The only advice I can give is to ask them. They spoke about them on some conference, so they may be willing to talk.
TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain
- Thread starter biotect
- Start date
biotect
Designer
UHi safas,
While you are here, and while the discovery is still fresh, thought I should share something interesting that I recently learned about FPB boats.
**************************************************
“Mostly Silent”, Generator-Free Camping: The FPB Precedent
**************************************************
Turns out that FPB boats have set themselves exactly the same design goal as the TerraLiner, namely, “mostly silent, generator-free sojourning” when stationary. In other words, turns out that the idea is not silly or extreme, it's not original to me, and its has already been implemented in a number of FPB boats. Here are some excerpts from various websites:
See http://www.boatinternational.com/yachts-for-sale/fpb784--80919 .
See http://www.setsail.com/fpb-78-the-dream-machine-new/ .
See http://www.berthon.co.uk/berthon-blog/yacht-sales-brokerage-yachts/eco-yachting/ and http://www.setsail.com/fpb-97-code-name-wicked/ .
As you might guess, I am tickled pink by this discovery. The idea of using massive solar + a battery bank to seriously cut down on generator time, while maintaining an energy-intensive lifestyle (especially when the A/C is running), has already been implemented. So I am now curious to find out more regarding the detailed specifications. For instance, average ouput per annum of FPB's solar arrays (the panels used so far seem to be slightly older models made by SunPower, rated at 320 KW each -- see http://us.sunpower.com/sites/sunpow...35-345-residential-solar-panels-datasheet.pdf ); the KW draw of all electric systems including Air-conditioining when stationary, and when the Heat Index outside is 90; the length of time maximum draw can be sustained via batteries alone, etc. etc.
So too, it would be really good to know how this experiment by FPB boats has worked in practice, in terms of different boat sizes, different generator array sizes, different latitudes, heating versus cooling, and so on. The experience of FPB boats now constitutes one of the best possible data-sets of how “boondocking using just solar” might work out, in the real world. Although these are yachts, their experience and data would be directly applicable to the TerraLiner, especially their experience using solar on polar voyages (the Arctic and Antarctic), and their experience using solar on the equator.
Was also wondering if you caught the Wynns’ video posted on the previous page, titled ”Off Grid Solar Powered RV Air Conditioning -- It is Possible?" -- see http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/off-grid-solar-rv-air-conditioning :
I lucked upon this video because YouTube recommended it. Don’t know how YouTube figures out what videos to recommend, but gosh, since this service kicked in a while back, some of its recommendations have been fantastic, and spot on. Which is a bit spooky, because this means that YouTube is building up an electronic “profile” of my interests that’s a bit too accurate……:Wow1:
Now the Wynns' initial experiment with A/C run completely off solar was not all that demanding. When they ran their test in Southern California the temperature was only 80°F, and they did not run the air-conditioning for that long. This certainly was not a week-long or month-long test running air-conditioning on the equator when the heat-index rises above 95°F, and good solar DNI is only intermittent, because it's raining all the time; and when it's not raining, the air is heavy with haze. Even still, it's interesting to see what a Class A motor home can accomplish with a relatively small array, about 950 kW, and a lithium battery pack rated as 700 amp hours.
All best wishes
Biotect
While you are here, and while the discovery is still fresh, thought I should share something interesting that I recently learned about FPB boats.
**************************************************
“Mostly Silent”, Generator-Free Camping: The FPB Precedent
**************************************************
Turns out that FPB boats have set themselves exactly the same design goal as the TerraLiner, namely, “mostly silent, generator-free sojourning” when stationary. In other words, turns out that the idea is not silly or extreme, it's not original to me, and its has already been implemented in a number of FPB boats. Here are some excerpts from various websites:
See http://www.boatinternational.com/yachts-for-sale/fpb784--80919 .
See http://www.setsail.com/fpb-78-the-dream-machine-new/ .
See http://www.berthon.co.uk/berthon-blog/yacht-sales-brokerage-yachts/eco-yachting/ and http://www.setsail.com/fpb-97-code-name-wicked/ .
As you might guess, I am tickled pink by this discovery. The idea of using massive solar + a battery bank to seriously cut down on generator time, while maintaining an energy-intensive lifestyle (especially when the A/C is running), has already been implemented. So I am now curious to find out more regarding the detailed specifications. For instance, average ouput per annum of FPB's solar arrays (the panels used so far seem to be slightly older models made by SunPower, rated at 320 KW each -- see http://us.sunpower.com/sites/sunpow...35-345-residential-solar-panels-datasheet.pdf ); the KW draw of all electric systems including Air-conditioining when stationary, and when the Heat Index outside is 90; the length of time maximum draw can be sustained via batteries alone, etc. etc.
So too, it would be really good to know how this experiment by FPB boats has worked in practice, in terms of different boat sizes, different generator array sizes, different latitudes, heating versus cooling, and so on. The experience of FPB boats now constitutes one of the best possible data-sets of how “boondocking using just solar” might work out, in the real world. Although these are yachts, their experience and data would be directly applicable to the TerraLiner, especially their experience using solar on polar voyages (the Arctic and Antarctic), and their experience using solar on the equator.
Was also wondering if you caught the Wynns’ video posted on the previous page, titled ”Off Grid Solar Powered RV Air Conditioning -- It is Possible?" -- see http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/off-grid-solar-rv-air-conditioning :
I lucked upon this video because YouTube recommended it. Don’t know how YouTube figures out what videos to recommend, but gosh, since this service kicked in a while back, some of its recommendations have been fantastic, and spot on. Which is a bit spooky, because this means that YouTube is building up an electronic “profile” of my interests that’s a bit too accurate……:Wow1:
Now the Wynns' initial experiment with A/C run completely off solar was not all that demanding. When they ran their test in Southern California the temperature was only 80°F, and they did not run the air-conditioning for that long. This certainly was not a week-long or month-long test running air-conditioning on the equator when the heat-index rises above 95°F, and good solar DNI is only intermittent, because it's raining all the time; and when it's not raining, the air is heavy with haze. Even still, it's interesting to see what a Class A motor home can accomplish with a relatively small array, about 950 kW, and a lithium battery pack rated as 700 amp hours.
All best wishes
Biotect
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Iain_U1250
Explorer
Must be 950W, if they had 950kW they would not have any problem. I know a guy who runs an a/c system off his camper batteries, check out this thread. http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/83962-NPS-Camper-Build/page4
He runs 240V system throughout his truck as he has found them more efficient than 12 or 24V one, his a/c is 240V and so is his fridge.
He runs 240V system throughout his truck as he has found them more efficient than 12 or 24V one, his a/c is 240V and so is his fridge.
Silverado08
Observer
A pdf about the most popular solar racer motor:
http://www.ata.org.au/wp-content/uploads/marand_high_efficiency_motor.pdf
Just 12 kW peak and 5 kW continuous, so not directly applicable to TerraLiner (even with several per wheel), but I still find it interesting.
http://www.ata.org.au/wp-content/uploads/marand_high_efficiency_motor.pdf
Just 12 kW peak and 5 kW continuous, so not directly applicable to TerraLiner (even with several per wheel), but I still find it interesting.
biotect
Designer
Hi Iain, Silverado, safas, Haf-E, Libransser, backwoods, and all others following the thread....
Sorry that it has taken a while to respond. The whole "Vavilovian mimicry" idea was a bit of a design breakthrough, and has provided a very clear idea as to where to take the exterior styling of the TerraLiner. A whole bunch of stuff fell neatly into place, and for the last three or four weeks have been constantly sketching and working stuff through in CAD.
Will respond and will also "fill in" images for previous posts anon, but first, in a week or two from now, will post a series about 300 kW generators, the other thing that I've been working on.....:sombrero:
All best wishes,
Biotect
Sorry that it has taken a while to respond. The whole "Vavilovian mimicry" idea was a bit of a design breakthrough, and has provided a very clear idea as to where to take the exterior styling of the TerraLiner. A whole bunch of stuff fell neatly into place, and for the last three or four weeks have been constantly sketching and working stuff through in CAD.
Will respond and will also "fill in" images for previous posts anon, but first, in a week or two from now, will post a series about 300 kW generators, the other thing that I've been working on.....:sombrero:
All best wishes,
Biotect
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Here's interesting discussion about a certain class 8 turbine-powered serial-hybrid truck:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...ompany-reveals-its-class-8-tractor-33808.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...ompany-reveals-its-class-8-tractor-33808.html
biotect
Designer
Hi Safas,
Yes, must be spam.
The following is an excerpt from something that I wrote to Joe Maninga, in reply to a private message that he sent me. It explains why I've been inactive on the thread of late, even though I've continued working on the TerraLiner:
In short, further posting in this thread -- and all the more so, asking ExPo to create a subsection with multiple threads on different aspects of TerraLiner design -- is still very much on the cards. But there are times when it makes much more sense to research, think, and design on my own for a while, a bit "detached" from immediate feedback.
All best wishes,
Biotect
Yes, must be spam.
The following is an excerpt from something that I wrote to Joe Maninga, in reply to a private message that he sent me. It explains why I've been inactive on the thread of late, even though I've continued working on the TerraLiner:
In short, further posting in this thread -- and all the more so, asking ExPo to create a subsection with multiple threads on different aspects of TerraLiner design -- is still very much on the cards. But there are times when it makes much more sense to research, think, and design on my own for a while, a bit "detached" from immediate feedback.
All best wishes,
Biotect
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It would be valuable if you posted some, even very rough, estimation of how much time will you spend in the silent mode.
biotect
Designer
Hi safas,
Ok, sure: around November or December of this year.
Remember, I'm just one person, occasionally assisted by friends, trying to think through a fairly radical "concept vehicle", more or less for fun. Simply because the design issues that the TerraLiner forces me to think through are tremendously interesting.
I can go forwards only at a certain pace, and sometimes having to respond to the preconceptions and rigid thinking of some thread participants, consumes more time than it's worth. Not everyone is as enthusiastically constructive as you, safas! Like Joe, you've been a tremendous help and inspiration. But at times I've found myself getting sucked into debates with other particupants, debates that in hindsight were not very productive. A balance needs to be struck between maintaining the thread, and researching, thinking, and designing on my own.
Furthermore, in terms of the overall time-line, there is really no rush. Why? Well, because one of the central elements in the project, massive commercially available solar power that would give the TerraLiner extreme boondocking and off-grid capability, has shown itself to improve year-on-year only in an incremental, linear way. The progress in solar cell efficiency per square meter has not increased exponentially, as per the processing power of computer chips. Rather, what has dropped logarithmically is the price of solar cells per kW, instead of their efficiency.
This has been great for homeowners, who have the roof surface area necessary to install a big spread of panels, now that they are more affordable. But in vehicular applications surface area has always been limited, so more of an improvement in efficiency over the last 40 years would have been desirable. Unfortunately, a dramatically improving, exponential efficiency curve hasn't happened yet, which is why most solar racers still look like Ping-Pong tables. And why even if the TerraLiner were a real vehicle built in 2020, it would still need a powerful diesel generator and large battery bank. Solar alone, even with coverage as broad as possible via drop-down pergola awnings, just won't provide enough power, especially if the TerraLiner has subsantial A/C.
Indeed, given the historically very slow pace of efficiency improvements in commercially available solar cells (i.e. not gallium arsenide), I figure that there will be not much difference figuring out the solar side of things in 2025, versus 2016. Other technologies are likely to improve much faster, for instance batteries and electric motors (thanks to Tesla), or comparatively lightweight high-output diesel generators (thanks to Whisperpower). But even there, the changes will only be incremental, not revolutionary.
So my perspective is now that the "engineering constraints" on TerraLiner design are fairly clear, and what's possible from an engineering point of view won't be that different in 2025. Although this might be very depressing for an engineer to read or accept, as a designer it's kind of nice, because one can mull over all the design aspects in a leisurely way, not too worried that a big engineering breakthrough will suddenly change the goalposts. It just won't, not for at least 10 years, if history is anything to go by.
Ergo, it seemed an opportune moment to focus on TerraLiner exterior design for Vavilovian mimicry. But that's really something I want to first develop on my own.....
All best wishes,
Biotect
Ok, sure: around November or December of this year.
Remember, I'm just one person, occasionally assisted by friends, trying to think through a fairly radical "concept vehicle", more or less for fun. Simply because the design issues that the TerraLiner forces me to think through are tremendously interesting.
I can go forwards only at a certain pace, and sometimes having to respond to the preconceptions and rigid thinking of some thread participants, consumes more time than it's worth. Not everyone is as enthusiastically constructive as you, safas! Like Joe, you've been a tremendous help and inspiration. But at times I've found myself getting sucked into debates with other particupants, debates that in hindsight were not very productive. A balance needs to be struck between maintaining the thread, and researching, thinking, and designing on my own.
Furthermore, in terms of the overall time-line, there is really no rush. Why? Well, because one of the central elements in the project, massive commercially available solar power that would give the TerraLiner extreme boondocking and off-grid capability, has shown itself to improve year-on-year only in an incremental, linear way. The progress in solar cell efficiency per square meter has not increased exponentially, as per the processing power of computer chips. Rather, what has dropped logarithmically is the price of solar cells per kW, instead of their efficiency.
This has been great for homeowners, who have the roof surface area necessary to install a big spread of panels, now that they are more affordable. But in vehicular applications surface area has always been limited, so more of an improvement in efficiency over the last 40 years would have been desirable. Unfortunately, a dramatically improving, exponential efficiency curve hasn't happened yet, which is why most solar racers still look like Ping-Pong tables. And why even if the TerraLiner were a real vehicle built in 2020, it would still need a powerful diesel generator and large battery bank. Solar alone, even with coverage as broad as possible via drop-down pergola awnings, just won't provide enough power, especially if the TerraLiner has subsantial A/C.
Indeed, given the historically very slow pace of efficiency improvements in commercially available solar cells (i.e. not gallium arsenide), I figure that there will be not much difference figuring out the solar side of things in 2025, versus 2016. Other technologies are likely to improve much faster, for instance batteries and electric motors (thanks to Tesla), or comparatively lightweight high-output diesel generators (thanks to Whisperpower). But even there, the changes will only be incremental, not revolutionary.
So my perspective is now that the "engineering constraints" on TerraLiner design are fairly clear, and what's possible from an engineering point of view won't be that different in 2025. Although this might be very depressing for an engineer to read or accept, as a designer it's kind of nice, because one can mull over all the design aspects in a leisurely way, not too worried that a big engineering breakthrough will suddenly change the goalposts. It just won't, not for at least 10 years, if history is anything to go by.
Ergo, it seemed an opportune moment to focus on TerraLiner exterior design for Vavilovian mimicry. But that's really something I want to first develop on my own.....
All best wishes,
Biotect
biotect
Designer
Hi safas,
Ok, sure: around November or December of this year.
Remember, I'm just one person, occasionally assisted by friends, trying to think through a fairly radical "concept vehicle", more or less for fun. Simply because the design issues that the TerraLiner forces me to think through are tremendously interesting.
I can go forwards only at a certain pace, and sometimes having to respond to the preconceptions and rigid thinking of some thread participants, consumes more time than it's worth. Not everyone is as enthusiastically constructive as you, safas! Like Joe, you've been a tremendous help and inspiration. But at times I've found myself getting sucked into debates with other particupants, debates that in hindsight were not very productive. A balance needs to be struck between maintaining the thread, and researching, thinking, and designing on my own.
Furthermore, in terms of the overall time-line, there is really no rush. Why? Well, because one of the central elements in the project, massive commercially available solar power that would give the TerraLiner extreme boondocking and off-grid capability, has shown itself to improve year-on-year only in an incremental, linear way. The progress in solar cell efficiency per square meter has not increased exponentially, as per the processing power of computer chips. Rather, what has dropped logarithmically is the price of solar cells per kW, instead of their efficiency.
This has been great for homeowners, who have the roof surface area necessary to install a big spread of panels, now that they are more affordable. But in vehicular applications surface area has always been limited, so more of an improvement in efficiency over the last 40 years would have been desirable. Unfortunately, a dramatically improving, exponential efficiency curve hasn't happened yet, which is why most solar racers still look like Ping-Pong tables. And why even if the TerraLiner were a real vehicle built in 2020, it would still need a powerful diesel generator and large battery bank. Solar alone, even with coverage as broad as possible via drop-down pergola awnings, just won't provide enough power, especially if the TerraLiner has subsantial A/C.
Indeed, given the historically very slow pace of efficiency improvements in commercially available solar cells (i.e. not gallium arsenide), I figure that there will be not much difference figuring out the solar side of things in 2025, versus 2016. Other technologies are likely to improve much faster, for instance batteries and electric motors (thanks to Tesla), or comparatively lightweight high-output diesel generators (thanks to Whisperpower). But even there, the changes will only be incremental, not revolutionary.
So my perspective is now that the "engineering constraints" on TerraLiner design are fairly clear, and what's possible from an engineering point of view won't be that different in 2025. Although this might be very depressing for an engineer to read or accept, as a designer it's kind of nice, because one can mull over all the design aspects in a leisurely way, not too worried that a big engineering breakthrough will suddenly change the goalposts. It just won't, not for at least 10 years, if history is anything to go by.
Ergo, it seemed an opportune moment to focus on TerraLiner exterior design for Vavilovian mimicry. But that's really something I want to first develop on my own.....
All best wishes,
Biotect
Ok, sure: around November or December of this year.
Remember, I'm just one person, occasionally assisted by friends, trying to think through a fairly radical "concept vehicle", more or less for fun. Simply because the design issues that the TerraLiner forces me to think through are tremendously interesting.
I can go forwards only at a certain pace, and sometimes having to respond to the preconceptions and rigid thinking of some thread participants, consumes more time than it's worth. Not everyone is as enthusiastically constructive as you, safas! Like Joe, you've been a tremendous help and inspiration. But at times I've found myself getting sucked into debates with other particupants, debates that in hindsight were not very productive. A balance needs to be struck between maintaining the thread, and researching, thinking, and designing on my own.
Furthermore, in terms of the overall time-line, there is really no rush. Why? Well, because one of the central elements in the project, massive commercially available solar power that would give the TerraLiner extreme boondocking and off-grid capability, has shown itself to improve year-on-year only in an incremental, linear way. The progress in solar cell efficiency per square meter has not increased exponentially, as per the processing power of computer chips. Rather, what has dropped logarithmically is the price of solar cells per kW, instead of their efficiency.
This has been great for homeowners, who have the roof surface area necessary to install a big spread of panels, now that they are more affordable. But in vehicular applications surface area has always been limited, so more of an improvement in efficiency over the last 40 years would have been desirable. Unfortunately, a dramatically improving, exponential efficiency curve hasn't happened yet, which is why most solar racers still look like Ping-Pong tables. And why even if the TerraLiner were a real vehicle built in 2020, it would still need a powerful diesel generator and large battery bank. Solar alone, even with coverage as broad as possible via drop-down pergola awnings, just won't provide enough power, especially if the TerraLiner has subsantial A/C.
Indeed, given the historically very slow pace of efficiency improvements in commercially available solar cells (i.e. not gallium arsenide), I figure that there will be not much difference figuring out the solar side of things in 2025, versus 2016. Other technologies are likely to improve much faster, for instance batteries and electric motors (thanks to Tesla), or comparatively lightweight high-output diesel generators (thanks to Whisperpower). But even there, the changes will only be incremental, not revolutionary.
So my perspective is now that the "engineering constraints" on TerraLiner design are fairly clear, and what's possible from an engineering point of view won't be that different in 2025. Although this might be very depressing for an engineer to read or accept, as a designer it's kind of nice, because one can mull over all the design aspects in a leisurely way, not too worried that a big engineering breakthrough will suddenly change the goalposts. It just won't, not for at least 10 years, if history is anything to go by.
Ergo, it seemed an opportune moment to focus on TerraLiner exterior design for Vavilovian mimicry. But that's really something I want to first develop on my own.....
All best wishes,
Biotect
Step outside of the box. Imagine designing the vehicle if you only had to provide enough interior heat to keep all the systems from freezing and NOTHING more. Imagine if you had a utilities compartment inside the vehicle that was even more well insulated than the rest of the vehicle. This compartment would be insulated so well that it would require a very small amount of energy to keep it warm. The compartment would contain the fresh water tank, batteries, heater pads, electrical stuff and possibly a gray water or black water tank if desired. A couple of warming pads - such as those provided by UltraHeat - would keep the entire compartment warm. Maybe a small electrical heater to supplement it, if needed. The only thing leaving the unit that would be at risk of freezing would be water lines. These lines could be set-up so that they were either heated, or so that they never held water in them until the water system was used. Either way, it wouldn't be hard to keep water lines from freezing especially if the sink was close to the unit. The toilet would be a cassette style and could use antifreeze or some other type of solution in it to prevent freezing. Or you could use a composting toilet with a built-in heater. Floors could have radiant heating coils run through them, if desired, to keep the floors warm (a very small amount of electricity).
Now assume you've done all that. You could then have an electrical heater installed in the camper which would heat the entire camper, but the vehicle would need to be run to achieve this (or the camper plugged in). A build like this is possible now, today, relatively cheap. One might say that is not a good build, because the camper would be cold inside - but your body is a built in furnace and provides heat, and you must wrap your body in clothing to stay warm. It's incredible inefficient to try and heat a huge space, such as an entire RV, when your body can stay warm by itself with a few layers of clothing. That would be like trying to heat an entire tent when you are camping instead of just using a -30 degree sleeping bag.
At night time you would leave the internal heating systems running to keep all systems (water, batteries, etc) working. You would then be warm in bed with your sleeping bag and internal heater (body heat). If desired, you could add a mattress heating pad to the bed to provide radiant heat upwards into your body. In this fashion, your RV would be sustainable at nearly any temperature, even -50. At -50, all the systems would still work, solar panels would still produce electricity, batteries would be in the heated compartment and so you could even use lithium ion batteries. Your bed would be warmed by a heating pad. This design requires zero fossil fuels, zero generators, and runs entirely off solar.
And in the event you decide you want full heat, you can always have it, you just need to run the vehicle's engine as mentioned.
Bottom line: For a truly revolutionary vehicle, trying to heat air mass is a waste of money, time and resources.
Now assume you've done all that. You could then have an electrical heater installed in the camper which would heat the entire camper, but the vehicle would need to be run to achieve this (or the camper plugged in). A build like this is possible now, today, relatively cheap. One might say that is not a good build, because the camper would be cold inside - but your body is a built in furnace and provides heat, and you must wrap your body in clothing to stay warm. It's incredible inefficient to try and heat a huge space, such as an entire RV, when your body can stay warm by itself with a few layers of clothing. That would be like trying to heat an entire tent when you are camping instead of just using a -30 degree sleeping bag.
At night time you would leave the internal heating systems running to keep all systems (water, batteries, etc) working. You would then be warm in bed with your sleeping bag and internal heater (body heat). If desired, you could add a mattress heating pad to the bed to provide radiant heat upwards into your body. In this fashion, your RV would be sustainable at nearly any temperature, even -50. At -50, all the systems would still work, solar panels would still produce electricity, batteries would be in the heated compartment and so you could even use lithium ion batteries. Your bed would be warmed by a heating pad. This design requires zero fossil fuels, zero generators, and runs entirely off solar.
And in the event you decide you want full heat, you can always have it, you just need to run the vehicle's engine as mentioned.
Bottom line: For a truly revolutionary vehicle, trying to heat air mass is a waste of money, time and resources.