 10, 2015

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25. Where Newell Succeeds: the Driving Station

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Now where Newell really shines, is in cockpit design. Newell's driving station is by far the most beautiful I have ever seen, anywhere, bar none:

newell-p2000i-rv-instrument-panel-photo-406875-s-986x603.jpg

That is, until one looks upward at the ceiling above the driver, where once again it's weird ellipses upon ellipses, with completely gratuitous mirrors, just to make it be needlessly confusing to find the overhead switch one is looking for.....

:

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26. One possible reason why Newell design sometimes fails: owner intervention?

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The more that I think about it, the more that it seems possible that the design incoherence one finds in many Newell interiors may be due to owner-intervention. In effect, mid-western Americans with lots of money but relatively poor taste will probably insist that Newell's designers do x, y, or z in the living room and bathroom. Newell wants to make money, so it obliges the whims and fancies of would-be owners, and the end result is a mess. I've seen this often enough when visiting the homes of wealthy friends whose parents live in Salt Lake City, Denver, Phoenix, and Kansas City. They'll have huge homes costing millions, filled with triangular plexiglass tables sitting on top of orange rugs, or Ferrari-red bathrooms plastered with mirrors trimmed in gold. The amount spent in America's "flyover country" on really bad interior design must run into the billions.

The reason why I think Newell itself could do better, if only owners would not intervene, is precisely because Newell motorhomes contain so many "moments" of design excellence, like the kitchens already shown above, or this driving cockpit. In these specific arrangements of volumes and surfaces there is not much room for owner-intervention, so perhaps here we are seeing Newell designers demonstrating their very best work.

The exteriors of Newell motorhomes are also undeniably beautiful, simply breathtaking; just take a look at all the wonderful detail shots in the Car & Driver gallery beginning at http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/newell-p2000i-rv-review-feature#18 . Here we have Porsche to thank. First in 2006 and again in 2012, Newell hired Porsche Design to restyle the exterior of its motorhome -- see http://www.newellcoach.com/2012/06/...torhome-features-innovative-redesign-porsche/ , https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/news/motorhome-designed-by-porsche-revealed , and http://www.motorhome.com/rv-travel-news/motorhome-news/newell-debuts-porsche-designed-coach/ . Newell had turned elsewhere for its 2011 makeover, with less than optimal results -- see http://www.examiner.com/article/newell-coach-broadens-collaboration-with-porsche-design-studio . So at the very least it's clear that Newell understands the value of design excellence. And when things go wrong, Newell is willing to bite the bullet and pay for excellence to rectify mistakes. Notably, the exterior detailing at the front and the back of a Newell is also, thankfully, something that owners can't mess with.

Owner-intervention may also explain Newell's horrible ceilings, because in the following video about ceilings in Marathon coaches, Marathon makes it clear that its equally horrible ceilings were designed by owners:

Marathon is roughly in the same class of "semi-custom" motorhome as Newell, and Marathon motorhomes can also cost more than a million. So if Marathon is happy to create super-kitsch ceilings designed by owners, then quite possibly Newell does the same. And not just ceilings, but also bathrooms, and interiors more generally.

Again, the moral of the story here is that having the financial latitude to create a more bespoke, semi-custom interior design may not necessarily be a good thing. The production-run interiors of Westfalia, Hymer, and Concorde have a coherence, elegance, calm, unity, and visually integrated beauty that seems to elude Newell interiors. Westfalia, Hymer, and Concorde interiors are beautiful above all because they use simple color schemes and a restricted "palette" of textures and materials. Too much money generates the temptation to go wild with a variety of materials. And catering too much to the whims of owners who have lots of money but little taste, is guaranteed to lead to substandard results.

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biotect · Nov 10, 2015

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27. Thinking through a Newell as weight and volumetric precedent

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Now again, Newells are longer than the TerraLiner: at 45 feet or 13.72 m, they will be 1.72 m longer. And they have four slide-outs, whereas the TerraLiner will have three. On the other hand, Newells are not off-road capable, and do not have the kind of heavier torsion-free chassis that the TerraLiner will require. Newells also do not have drop-down decks, or pop-ups.

On its website describing specific coaches, Newell does not publish weight information -- see http://www.newellcoach.com/the-coaches/new-coaches/ , http://www.newellcoach.com/newell-coaches/coach-1551/ , http://www.newellcoach.com/newell-coaches/coach-1549/ , http://www.newellcoach.com/newell-coaches/coach-1544/ , etc. But recently Newell seems to have added a more general "Specifications" field and PDF, where a "standard" Newell is described as having a gross vehicle weight of 63,300 lbs -- http://www.newellcoach.com/features/specifications/ and http://www.newellcoachsales.com/fckimages/14 Specs_and_Features-5.pdf . Translated into kg, that's 28,712 kg, or close to 29 tons.

Ian, 29 tons for a "standard" Newell is certainly closer to your figure of 30 tons. But unlike Mañana or Blue Thunder, Newells are not designed with militant attention given to saving weight. And a Newell coach is in fact 14 % larger than the TerraLiner in terms of length. Because ground clearance is not such an issue when driving First-World roads, a Newell Coach is also at least 30 - 40 cm taller in terms of camper body height. The side-lockers on a Newell drop down very low to the ground:

Whereas on the TerraLiner the side-lockers would drop no lower than the axle clearance, which would be about 60 cm with Michelin XZL tires. The Newell is 159 inches high, or 4.04 m, and so its camper body, including side-lockers, is about 3.80 or 3.70 m high. Whereas the TerraLiner's camper body, including drop-down side-lockers, would be about 3.40 m high. The Newell is also slightly wider: 102 inches, which is 2.59 m, instead of 2.55 m.

Expressing things volumetrically in a very rough way, a Newell's camper body including side lockers would be 13.72 m long x 3.80 m high x 2.59 m wide, or 135 cubic meters. Whereas the TerraLiner's camper body including drop-down side-lockers will be 12 m long X 3.4 m high x 2.55 m wide, or 104.4 cubic meters. The TerraLiner, in other words, will be have about 77.34 % of the camper body volume of a Newell. If we multiply the Newell's gross weight of 28,712 kg by 0.7734, what do we get? Well, we get 22,204 kg, in other words, 22 tons.

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CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

biotect · Nov 10, 2015

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CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

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Also notice how a "standard" Newell is specified as having a big, 600 HP engine as well as a big, 20 KW supplementary generator made by Martin Diesel, a generator that weighs 900 lbs, or 408 kg -- again, see http://www.newellcoach.com/features/specifications/ , http://www.newellcoachsales.com/fckimages/14 Specs_and_Features-5.pdf , http://www.martindiesel.com/index.htm , http://www.martindiesel.com/Products/products_generators.htm , http://www.martindiesel.com/Products/Generators/55-DS to 4405-DS Series.htm , http://www.martindiesel.com/Products/Generators/205 -DS Tech Info.htm , and http://www.martindiesel.com/Old/200-3000.htm :

newell-p2000i-rv-149-liter-turbocharged-inline-6-diesel-engine-photo-406878-s-986x603.jpg

Note that 408 kg is fairly standard for a quality 20 KW generator.

So if a TerraLiner instead has two Jenoptik diesel generators, which individually weigh just 350 kg -- which is no more than the weight of most 20 KW generators currently on the market -- then TerraLiner will not be carrying any more "ICE" weight than a Newell. In fact, much less. The 600 HP Cummins ISX 2010 EPA diesel engine that the Newell carries weighs a whopping 1,445 kg -- see http://cumminsengines.com/isx15-heavy-duty-truck-epa-2010#overview , http://cumminsengines.com/powerspec-isx , http://cumminsengines.com/brochure-download.aspx?brochureid=95 , http://cumminsengines.com/uploads/docs/og_ws_isx15_isx.pdf . Add to that the weight of the Newell's transmission, an Allison HD4000MH six-speed automatic, which weighs about 440 kg -- see http://www.allisontransmission.com/...sheets/int4000_sa5344(201306)blk.pdf?sfvrsn=2 .

Here is a wonderful image that provides a very visceral understanding of the kind of ICE weight we are talking about, in this case, courtesy of the Truck Trend article on Newell -- see http://www.trucktrend.com/truck-reviews/1310-making-the-best-even-better-inside-newell-s-2013-2020p/ :

A hybrid would eliminate all of the weight you see in this photograph. Ian, note that in your power calculations you mistakenly assumed that a big transmission will still be necessary in a serial hybrid vehicle. It will not: a big transmission is precisely one of the things that could be eliminated.

So in total, a Newell has a Cummins 600 HP engine + Allison transmission + 20 KW supplementary generator, which together weigh 1445 kg + 440 kg + 408 kg = 2,293 kg. Whereas the TerraLiner will have only two ICE diesel generators, which combined will weigh 750 kg, or 1,543 kg less.

Now granted, the TerraLiner's three (or six?) electric motors will add some weight. But given that even a globally capable motorhome that has a conventional diesel engine will want a solar array on the roof, an array that will require a lith-ion battery bank, "adding" a 100 KW battery bank to the TerraLiner is not really adding anything. The weight of such a lith-ion battery bank would have to be added to vehicles like a Newell and Blue Thunder, too, if they want massive solar in order to achieve some measure of power autonomy when stationary. As it is, even without solar, the Newell already has a fairly hefty battery bank -- see :

So I figure that the drive-train for the TerraLiner just will be lighter -- much lighter, probably at least 500 kg lighter, and maybe 1000 kg lighter -- than the drive-train of a Newell.

When estimating the TerraLiner's weight, it's important to take into consideration relevant design precedents such as these, as opposed to just stipulating exaggerated numbers, because perhaps one feels personally uncomfortable with the design direction that a somewhat unconventional proposal is taking.....?

... I very much appreciate your willingness to do the math, but it would be great if you could re-do the math again, taking into consideration the above more realistic parameters and observations.

The fault is also mine here, for not having been absolutely 100 % clear about TerraLiner design parameters. In the past I've been a bit cagey about specifying TerraLiner size and weight, because I wanted to see where the "operational requirements" would take me. I wanted my design process to be driven by my sense of what my intended market -- wealthy retired couples -- would want. And not by anything as artificial as a "maximum 16 ton weight ceiling" or "maximum 10 m length limit", of the kind that some (middle-aged?) thread participants have suggested. Those artificial weight and length limits have been proposed by participants who have been imagining their ideal, mid-sized expedition motorhome: a motorhome that both sojourns and explores, and that zips through one country after another at top speed.

Until I became clear about the kind of slow-travel, Class-A "base camp" motor-homing that my intended target-market would prefer, I was willing to humor such thread participants. But no more. I can now state categorically and without reservation that I have no interest whatsoever in a 16-ton weight-limit for the TerraLiner, nor am I interested in a 10.5 or 10.75 m length limit. And I can state TerraLiner size and weight parameters with much more certainty and conviction.

One question: where did you pull your battery weight information from? You did not provide a link or any argument as to why a lith-ion battery bank would weigh the amount that you asserted. Again, sorry to be a stickler for such things, but I like evidence and links, and I've become exceedingly allergic to mere assertion. If someone is not wiling to back up their reasoning with hard links to data that I can see for myself, well, my apologies, I just won't believe them. I am personally not wiling to accept anyone as an "authority". In my book, nobody has the right to post mere assertions without PDFs, links, or videos as evidential backup, especially if those assertions are extremely contentious, and potentially exaggerated, like 30 tons....:sombrero:

Mere assertion is also a bit of a conversation stopper, because one can't research the assumptions that that the asserter is using. So soon things descend to the level of a shouting match, with one mere asserter claiming superior personal authority versus another mere asserter. I know it takes a bit more time and trouble to provide links and evidence, but everything really does go much smoother that way.

Again, hope this doesn't sound too harsh, and I really do appreciate your attempt to do a power calculation!!

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28. The More Power Calculations, the Merrier

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So too, if anyone else wants to post a revised power calculation based on the above parameters and considerations, please feel free....

... The more power calculations we have in play, the better. It would be great if an argument-and-evidence based discussion of power calculations got going, with different participants coming up with slightly different figures. But figures based on reasonable assumptions, and figures backed up by links, pdfs, images, or videos, demonstrating potential battery weights, electric motor KW estimates and motor weights, and so on.

The idea that two Jenoptok generators would each weigh 350 kg should be taken as a "given", and so too their combined power output, i.e. 240 KW. The TerraLiner's weight of 21 - 23 tons should also be taken as a given, and a maximum of 24 tons. This includes batteries. Calculations should be based on the goal of 1 - 2 hours all-electric driving, and no more. 8 hours all-electric driving is quite unnecessary and pointless. And remember, there will be absolutely no need to specify larger generators, because the whole point to the battery bank is that it will absorb all peak power needs. The battery bank will kick in when accelerating, for instance, with the electric motors drawing down electricity from the batteries much faster than the generators can replenish it. But no worries, because moments of acceleration are not the dominant form of driving, and the hybrid system will also have regenerative braking.

So even if the TerraLiner might need 500 KW when accelerating, this does not mean that the diesel generators have to rated to output 500 KW in total. If anyone reading this fails to understand this basic point, then they have utterly and completely failed to understand how a serial hybrid works. In that case, they simply need to read and reread egn's comment reposted in #1926 above, and watch and rewatch the Top Gear video, until they finally do "get" it. See http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1960596#post1960596 .

All best wishes,

Biotect

Haf-E · Nov 10, 2015

Hello Bio - Just getting back to this thread after a break...

I disagree with your statement "A hybrid would eliminate all of the weight you see in this photograph. Ian, note that in your power calculations you mistakenly assumed that a transmission will still be necessary in a serial hybrid vehicle. It will not: a transmission is precisely one of the things that could be eliminated."

While it is true that a road going electric vehicle can operate without a multi-gear transmission - such as nearly all of the commercially made EVs - there is still the need to change the RPMs of the electric motor to lower speed / higher torque - so some type of "gearbox" is still needed. Also, for a vehicle which is intended to both operate at high cruising speeds on the highway and traverse poor roads / snow / mud etc - a low range gear would be extremely useful. So I think a two speed "transfer case" type transmission would be necessary - and probably one of them per motor / per axle ideally. This still would be smaller and lighter than a typical ICE drivetrain for a large AWD truck.

The comparison of the drivetrain and overall weight of the proposed Terraliner to a Newell coach is still pretty much apples and oranges as the Newell only has one set of wheels powered, while the Terraliner will probably have more axles and all of them would be powered. So I suspect that the overall weight of the drivetrain of the Terraliner would be similar to the weight of the Newell once the dual generators, multiple axles, multiple motors and gearboxes are included. This does not mean to suggest that there isn't a lot of advantages to the proposed Terraliner drivetrain design - it will allow much more flexible configuration, more effective use of space and better weight distribution.

Iain_U1250 · Nov 10, 2015

OK, beginning to understand what your concept is, a Class A motor home with a bit more ground clearance on a 6x6 chassis for an "old retired couple with lots of money" (ORCWLOM) which gets parked up on the beach. Same concept as Joanne and Pete here in Australia, (except for the lots of money part

)

They have a lot of insight as to what it takes to camp on the beach for a few months at a time.

http://greataussieadventure.com.au

Check out their section on desalination, that gives a real world review of a pretty good system which works, love their paddling pool solution for the water feed supply, given the 7 metre tidal range on the beach it is a typical "real world solution to a real world problem"

or Rob Grey's classic

http://robgray.com/graynomad/wothahellizat/index.php

I reran the spreadsheet, with the figures given. 2.5m x 4m, and 24ton for the Terraliner. In the previous calc I did not take into account the TOAD. If you are planning a three axle TOAD, ( not sure why, given the length, two is more than enough) and I'm taking another guess at 8 tons all up for the trailer and all the gear you plan on fitting.

Allowing for the 30% transmission losses as previously, you still need 248kW on a flat road with no headwind @100kph. If you plan on going "Diesel Electric drive", you could eliminate a few parts of the transmission, but you are adding a very large generator and control system instead, a standard transmission will be smaller, and unless you are going for motor per wheel, then you still need the 6x6 transfer boxes, diffs etc.

The Newell motorhomes run 600hp motors, http://www.newellcoach.com/features/specifications/ and would assume that the target market would expect "adequate" power from the their truck, 450kW is about the same as what they have. I would expect the rolling resistance of the 14.00 tyres to be a lot more than what I have used, given they their aggressive off-road tyre pattern and 100 aspect ratio, but I have not other figures other than normal truck tyres, so the previous figures are not unrealistic.

That is the total amount of power needed for the truck, if you want to go hybrid, where 25% of the power comes from the batteries when needed, to me, that is adding a lot of unnecessary complication for little gain given you don't intend to drive this around a city much. With the three slide outs taking a lot of the floor plan, where to you plan on putting the gensets and the batteries. With an enclosure they would not fit under the truck. Realistically there not much space left under any off road truck given the ground clearance, and that where you need to put fuel tanks, freshwater, grey water, black water, incinerators, starting batteries, truck air system and anything very heavy to lower the centre of gravity. Your rigid chassis is not designed to flex, so to retain you articulation you need for the last 100m getting onto and off the beach you need a fair bit of wheel travel. You will have to check the impact on the camper floor area, I suspect it will need to be accommodated inside the living area with wheel tubs or similar.

The Jenoptic gensets in their "bare" form are only slightly smaller than those we used on the gas fields, the sound proof enclose is what adds all the space. Attenuation of the exhaust and intake, whilst still allowing for proper cooling. You can't just put a box around it, a 120kW genset produces around 200kW of heat that needs to go somewhere. What noise limits do you want to set, going from 50DBa to 60DBA would make the package smaller, but the neighbours angrier.

Whilst you may have certain design concepts, there are various vehicle standards that a new designed vehicle will need to comply with.

Here are a few links to various requirements in Australia.

Here are the legal axle loads in Australia.

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/projects/western-nsw/katoomba-lithgow/heavyveh-mass0706.pdf

These are all the "Vehicle Standard Bulletins" VSB

https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/index.aspx

If you ever want to sell a Terraliner in Australia, you have to comply with these.

https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/index.aspx

and all the "Australian Design Rules" ADR

https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/

Over here in Australia, the rules require you to design to certain limits, if you have three axles, then they assume at some stage, someone will load it up to the maximum. Who knows, your "old retired couple with lots of money" going to camp out on the beach may want to carry their solid gold bars around with them

For Terraliner, unless you are going with much wider tyres than 14.00's you are limited to 6.7 tons + 2x 9 tons = 24.7ton, so you are pretty close to GVM anyway.

I have not seen any concept layout of the Terraliner, they may be somewhere, but it is a long thread. Maybe it is time to go from "Architectural" to "Engineering" modes. A couple of rough plans and elevations with just simple blocks for each of these systems, and the slide outs, beds, living area, outside decks and solar awning, etc. This will go a long way to explain where you are going to fit all great features you have linked to.

Maninga · Nov 10, 2015

I'd be careful with the number of batteries put onboard too. They weigh quite a bit, even in LifePO4 form. If worried about replacing a 1445kg engine with batteries, you're not going to get much range. Electric range might be a concern. Some of my calculations might be a little off (currently rather cold here and my minds on other things), but general gist is here.

A couple of considerations
0.5C means battery bank discharge over 2 hours (1/2 bank per hour), quicker can shorten life. Makes a difference in EV
Discharge of 80% usable is recommended maximum, risk damaging cells/shortening life/unbalancing cells.
http://www.ev-power.com.au/-TECHNICAL-ARTICLES-.html

Energy density for LifePO4
http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm
" gravimetric energy density of LiFePO4 battery is 130Wh/kg"

I'll let you figure out bank size needed. Working on 100kw
100/130 = 7.69kg/KW * 100 = 769 kg for bare energy density (not including housings or the like).
If using a commercial battery bank such as Winston, will look at their 1000ah pack.
http://www.evworks.com.au/winston-battery-bat-lfp1000ahc-1000ah-lifepo4-cell
Dimensions: 560×130×356(mm)
Weight: 40.596 kg
1000 * 3.5 (charge I'm maxing my batteries at) = 3.5kw
100/3.5 = 29. Logically needs to round to multiple of 6v, I'll use 30 cells as basis. 30 * 40.596 = 1.2 tonnes.

That's a lot of battery either way you look at it.

biotect · Nov 10, 2015

Hi Haf-E,

Gosh, I had just barely finished the written text for the series, and you posted!!

Your disagreement is very well taken indeed. I overstated, given that I knew (for instance) that a hybrid vehicle like the BMW i8 still has a gearbox of sorts, even for its electric motor. But as you suggest, the single-axle gear-boxes connected to three separate electric motors would still be smaller and lighter than a typical ICE drivetrain for a large, AWD truck.

My main purpose in all of this, needless to say, was to challenge Ian's weight guestimate of 30 tons. It's possible that Ian was merely trying to provoke me by throwing out that number. If so, well he succeeded!!.....:sombrero: ... I was wondering when I should break the news about my post-graduation design trajectory, and explain how the Paradise Motorhomes expedition vehicle has inspired me to take a whole new direction, and scrap the 10.5 or 10.75 m size-liimit. But even a 12 m motorhome, which Ian has correctly hypothesized is now my intended target-size, would not need to weigh 30 tons.

If/when you have the time, it would be great if you might be willing to speculate a bit more about the TerraLiner drive-train power requirement, using the design parameters that I've now specified: 12 m long, 21 - 23 tons, 24 tons maximum, 6x6, two Jenoptik diesel generators producing 240 KW, and some size of battery bank, so that the TerraLiner might travel on electric power alone for 1 - 2 hours at most, and not more. Also, don't forget that the TerraLiner will also be towing a three-axle draw-bar trailer.

Ian did some calculations on the basis of which he claimed that the TerraLiner's battery would have to weigh 20 tons!! That struck me as quite unbelievable, and suggested to me that perhaps (?) Ian does not completely understand how serial hybrid technology works? So it would be good to get input on this question from you as well, because you are an electrical engineer, and you understand hybrid technology very well.

Here are some specific questions:

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(1) Given these design parameters, how large do you think the three electric motors need to be?

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(2) In the course of normal driving, do you agree with egn that 240 KW produced by the Jenoptik diesel generators would be more than enough to keep the battery pack topped up, given that there will also be regenerative braking?

As egn so brilliantly explained, a hybrid simply does not need the diesel generators to produce peak power, because the battery pack handles that. So even if a Newell has a 600 HP engine, the Jenoptiks do not need to produce anything even remotely like that. Rather, all they need to produce is enough power to keep the battery pack topped up during normal driving; and enough such that when the TerrraLiner climbs an incline, instead of draining in 1 - 2 hours in all-electric mode, the battery pack would drain much more slowly, taking perhaps 6 - 10 hours to drain in hybrid mode, with the generators constantly feeding it more juice. Hope that made sense.

Basically, the question is whether 240 KW produced by two Jenoptik generators strikes you as sufficient. Ian revised his estimate in the previous post, suggesting (if I am reading him correctly) that 248 KW of continuous power would have to be coming from the Jenoptik generators, in order to simply propel the TerraLiner along a flat road at 100 kmh, with no headwind. Do you agree with this?

Ian: that is a very interesting calculation, and many, many thanks for re-running the numbers. It would be terrific if you and Haf-E could kick this stuff around for a bit, comparing ideas and assumptions. BTW: 8 tons for the TOAD-garage trailer also sounds right.

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(3) Here it might serve to note that the Jenoptik generator was designed as an APU to be used in a "dual mode" electric trolley bus, so that the bus could drive under its own power when disconnected from an electric overhead line. So the Jenoptik producing 120 KW was designed to be adequate to power a bus-sized vehicle that perhaps only has super-capacitors, and not even a lith-ion battery pack. In other words, I get the feeling that the Jenoptik was designed to power the electric motors of a trolley bus fairly directly, providing enough juice for such a bus to accelerate and climb inclines, even without the buffer of a battery pack. Suggesting that 2 x 120 Kw, or 240 KW, should be enough for the TerraLiner, configured as a true serial hybrid with battery pack buffer.

But Haf-E, it would be great to hear your thoughts on this, and whether or not you agree with Ian's more recent calculation.

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(4) When taking all of this into account, how large do you think the lith-ion battery pack needs to be, simply in order to suffice for driving, acting as an adequate "buffer" to handle peak power needs, i.e accelerating, climbing inclines, etc.? Do you think that a 100 KW battery pack should prove sufficient? And how much do you think it would weigh, today? If you were willing to guess, how much do you think such a battery pack would weigh circa 2020?

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(5) What would you consider an ideal battery pack size when stationary and glamping? If TerraLiner energy consumption were 20 KW during peak days with the AC, AWGs, and Watermaker running full tilt, then a 100 KW battery pack would last 5 days. But if average energy consumption were 10 KW per day, which egn seems to think is more realistic (at least for frugal, anti-A/C Germans.....:sombrero

, then a 100 KW battery pack would suffice for 10 days.

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Again, any and all feedback from you on these questions would be very much appreciated!

All best wishes,

Biotect

PS -- Ian: I've put off sharing plans, even the roughest schematics, because I didn't want to the thread to get too "locked in" or "attached" to one particular design concept, before I had fully worked out what I thought the TerraLiner's operational requirements are.

In architecture, architects always start with "the program": the intended function and use of a building. It's sometimes very frustrating for architects when they encounter a client who has only a very vague and nebulous concept of their intended "program". And so one of the jobs of an architect, even before committing pencil to paper, is often to figure out better than the client can themselves, what the client actually wants and needs. That's why I've been so focused of late on all the operational aspects of TerraLiner design. In the case of a motorhome like the TerraLiner, the "program" is how the TerraLiner will be used, and by whom, to do what. It may seem obvious to the typical middle-aged participant on ExPo what the operational requirements of a globally capable motorhome should be. But actually, they are not obvious at all. They only seem obvious to someone who simply assumes that all expedition motorhomes should be mid-sized compromises that split the difference between sojourning and exploring.

I still need to kick around this business of hammering out the TerraLiner's "program" a bit longer, and needless to say, I've got a huge backlog of posts that I need to complete. So I will need for you to give me a rain-check on rudimentary CAD for at least a few more months.

In the meantime, as suggested, it would be great if you and Haf-E could debate the hybrid issue a bit. Haf-E has been a TerraLiner hybrid advocate more or less from the beginning, whereas you seem much more skeptical, and possibly very against a hybrid drive train? So that should make for an interesting and fruitful exchange!! You both know how to run spreadsheets and crunch numbers, so as long as you keep your exchanges evidential and reasonable, based on carefully crafted arguments and full exchange of information and data, your debate would be something valuable to us all.

Finally: many thanks for all the links!! I especially look forward to reading the blog of the couple who camped on beaches for months at a time....:sunny:

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