TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain
- Thread starter biotect
- Start date
biotect
Designer
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST
************************************
Across India and Arrival in Mumbai
This gallery of photographs should have provided some sense of the exceptional quality of imagery produced by the "Silk Trail" Hybrid expedition. But ExPo has a 500 KB-per-image size limit, so it's impossible to do these photographs justice here. Downloaded directly from Landrover-Britain, many of these photographs were large, high-resolution files in the 2.5 MB - 5 MB range. For the originals see the image-packs referenced earlier in post #365, under C. "Silk Trail" Photo Galleries.
************************************
15. Landrover-Britain's "Silk Trail" Hybrid Expedition, 2013: Professional Video
************************************
This is a selection of the best videos of the "Silk Trail" expedition. The first four videos cover legs 1, 2, 3, and 4, up to the mountains in Kygrystan. The fifth video is a "Finale", with footage in the first third re-capping the previous four videos, after which it moves on to China, the Tibetan plateau, and India. At one point notice that an altimeter reads 5,379 m. The sixth video is a kind of "Conclusion", with narration, while the seventh and eighth videos are automotive-magazine reviews of the Range Rover Hybrid.
[video=youtube;sEBMLgR5VBs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEBMLgR5VBs [/video]
[video=youtube;x_87Hsqlwh0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_87Hsqlwh0 [/video] [video=youtube;D8YudTZrCTU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8YudTZrCTU [/video] [video=youtube;T5q9PzcMS30]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5q9PzcMS30 [/video]
[video=youtube;ThfF_mH3xSo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThfF_mH3xSo [/video]
This is a general summary in German:
And this is a very short summary in English:
[video=youtube;3IEGZI6J1CE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IEGZI6J1CE [/video]
Some of these are available more directly from Landrover's website, where they can be downloaded -- see for instance http://newsroom.jaguarlandrover.com/en-gb/land-rover/videos/video?id=69522 ,http://newsroom.jaguarlandrover.com/en-in/land-rover/videos/video?id=71798 , and http://newsroom.jaguarlandrover.com/en-in/land-rover/videos/video?id=70320 .
************************************
16. The Chunnel, Tibet, and Contemporary Landrover Imagination
************************************
The "Silk Trail" Hybrid expedition was British, and yet like the German "Silk Road" expedition, it viewed the Tibetan plateau as a desirable location for field-testing and PR photography. In other words, even though Britain is still a country that is only partly European, British “automotive imagination” now seems to encompass the Tibetan plateau as worthwhile objective. And perhaps British automotive imagination now includes the plateau, because Britain is, very gradually and almost imperceptibly, becoming a country more oriented towards Eurasia?
To be sure, like other Anglosphere countries, Britain is an island-nation surrounded by a moat of water, and only shares a land-border with the Republic of Ireland, territory it once ruled. The United States is a continent-sized island that shares land borders with just two, and one of those is not really a "foreign" country at all, i.e. it's the 51st state called "Canada" -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/51st_state . And yes, I have a Canadian passport.....
..By way of contrast, France shares land-borders with 8 countries, and Germany shares land-borders with no less than 9 -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_land_borders .But Britain's “splendid isolation” was forever violated 20 years ago with the completion of the Chunnel, i.e. the Channel Tunnel. Ever since it has become possible to drive directly from Birmingham to Beijing, by land-transport the whole way – see http://www.scmp.com/news/world/arti...-channel-tunnels-doubters-quieted-its-success , http://gulfnews.com/news/world/20-years-on-british-fears-over-channel-tunnel-lost-at-sea-1.1327871 , http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10804227/Twenty-years-of-Chunnel-vision.html , http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/45...ench-connection-celebrates-20-years-of-travel , http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27239849 , http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27247032 , http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ride-high-speed-rail-expands/article18473498/ , http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20140506/world/20-years-of-Chunnel-.517883 , http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Chan...rthday-today/story-21062447-detail/story.html , http://gadgetnibble.com/2014/05/06/our-love-with-france-chunnel-20-years-on/ , http://globalengineeringnews.com/chunnel-anniversary-celebrated/1840 , http://sourceable.net/engineering-marvel-celebrates-20th-birthday-channel-tunnel/ , http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/chunnel-celebrates-20th-birthday , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel , http://www.chunnel.com , http://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/home/ , http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/23772/frank-p-davidson/chunnel , http://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...e/a-quarter-century-of-anglo-french-relations , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splendid_isolation .
As the Telegraph darkly reminds Britons (the Telegraph is an anti-EU newspaper):
See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10804227/Twenty-years-of-Chunnel-vision.html .
Personally speaking, I love car ferries, so when crossing the channel I've mostly taken the boat, and have used the Chunnel just twice. But the mere existence of the Chunnel has undermined the English channel as geographic and psychological barrier, and central London is now just 2 hours by TGV "Eurostar" train from central Paris.
The Series 1 Landrovers used by the Oxford and Cambridge Far Eastern Expedition in 1955 - 1956 still had to be airlifted across the channel; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_and_Cambridge_Far_Eastern_Expedition , and post #365 above. But I wonder how Landrover's “Silk Trail” Hybrid expedition in 2013 made the crossing to France? Did the Range Rover Hybrids piggyback on railway cars through the Chunnel, as have millions of other cars, trucks, and buses over the past two decades? See http://www.cnet.com/news/the-chunnel-is-far-more-than-eurostar/ and http://www.eurotunnelgroup.com/uk/eurotunnel-group/operations/our-performance/ .
So let's just say that British “Landrover imagination” now vividly encompasses central Eurasia and Tibet, whereas previously it tended to conjure up images mostly of Africa.
************************************
17. Landrover: A Eurasian Company
************************************
At a more mundane level, it is also possible that the PR team at Landrover seized upon Europe-to-Mumbai expeditions for one very important marketing reason: because Landrover sales in Russia, China and India have grown at a phenomenal rate. Over 20 % of worldwide Landrover sales are now in China. So what better way to drum up more enthusiasm in Russia, China, and India for Landrovers as premium SUV products, than by conducting expeditions that cross these countries? Crossing the Tibetan plateau has the added benefit that it might convince wealthy Chinese entrepreneurs living in Tibet to buy a Landrover, because it can handle the altitude.
Last but not least, Europe-to-Mumbai expeditions may reflect new ownership. Jaguar/Landrover is now owned by Tata Motors, an Indian multinational automotive group -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Motors , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_Land_Rover , http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2014/02/10/jaguar-land-rover-push-tata-motors-to-new-heights/ , http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/31/b...in-jaguar-land-rover.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 , http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...gamble-pays-off-as-big-cat-purrs-at-last.html , http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7313380.stm , http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=4528213 , http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/26/officially-official-tata-buys-jaguar-land-rover-for-2-3-billio/ , http://www.caranddriver.com/news/tata-buys-jaguar-and-land-rover-from-ford-car-news , and http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303997604579240033481099004 .
Since Tata purchased Jaguar/Landrover in 2008 the company has flourished, and in recent years has posted record sales and profits -- see http://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/may/26/jaguar-land-rover-sees-sales-soar , http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/may/29/jaguar-land-rover-record-profits , http://www.bbc.com/news/business-22703105 , http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/ne...ing/jaguar-land-rover-announce-record-7190746 , http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/jaguar-land-rover-records-sales-and-profits-boom , http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/business/jaguar-land-rover-reports-record-7188993 , http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/bus...guar-land-rover-posts-record-breaking-7189098 , and http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/10863256/Jaguar-Land-Rover-annual-profits-hit-record-2.5bn.html .
************************************
18. Conclusion: Why Tibetan Altitude Matters
************************************
To recap: in 2012/2013, Landrover ran no less than 3 major expeditions across central Eurasia, and it is easy to get them confused:
- "One millionth Discovery Expedition", 2012, milestone marker and charity fundraising, Birmingham to Beijing
- "Siedenstrasse" or "Silk Road Tour", 2013, Landrover-Germany expedition, PR adventure holiday, Berlin to Mumbai, crossed the Tibetan plateau
- "Silk Trail Hybrid Expedition", 2013, technology testing, Birmingham to Mumbai, crossed the Tibetan plateau
Then add various "Istanbul to Kathmandu" excursions run by overlanding companies that also cross the Tibetan plateau, and it becomes clear that in recent years something has changed, because Tibet is now far more accessible to foreign-registration vehicles. As China modernizes and – we hope – eventually liberalizes too, crossing Tibet to get from Siberia or China down to India may come to seem as natural as crossing Nevada to get to California. Just another high-altitude plateau, inscribed by excellent roads unfolding over vast, magnificent spaces. But granted, a very big high-altitude plateau, twice the size of France.....
When I first began this thread, I had not thought much about altitude as a design consideration. As the thread developed, it soon transpired that the length, weight, and height of an overlanding motorhome would have big implications for where it could and could not go. So one important design constraint is the ”size versus geographic reach” trade-off, which also means a “comfort versus geographic reach” trade-off. Here it would be good to know just where exactly a large, 6x6 expedition motorhome might and might not be able to go. So far in this thread contributors have posted personal experiences and impressions, but what's really wanted is a database of global road quality.
In the course of participating in the “High Altitude Heating” thread, however, it began to dawn on me that in our post-cold-war era, an era in which Beijing is now readily accessible by road from Europe, the Tibetan plateau is likely to become a major transportation fulcrum. It must be re-emphasized that China has not only become politically accessible to foreign-registration vehicles, but also practically accessible, because Chinese transport infrastructure is now so good. Furthermore, Chinese economic growth functions as a massive engine driving regional development across Asia, and one direct consequence of that development is the rapid improvement of an emerging “Asian Highway Network” – see for instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Highway_Network , http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3660467.stm , http://www.lib.muohio.edu/multifacet/record/mu3ugb3314250 , http://www.unescap.org/sites/default/files/Full version.pdf , http://www.adb.org/sites/default/files/pub/2009/WP37-Roads-Asian-Integration.pdf , and http://unohrlls.org/UserFiles/File/LLDC Documents/MTR/Toward integrated highway.pdf .
I will discuss the Asian Highway Network in a later series of posts, but suffice it to say that travelling throughout Asia even by ordinary motorhome will become much easier over the next decade or two, because of this network. The primary physical barrier that will make travel between India and China difficult, then, will not be the condition of the roads, but rather, the altitude encountered when crossing the Tibetan plateau. So extreme-altitude capability for the TerraLiner now strikes me as worth just as much careful consideration as overall size and weight. If a TerraLiner cannot cross Tibet easily, then it will be unable to take full advantage of an emerging excellent road network that will soon encompass the entire Eurasian continent.
All best wishes,
Biotect
Last edited:
biotect
Designer
.
egn wrote:
And Gizmo-sam wrote:
.
To which egn replied:
Hi Steve and Bev, egn, optimusprime,
I have to agree with egn that height should not be an obsessive worry. As long as the vehicle is under 3.9 m, it should be fine.
Take a look at the height specifications for most 3-axle UniCat and ActionMobil vehicles: almost all of them top out between 3.9 - 4 m. If 3.9 m were a serious issue, then UniCat and ActionMobil have fabricated lots of expensive motorhomes that have a height problem. Which can’t be true. See http://www.unicat.net/en/individual.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX70HDM-MBActros6x6.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX70HDQ-MANTGA6x6.php , http://actionmobil.com/en/3-axle , and http://actionmobil.com/en/3-axle/globecruiser .
As for the Cab and access to the engine, why go through all the trouble creating a movable habitation module, instead of a movable Cab? The former is much bigger than the latter, so making the Cab movable seems more sensible.
Better still might be reconfiguring or replacing the engine somehow, such that it becomes more accessible via side-panels alone. As egn wrote in post #338, earlier MAN-KAT models before 1985 did have side-panel access to the engine.
Furthermore, fabricators who have developed “full integrated”, uni-body designs, will instead provide access to the engine via a hatch located between the driver and passenger seats. For instance, see the access-hatch for the “Tonto” produced by 4x4 motorhome, discussed in post #209 on page 21, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page21 (standard ExPo pagination). Or see the access-hatch for Peter Thompson’s Mañana, discussed in post #212, page 22, under “1. Engine Placement”, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page22 . That seems to be the way to go, if your engine-placement is COE (cab-over-engine), and you want engine-access without a tilt-forward cab.
But another solution is to buy a CBE truck instead, a truck where the engine locates under a bonnet in front, as per the Oshkosh MTVRs just discussed above, or the Mercedes Zetros. This is a solution that should not be automatically dismissed, because it’s the solution adopted by most American expedition-motorhome fabricators like Earthroamer, Tiger, and GXV. All of these American fabricators produce vehicles in which the habitation module cantilevers over the truck cab, and this is perfectly possible for them, because their cabs do not tilt forwards. And their cabs do not tilt forwards because they are CBE designs in which one accesses the engine simply by opening the bonnet. Note that UniCat and ActionMobil have also produced expedition vehicles based on a Zetros, CBE chassis.
Earlier in the thread there is a very involved discussion of the comparative benefits of CBE versus COE engine-placement – see posts #110 – #127, on pages 11, 12, and 13, beginning at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page11 (standard ExPo pagination). In particular, see egn’s summary in post #127.
Last but not least, if you were willing to relocate the engine, and other design considerations do not prevent you from so doing, egn’s suggestion regarding “Pusher-type” engine-placement in the rear is highly recommended. Top-of-the-line American Class-A integrated motorhomes all have “Pusher” diesel engines located at the back, with the engine accessed via side-panels. So side-panel access + access from underneath should be theoretically adequate. But it all depends on the engine, and how it locates in relation to the access panel (or panels).
Now if the cab does still need to move, yet another solution might be to jack it up vertically, instead of tilting forwards. This only just occurred to me, after looking over the specifications for the DeLeoni MAN-KAT discussed in post #328 on page 33, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page33 (standard ExPo pagination). The list of equipment states:
See http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/man-kat-1-a1/ . I found myself wondering, Why four hydraulic rams? Why not just two? Surely if the cab tilts forwards, then only two hydraulic rams are necessary? But if you take a look at the vehicle in profile, depending on where the hinge in front is placed, a forwards-tilting cab might bind up along the vertical seam between cab and camper box:
Whereas if the cab jacks up vertically it would have no such problem. When you visit with DeLeoni, this might be another thing you could ask them about....
All best wishes,
Biotect
egn wrote:
The engine access for the old KAT1 is from the side (small door behind the drivers door) for regular maintenance.
If you really have to repair something then you can open a large door at the top of engine compartment. It is also large enough to replace the engine with a crane pulling it. Beside loosing the connection the transmission and the exhaust system, there are just a few fast connection you have to separate. So an engine exchange can be done in a few hours.
The KAT 1A1 (starting about 1985) and all followers have a tilting cab for the access to the engine.
In both cases the overhang of the 5th wheeler would limit the access to the engine considerably and I would not recommend to do that.
An alternative is to put a regular travel trailer onto the platform. This has been done by several people at least temporally and has been even used in the Sahara. Actually my truck was used this way for several years by the seller. But the trailer wasn't fixed permanently, just by straps to allow some movement.
My opinion is, that you can do this if you travel really mostly on good roads. But if you drive thousands of km on washboard/corrugated roads then you will find out how good the construction of the 5th wheeler/trailer is. The KAT runs very good on such roads, but there are still a lot of vibrations breaking screwed connections. You may have to look into every connection and probably clue everything together. It also shouldn't be place directly on the platform, because the platform will bend slightly when going off-road and the frame of the house wouldn't be stable enough to take the force fully. There should be also some soft rubber to kill vibrations.
Even the military shelters available are fixed permanently. They are only fixed by chains with rubber suspension to allow flexible movement.
Here you see a nice looking implementation of such a concept:
What you can see is that the trailer sits on top of a stable frame.
And Gizmo-sam wrote:
.
To which egn replied:
Hi Steve and Bev, egn, optimusprime,
I have to agree with egn that height should not be an obsessive worry. As long as the vehicle is under 3.9 m, it should be fine.
Take a look at the height specifications for most 3-axle UniCat and ActionMobil vehicles: almost all of them top out between 3.9 - 4 m. If 3.9 m were a serious issue, then UniCat and ActionMobil have fabricated lots of expensive motorhomes that have a height problem. Which can’t be true. See http://www.unicat.net/en/individual.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX70HDM-MBActros6x6.php , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX70HDQ-MANTGA6x6.php , http://actionmobil.com/en/3-axle , and http://actionmobil.com/en/3-axle/globecruiser .
As for the Cab and access to the engine, why go through all the trouble creating a movable habitation module, instead of a movable Cab? The former is much bigger than the latter, so making the Cab movable seems more sensible.
Better still might be reconfiguring or replacing the engine somehow, such that it becomes more accessible via side-panels alone. As egn wrote in post #338, earlier MAN-KAT models before 1985 did have side-panel access to the engine.
Furthermore, fabricators who have developed “full integrated”, uni-body designs, will instead provide access to the engine via a hatch located between the driver and passenger seats. For instance, see the access-hatch for the “Tonto” produced by 4x4 motorhome, discussed in post #209 on page 21, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page21 (standard ExPo pagination). Or see the access-hatch for Peter Thompson’s Mañana, discussed in post #212, page 22, under “1. Engine Placement”, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page22 . That seems to be the way to go, if your engine-placement is COE (cab-over-engine), and you want engine-access without a tilt-forward cab.
But another solution is to buy a CBE truck instead, a truck where the engine locates under a bonnet in front, as per the Oshkosh MTVRs just discussed above, or the Mercedes Zetros. This is a solution that should not be automatically dismissed, because it’s the solution adopted by most American expedition-motorhome fabricators like Earthroamer, Tiger, and GXV. All of these American fabricators produce vehicles in which the habitation module cantilevers over the truck cab, and this is perfectly possible for them, because their cabs do not tilt forwards. And their cabs do not tilt forwards because they are CBE designs in which one accesses the engine simply by opening the bonnet. Note that UniCat and ActionMobil have also produced expedition vehicles based on a Zetros, CBE chassis.
Earlier in the thread there is a very involved discussion of the comparative benefits of CBE versus COE engine-placement – see posts #110 – #127, on pages 11, 12, and 13, beginning at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page11 (standard ExPo pagination). In particular, see egn’s summary in post #127.
Last but not least, if you were willing to relocate the engine, and other design considerations do not prevent you from so doing, egn’s suggestion regarding “Pusher-type” engine-placement in the rear is highly recommended. Top-of-the-line American Class-A integrated motorhomes all have “Pusher” diesel engines located at the back, with the engine accessed via side-panels. So side-panel access + access from underneath should be theoretically adequate. But it all depends on the engine, and how it locates in relation to the access panel (or panels).
Now if the cab does still need to move, yet another solution might be to jack it up vertically, instead of tilting forwards. This only just occurred to me, after looking over the specifications for the DeLeoni MAN-KAT discussed in post #328 on page 33, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page33 (standard ExPo pagination). The list of equipment states:
See http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/man-kat-1-a1/ . I found myself wondering, Why four hydraulic rams? Why not just two? Surely if the cab tilts forwards, then only two hydraulic rams are necessary? But if you take a look at the vehicle in profile, depending on where the hinge in front is placed, a forwards-tilting cab might bind up along the vertical seam between cab and camper box:
Whereas if the cab jacks up vertically it would have no such problem. When you visit with DeLeoni, this might be another thing you could ask them about....
All best wishes,
Biotect
Last edited:
biotect
Designer
.
Hi optimusprime,
Personally speaking, I'm now fairly neutral in the COE versus CBE debate. Earlier in the thread I was mostly playing "devil's advocate" in favor of CBE, because Europeans who've contributed to this thread tend to militantly favor COE...
But at present I'm designing for COE, mainly because the extra length that CBE entails – i.e. the 1.5 m - 2.0 m "lost" to the bonnet – seems needlessly wasted. Especially if a COE or Pusher design could be made to work instead.
All best wishes,
Biotect
Hi optimusprime,
Personally speaking, I'm now fairly neutral in the COE versus CBE debate. Earlier in the thread I was mostly playing "devil's advocate" in favor of CBE, because Europeans who've contributed to this thread tend to militantly favor COE...
But at present I'm designing for COE, mainly because the extra length that CBE entails – i.e. the 1.5 m - 2.0 m "lost" to the bonnet – seems needlessly wasted. Especially if a COE or Pusher design could be made to work instead.
All best wishes,
Biotect
Last edited:
biotect
Designer
.
Hi UK4x4,
Would you know what the "fixed tank" size limit might be for carrying propane in a large motorhome?
Earlier in the thread egn suggested that instead of carrying multiple removable bottles, it might be better to carry just one, large, fixed tank of 100 liters of LPG or so. I remember reading somewhere that the maximum size allowed in Europe for such a permanently fixed LPG tank in an RV is 131 liters, or approximately 28.8 Imperial gallons, or 34.6 U.S. gallons. But I am not sure about this. Would you know the European LPG-carrying limit? And perhaps the American LPG-carryiing limit?
All best wishes,
Biotect
Biotect wrote: "Yes, I'd thought of that, but I read somewhere that some gas stations don't like filling LPG “built-in” tanks; that they are only wiling to refill cylinders? Or even worse, that they're only wiling to swap cylinders?"
When you hard mount a gas system , if you make it legal , as per LPG cars you just drive up, pay with CC and fill your tank ...
They are situated at main highway petrol stations and most gas suppliers have one in their yard. It's a step up from a BBQ cylinder strapped into the truck, and available in 100's of locations across Europe at least !
Hi UK4x4,
Would you know what the "fixed tank" size limit might be for carrying propane in a large motorhome?
Earlier in the thread egn suggested that instead of carrying multiple removable bottles, it might be better to carry just one, large, fixed tank of 100 liters of LPG or so. I remember reading somewhere that the maximum size allowed in Europe for such a permanently fixed LPG tank in an RV is 131 liters, or approximately 28.8 Imperial gallons, or 34.6 U.S. gallons. But I am not sure about this. Would you know the European LPG-carrying limit? And perhaps the American LPG-carryiing limit?
All best wishes,
Biotect
Last edited:
optimusprime
Proffessional daydreamer.
I don't know about a European limit as such, but if you are planning any ferry crossings then you have to contact the ferry company concerned as they have differing rules when it comes to the carrying of flammable gas on their ships.
The same rule applies to the channel tunnel.
The same rule applies to the channel tunnel.
Last edited:
optimusprime
Proffessional daydreamer.
Just had a thought to throw into the mix..
Hi optimusprime,
Personally speaking, I'm now fairly neutral in the COE versus CBE debate. Earlier in the thread I was mostly playing "devil's advocate" in favor of CBE, because Europeans who've contributed to this thread tend to militantly favor COE...
But at present I'm designing for COE, mainly because the extra length that CBE entails – i.e. the 1.5 m - 2.0 m "lost" to the bonnet – seems needlessly wasted. Especially if a COE or Pusher design could be made to work instead.
All best wishes,
Biotect
The old iconic London Routemaster double decker bus had its engine up front and gearbox in the middle of the bus.this was to aid maintenance as you could take the gearbox or engine out without having to remove the other. Engine bay could be smaller,and you could always turn it around so the engine is in the back....you then have the engine slide out for maintenance,like most of the rear engined buses do nowadays.
biotect
Designer
Thanks for the advice regarding ferries -- yes, I had heard that. This is one of the main reasons why, if the vehicle that I am designing were to carry LPG, it might be best to carry LPG in portable bottles on a slide-out tray, in a dedicated "LPG compartment", instead of fitting just one, single, large LPG tank, as per Egn's suggestion.
With multiple portable bottles these could be added or ditched, and bottle sizes could be expanded or contracted, depending upon the rules of a given country, or the rules of a given ferry operator.
What I've been imagining, in fact, is two LPG compartments roughly 36 cm wide x 66 cm deep, i.e. large enough to accommodate LPG slide-out trays of the kind made by Kwikee/PowerGear -- see
http://www.powergearus.com/products/trays , http://support.powergearus.com/techdocs/Utility Trays Application Guide v2.pdf , http://www.powergearus.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Online-Catalog.pdf , http://www.delcity.net/store/RV-Battery-and-Utility-Slide-Out-Trays/p_799389 , http://www.delcity.net/store/LP-Gas-Tank-Trays/p_799516 , http://www.delcity.net/documents/information/kwikee_tray_specifications.pdf , http://www.morryde.com/aftermarket/sliding-trays/mor-stor-sliding-trays-48.html , and http://www.morryde.com/uploads/products/files/57/MORryde Sliding Trays.pdf :
And these LPG compartments would be 85 cm high, i.e. tall enough to accommodate the longer 14 kg composite cylinders made by Ragasco (72 cm high), or the 40 lbs/9.4 gallon aluminum cylinders made by Worthington (81.4 cm high) -- see http://www.hexagonragasco.com/products/technical-specifications/technical-specifications , http://www.hexagonragasco.com/downloads/documentation-and-literature/documentation-and-literature , http://www.worthingtoncylinders.com/Products/Industrial-Products/Propane/Portables/Aluminum.aspx , http://www.worthingtoncylinders.com/Libraries/pdfs/Alum_Portables.sflb.ashx , and http://www.vintagetrailersupply.com/40_Vertical_Aluminum_Tank_p/vts-172.htm :
In other words, I'm imagining the vehicle as able to carry as many as four cylinders of propane, in two compartments with two cylinders each. The 40 lb aluminum cylinders made by Worthington carry 35.7 liters of propane, so three of these cylinders equals 107.1 liters. An additional 20 lb cylinder would add 17.8 liters, bringing the total to 124.9 liters of propane, i.e. close to what seems to be the maximum 131 liter highway-carry limit for LPG in Europe. Again, I am not sure about the figure of 131 liters; I only vaguely remember reading it somewhere....
It's worth noting that the Tatra 815 GTC "Around the World" 6x6 motorhome carried four 10 kg bottles of propane (i.e. four 22 lb bottles) , even though the Tatra 815 GTC's heating system was diesel-electric -- see page 30 and 31, posts #300 and #304, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page30 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page31 (standard ExPo pagination). So designing along similar lines might seem wise?
Furthermore, the following article suggests that refillable cylinders can be mounted inside a gas-locker and fitted with hoses such that they could be "topped up" just like a permanently mounted, fixed, single tank -- see http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/Mo...-LPG-bottles-in-your-motorhome/_ch1_ft993_pg1 . And the article suggests that refillable cylinders configured in this way are actually preferable to a single, fixed, mounted tank. But perhaps I am not reading the article correctly?
*********************************************
Now it would be great if someone who has extensive experience driving a "Liner" class German motorhome around Europe and a bit further afield, using ferries from Scandinavia to the Med, could tell me,
"Look, just fit a single, 131 Liter LPG built-in tank, and you will be fine. All the roads in Europe will allow you to carry that much propane in a single, built-in tank. And all the ferries will be fine with it too. In Europe it will be easy to fill up this sort of 'hard-mount' tank at LPG filling stations, of the kind that service cars that run on LPG. In Asia, Africa, and Latin America it should also be easy to fill up a built-in LPG tank, too."
Until I find reliable information to this effect, the multi-bottle system that I've just described seems like the best and potentially most flexible solution. But any additional advice would be most welcome. I'm all ears....
All best wishes,
Biotect
Last edited:
derjack
Adventurer
@biotect
Of I got you right you are looking for something like this?
This is a document giving an exactly information on what is allowed regarding propane in a camper.
Camper and caravan is different in Germany.
Inside European union it's mostly the same and its partly mentioned in the pdf.
This is the way to go in Germany, if you want to install propane LEGALLY in Germany - AND it must get an approval later on and every 2 years.
Hope this helps.
PS: it's in German of course, but you can throw it in an translator
www.derJackistweg.de/Propan
Of I got you right you are looking for something like this?
This is a document giving an exactly information on what is allowed regarding propane in a camper.
Camper and caravan is different in Germany.
Inside European union it's mostly the same and its partly mentioned in the pdf.
This is the way to go in Germany, if you want to install propane LEGALLY in Germany - AND it must get an approval later on and every 2 years.
Hope this helps.
PS: it's in German of course, but you can throw it in an translator
www.derJackistweg.de/Propan
biotect
Designer
Hi derjack,
Many thanks!
For what it's worth, ich bin Deutsch, ich habe eine deutsche (EU) Pass, meine Eltern sind beide Deutsch, und ich verstehe Deutsch. Aber mein Deutsch ist gang, ganz schlecht gewesen..... All those years living and studying in the Anglosphere have taken their toll. It's hard to remain completely fluent in two languages simultaneously, especially if one does not use one of them regularly. So yes, google translate does help!
Interesting website/blog, and wonderful header-image of a beach in Morocco. A very beautiful photograph.
The PDF document about German rules and regulations vis-a-vis propane is excellent, because Germany seems to set the agenda for European motorhomes. I don't know the figure, but would not be surprised if over 80 % of the motorhomes manufactured in the EU are German-origin. If so, then German motorhome regulations might defacto determine EU ones. For a more direct link to the same document, see http://reisemobilist.de/dow/Wissenswertes ueber Fluessiggasanlagen in Wohnmobilen.pdf . But there is no point providing a link for this PDF via google translate, because it's simply too big. Instead it has to be first downloaded in German, and then fed through google translator as a document.
********************************
1. German Regulations According to this PDF
According to this PDF, the maximum allowed in Germany is two cylinders up to 16 kg each, i.e. 35 lbs each. But it states that standard German practice is 11 kg, because larger cylinders are hard to find. This seems strange from an American point of view, because I've read on a number of blogs that some of the longer Airstream caravans can come factory-equipped with two aluminum 40 lb cylinders, instead of two steel 30 lb cylinders -- see for instance http://www.airforums.com/forums/f287/propane-tank-size-113832.html . A 40 lb aluminum "Worthington" cylinder of the kind shown in my previous post would be 18 kg, which would exceed the German 16 kg limit.....
derjack, have you ever seen 40 lb aluminum propane cylinders in Germany? i.e. propane cylinders that hold about 18 kg?
Perhaps this is why Ragasco's largest composite cylinder is 14 kg, or roughly 31 lb, because there is no market in Germany for 40 lb cylinders, as per the United States?
********************************
2. Unicat and Actionmobil Practice
Here is another way of thinking about the issue. Doing a google search for "Unicat 6x6 LPG" produced the following PDF documents: http://www.unicat.com/en/info/EX70HDQ-MANTGA6x6.php , http://unicat.net/pdf/EX63HDS-MANTGA6x6-exposee-en.pdf , and http://www.unicat.com/en/info/EX70HD-MANTGA6x6-sh.php . Almost always the Unicat LPG specification reads "2 x 11kg LPG bottles in sealed LPG compartment". This is exactly the same as the LPG specification for the smaller 4x4 Unicats; for instance, see http://www.unicat.net/pdf/MD48-MANL4x4-exposee-en.pdf , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/TC55comfortplus.php , and http://www.unicat.com/en/info/TC59family.php .
The only UniCat I came across that has more LPG on board is a 4x4 that seems intended for the American market, with "2 x 30 lb. LPG cylinders in sealed compartment" -- see http://www.unicat.net/pdf/TC52hvcomfort-International74004x4-sh-en.pdf .
Similarly, although it's harder to find detailed Actionmobil specifications on-line, even Actionmobil's larger, 6x6 models seem to carry the same "2 x 11 kg" quantity of LPG -- see http://www.themotorreport.com.au/10763/action-mobil-globecruiser-2008-not-your-average-motorhome .
So perhaps two 30 lb cylinders might be enough after all?
********************************
3. Built-in, Fixed, Horizontal LPG Tanks
Note that the German PDF you provided did not seem to discuss "built in" horizontal tanks, of the kind mentioned by egn. I am still curious what the size-limit might be for such built-in, fixed horizontal LPG tanks. In cars that run on LPG they can get quite large, so perhaps they can also be large in motorhomes, too, with much more capacity than 2 x 16 kg bottles?
a. Tiffin
For instance, Tiffin claims that its "Phaeton" model is America's number one best-selling Class A diesel "pusher" motorhome, and the "Phateon" comes factory-equipped with a 35.7 gallon LPG tank -- see http://tiffinmotorhomes.com/phaeton and http://tiffinmotorhomes.com/pdfs/brochures/2014phaetonBrochure.pdf . This would be roughly equivalent to 4 x 40 lb Worthington cylinders, or 135 liters.
Note that Tiffin's top-of-the-line "Zephyr" motorhome can also be equipped with LPG, but like most 45-foot "luxury" Class A motorhomes manufactured in the United States, the Zephyr comes standard as "all electric", i.e. with LPG completely eliminated.
b. Winnebago
Or consider Winnebago, perhaps America's most famous motorhome manufacturer. Winnebago's "Tour" model of Class A diesel pusher comes factory-equipped with a 28 gallon LPG tank, or 106 liters -- see http://www.gowinnebago.com/products/2014/tour/specifications/ .
c. Variomobil
When we turn to German manufactures, Variomobil's entry-level Liner-class motorhomes can be fitted with an "Additional Gas tank 116 l, distance filling, ice ex, (80% refillable), safety control with gas remote switch" as a priced option. And this large LPG tank comes standard in Variomobil's top-of-the-line "Alkoven" model. See the PDF at http://www.vario-mobil.com/en/downl.../e_2014_price list_VARIOmobil_motor homes.pdf , and do a control-F search in the PDF for "gas tank".
Here it seems safe to assume that "116 l" means 116 liters, which would be about 30.6 U.S. gallons. This would be roughly equivalent to 4 x 30 lb cylinders, i.e. four 14 kg cylinders.
Furthermore, in the Variomobil it seems that this fixed tank can be provided in addition to two standard 11 kg cylinders, which would add another 10 gallons (approximately), or 38 liters. So the total LPG-storage capacity of a Variomobil would seem potentially as much as 116 liters + 38 liters = 154 liters. Of course, actual storage capacity is never the gross figure, but rather, the gross figure minus 20 %. So the net LPG storage capacity of an "Alkoven" Variomobil would seem to be 123 liters.
d. Concorde
The same seems true for Concorde's Liner-class motorhomes. For instance, the Concorde "Liner Plus" comes standard with two 11 kg cylinders, but these can be supplemented by an optional "Approx. 120 l gas tank with remote gas switch, crash sensor and level indicator on control panel display, incl. skirting-panel flap" -- see http://www.concorde.eu/assets/files/preisliste-2014/14189_PL_2014_LinerPlus_GB_oP_Screen_18.12.pdf , http://www.concorde.eu/assets/files/14185_Liner-Plus_GB_4.pdf , and http://www.concorde.eu/en/models/liner-plus-2013/description/ .
Concorde's largest "Liner Centurion" model seems available only in the German market, but the built-in, fixed LPG tank that it provides is the same, 120 liters -- see http://www.concorde.eu/de/modelle/ , http://www.concorde.eu/de/modelle/liner-centurion/beschreibung/ , http://www.concorde.eu/assets/files/kataloge-2014/14319_Liner Centurion_RZ.PDF , and http://www.concorde.eu/assets/files/kataloge-2014/208746_Preisliste_Liner-Centurion_2014_Korr5.pdf .
On some RV discussion forums participants even seem to talk about filling the "45 gallon" built-in, fixed LP propane tanks in their Class-A motorhomes..... A 45 U.S. gallon LP tank would be 170 liters.
So you can see why I am a bit confused as to what the true LPG size-limit might be, in both the United States and Germany, when it comes to fixed, built-in, horizontal tanks in large motorhomes.
All best wishes,
Biotect
Many thanks!
For what it's worth, ich bin Deutsch, ich habe eine deutsche (EU) Pass, meine Eltern sind beide Deutsch, und ich verstehe Deutsch. Aber mein Deutsch ist gang, ganz schlecht gewesen.....
All those years living and studying in the Anglosphere have taken their toll. It's hard to remain completely fluent in two languages simultaneously, especially if one does not use one of them regularly. So yes, google translate does help!Interesting website/blog, and wonderful header-image of a beach in Morocco. A very beautiful photograph.
The PDF document about German rules and regulations vis-a-vis propane is excellent, because Germany seems to set the agenda for European motorhomes. I don't know the figure, but would not be surprised if over 80 % of the motorhomes manufactured in the EU are German-origin. If so, then German motorhome regulations might defacto determine EU ones. For a more direct link to the same document, see http://reisemobilist.de/dow/Wissenswertes ueber Fluessiggasanlagen in Wohnmobilen.pdf . But there is no point providing a link for this PDF via google translate, because it's simply too big. Instead it has to be first downloaded in German, and then fed through google translator as a document.
********************************
1. German Regulations According to this PDF
According to this PDF, the maximum allowed in Germany is two cylinders up to 16 kg each, i.e. 35 lbs each. But it states that standard German practice is 11 kg, because larger cylinders are hard to find. This seems strange from an American point of view, because I've read on a number of blogs that some of the longer Airstream caravans can come factory-equipped with two aluminum 40 lb cylinders, instead of two steel 30 lb cylinders -- see for instance http://www.airforums.com/forums/f287/propane-tank-size-113832.html . A 40 lb aluminum "Worthington" cylinder of the kind shown in my previous post would be 18 kg, which would exceed the German 16 kg limit.....
derjack, have you ever seen 40 lb aluminum propane cylinders in Germany? i.e. propane cylinders that hold about 18 kg?
Perhaps this is why Ragasco's largest composite cylinder is 14 kg, or roughly 31 lb, because there is no market in Germany for 40 lb cylinders, as per the United States?
********************************
2. Unicat and Actionmobil Practice
Here is another way of thinking about the issue. Doing a google search for "Unicat 6x6 LPG" produced the following PDF documents: http://www.unicat.com/en/info/EX70HDQ-MANTGA6x6.php , http://unicat.net/pdf/EX63HDS-MANTGA6x6-exposee-en.pdf , and http://www.unicat.com/en/info/EX70HD-MANTGA6x6-sh.php . Almost always the Unicat LPG specification reads "2 x 11kg LPG bottles in sealed LPG compartment". This is exactly the same as the LPG specification for the smaller 4x4 Unicats; for instance, see http://www.unicat.net/pdf/MD48-MANL4x4-exposee-en.pdf , http://www.unicat.net/en/info/TC55comfortplus.php , and http://www.unicat.com/en/info/TC59family.php .
The only UniCat I came across that has more LPG on board is a 4x4 that seems intended for the American market, with "2 x 30 lb. LPG cylinders in sealed compartment" -- see http://www.unicat.net/pdf/TC52hvcomfort-International74004x4-sh-en.pdf .
Similarly, although it's harder to find detailed Actionmobil specifications on-line, even Actionmobil's larger, 6x6 models seem to carry the same "2 x 11 kg" quantity of LPG -- see http://www.themotorreport.com.au/10763/action-mobil-globecruiser-2008-not-your-average-motorhome .
So perhaps two 30 lb cylinders might be enough after all?
********************************
3. Built-in, Fixed, Horizontal LPG Tanks
Note that the German PDF you provided did not seem to discuss "built in" horizontal tanks, of the kind mentioned by egn. I am still curious what the size-limit might be for such built-in, fixed horizontal LPG tanks. In cars that run on LPG they can get quite large, so perhaps they can also be large in motorhomes, too, with much more capacity than 2 x 16 kg bottles?
a. Tiffin
For instance, Tiffin claims that its "Phaeton" model is America's number one best-selling Class A diesel "pusher" motorhome, and the "Phateon" comes factory-equipped with a 35.7 gallon LPG tank -- see http://tiffinmotorhomes.com/phaeton and http://tiffinmotorhomes.com/pdfs/brochures/2014phaetonBrochure.pdf . This would be roughly equivalent to 4 x 40 lb Worthington cylinders, or 135 liters.
Note that Tiffin's top-of-the-line "Zephyr" motorhome can also be equipped with LPG, but like most 45-foot "luxury" Class A motorhomes manufactured in the United States, the Zephyr comes standard as "all electric", i.e. with LPG completely eliminated.
b. Winnebago
Or consider Winnebago, perhaps America's most famous motorhome manufacturer. Winnebago's "Tour" model of Class A diesel pusher comes factory-equipped with a 28 gallon LPG tank, or 106 liters -- see http://www.gowinnebago.com/products/2014/tour/specifications/ .
c. Variomobil
When we turn to German manufactures, Variomobil's entry-level Liner-class motorhomes can be fitted with an "Additional Gas tank 116 l, distance filling, ice ex, (80% refillable), safety control with gas remote switch" as a priced option. And this large LPG tank comes standard in Variomobil's top-of-the-line "Alkoven" model. See the PDF at http://www.vario-mobil.com/en/downl.../e_2014_price list_VARIOmobil_motor homes.pdf , and do a control-F search in the PDF for "gas tank".
Here it seems safe to assume that "116 l" means 116 liters, which would be about 30.6 U.S. gallons. This would be roughly equivalent to 4 x 30 lb cylinders, i.e. four 14 kg cylinders.
Furthermore, in the Variomobil it seems that this fixed tank can be provided in addition to two standard 11 kg cylinders, which would add another 10 gallons (approximately), or 38 liters. So the total LPG-storage capacity of a Variomobil would seem potentially as much as 116 liters + 38 liters = 154 liters. Of course, actual storage capacity is never the gross figure, but rather, the gross figure minus 20 %. So the net LPG storage capacity of an "Alkoven" Variomobil would seem to be 123 liters.
d. Concorde
The same seems true for Concorde's Liner-class motorhomes. For instance, the Concorde "Liner Plus" comes standard with two 11 kg cylinders, but these can be supplemented by an optional "Approx. 120 l gas tank with remote gas switch, crash sensor and level indicator on control panel display, incl. skirting-panel flap" -- see http://www.concorde.eu/assets/files/preisliste-2014/14189_PL_2014_LinerPlus_GB_oP_Screen_18.12.pdf , http://www.concorde.eu/assets/files/14185_Liner-Plus_GB_4.pdf , and http://www.concorde.eu/en/models/liner-plus-2013/description/ .
Concorde's largest "Liner Centurion" model seems available only in the German market, but the built-in, fixed LPG tank that it provides is the same, 120 liters -- see http://www.concorde.eu/de/modelle/ , http://www.concorde.eu/de/modelle/liner-centurion/beschreibung/ , http://www.concorde.eu/assets/files/kataloge-2014/14319_Liner Centurion_RZ.PDF , and http://www.concorde.eu/assets/files/kataloge-2014/208746_Preisliste_Liner-Centurion_2014_Korr5.pdf .
On some RV discussion forums participants even seem to talk about filling the "45 gallon" built-in, fixed LP propane tanks in their Class-A motorhomes..... A 45 U.S. gallon LP tank would be 170 liters.
So you can see why I am a bit confused as to what the true LPG size-limit might be, in both the United States and Germany, when it comes to fixed, built-in, horizontal tanks in large motorhomes.
All best wishes,
Biotect
Last edited:
julius0377
Adventurer
Some ferries only allow 2x11kg cylinders. I would go for a large tank (116 ltr. or similar) as well as a compartment for two 11kg cylinders, with allowance in height for 14kg cylinders.
biotect
Designer
.
Hi Julius,
Good to hear from you. Would you know if there is a limit to the size of fixed, horizontal LPG tanks? 120 Liters? 140 Liters? More? A limit on either roads or ferries? Do any ferries have rules against the larger, fixed tanks? Or are fixed, built-in tanks thought of as much safer than removable cylinders?
Would you know of any specialist manufacturers who have particularly good reputations when it comes to such larger, horizontal LPG tanks? Manchester and Worthington, for instance, seem to be big names in the Anglospheric market for steel and aluminum cylinders, but I'm not sure if they make the larger tanks specifically for RV's. It would be interesting to know where Variomobil and Concorde get their big LPG tanks.
Also, did I read derjack's PDF correctly? Are 40 lb, 18 kg cylinders absolutely verboten in Deutschland?
All best wishes,
Biotect
PS -- I'll get back to the "High Altitude Heating" thread shortly, in a few days. I came across so much interesting material about Tibet, the condition of Tibetan roads, recent major expeditions across the plateau, the Asian Highway Network, and so on..... all material that helps further clarify my "SOR" (statement of requirements). So seemed like a good idea to grab the bull by the horns while my enthusiasm was peaking, and get the material posted here in this thread, before returning to "High Altitude Heating". Posting about the recent Landrover expeditions that crossed the plateau was a huge amount of work, but worth it, because it got me thinking about the G219, as well as the Asian Highway Network, which I'll be discussing next.....
Hi Julius,
Good to hear from you. Would you know if there is a limit to the size of fixed, horizontal LPG tanks? 120 Liters? 140 Liters? More? A limit on either roads or ferries? Do any ferries have rules against the larger, fixed tanks? Or are fixed, built-in tanks thought of as much safer than removable cylinders?
Would you know of any specialist manufacturers who have particularly good reputations when it comes to such larger, horizontal LPG tanks? Manchester and Worthington, for instance, seem to be big names in the Anglospheric market for steel and aluminum cylinders, but I'm not sure if they make the larger tanks specifically for RV's. It would be interesting to know where Variomobil and Concorde get their big LPG tanks.
Also, did I read derjack's PDF correctly? Are 40 lb, 18 kg cylinders absolutely verboten in Deutschland?
All best wishes,
Biotect
PS -- I'll get back to the "High Altitude Heating" thread shortly, in a few days. I came across so much interesting material about Tibet, the condition of Tibetan roads, recent major expeditions across the plateau, the Asian Highway Network, and so on..... all material that helps further clarify my "SOR" (statement of requirements). So seemed like a good idea to grab the bull by the horns while my enthusiasm was peaking, and get the material posted here in this thread, before returning to "High Altitude Heating". Posting about the recent Landrover expeditions that crossed the plateau was a huge amount of work, but worth it, because it got me thinking about the G219, as well as the Asian Highway Network, which I'll be discussing next.....
Last edited:
biotect
Designer
.
******************************************
1. "Propane Systems for Expedition Vehicles", by Doug Hackney
******************************************
Julius,
Just finished reading the extremely useful document produced by Doug Hackney, titled “Propane Systems for Expedition Vehicles”, available in the public domain, and downloadable at http://hackneystravel.com/wp/2008/06/01/propane-systems-for-expedition-vehicles/ and http://www.hackneys.com/travel/docs/propane4xvehicles.pdf . This PDF is filled with a wealth of information about propane, and explains in detail why propane so complicated, given the propane supply chain. The PDF also discusses at length various connectors, valves, regulators, and hoses, and suggests a suitable useful Gear/Kit of connectors and hoses that might gain one maximum refill flexibility.
Like you, Doug Hackney suggests that the ideal combination would be a fixed tank plus a portable cylinder or cylinders, because this provides maximum refill flexibility.
However, although the PDF repeatedly states that the compartment that carries propane cylinders must be sized large enough to accommodate all possible cylinder dimensions one might encounter in various propane markets worldwide, it never provides useful ballpark dimensions for said compartment.
If one goes direct to the website that documents the build of Doug Hackney's own motorhome, one finds that he opted for:
But again, on the “build” website there does not appear to be information about the dimensions of a truly “flexible” propane storage compartment, or "gas locker".
The PDF also does not contain information about the possible size-limit of a fixed LPG tank. Looks like I may have to email Doug Hackney directly….
******************************************
2. Some Images for Steve and Bev
******************************************
Brief aside: Doug Hackney's vehicle seems in some ways similar to the vehicle proposed by Steve earlier in the thread, in post #327 on page 33, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page33 (standard ExPo pagination):
Again, see http://www.hackneys.com/mitsu/index.htm .
******************************************
3. Some Choice Quotes from Doug Hackney's PDF
******************************************
The following are the most useful quotes in Doug Hackney's document for present purposes, i.e. useful from a designer's point of view, as opposed to a more detailed engineering point of view. But the entire document is well worth reading in full, and is very clear and well-organized.
One major argument for the new composite cylinders of the kind made by Ragasco, is that they are transparent, so it's easy to control fill-up such that they never fill over 80 %. As Doug Hackney suggests, even if one can find a bottle refill plant in a foreign country willing to top up one's own cylinders, one has to communicate the amount of propane necessary to obtain an 80 % fill, in a foreign language:
See page 16. Granted, even with a transparent composite cylinder one should probably still do the calculation. But at least there would be less danger of overfilling, because the propane would be visible.
All best wishes,
Biotect
******************************************
1. "Propane Systems for Expedition Vehicles", by Doug Hackney
******************************************
Julius,
Just finished reading the extremely useful document produced by Doug Hackney, titled “Propane Systems for Expedition Vehicles”, available in the public domain, and downloadable at http://hackneystravel.com/wp/2008/06/01/propane-systems-for-expedition-vehicles/ and http://www.hackneys.com/travel/docs/propane4xvehicles.pdf . This PDF is filled with a wealth of information about propane, and explains in detail why propane so complicated, given the propane supply chain. The PDF also discusses at length various connectors, valves, regulators, and hoses, and suggests a suitable useful Gear/Kit of connectors and hoses that might gain one maximum refill flexibility.
Like you, Doug Hackney suggests that the ideal combination would be a fixed tank plus a portable cylinder or cylinders, because this provides maximum refill flexibility.
However, although the PDF repeatedly states that the compartment that carries propane cylinders must be sized large enough to accommodate all possible cylinder dimensions one might encounter in various propane markets worldwide, it never provides useful ballpark dimensions for said compartment.
If one goes direct to the website that documents the build of Doug Hackney's own motorhome, one finds that he opted for:
But again, on the “build” website there does not appear to be information about the dimensions of a truly “flexible” propane storage compartment, or "gas locker".
The PDF also does not contain information about the possible size-limit of a fixed LPG tank. Looks like I may have to email Doug Hackney directly….
******************************************
2. Some Images for Steve and Bev
******************************************
Brief aside: Doug Hackney's vehicle seems in some ways similar to the vehicle proposed by Steve earlier in the thread, in post #327 on page 33, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page33 (standard ExPo pagination):
Again, see http://www.hackneys.com/mitsu/index.htm .
******************************************
3. Some Choice Quotes from Doug Hackney's PDF
******************************************
The following are the most useful quotes in Doug Hackney's document for present purposes, i.e. useful from a designer's point of view, as opposed to a more detailed engineering point of view. But the entire document is well worth reading in full, and is very clear and well-organized.
1 Introduction
Perhaps no other system on an expedition vehicle is as wrapped in mystery or inspires as much outright fear as the propane system.
With its inherently explosive nature and its bewildering variety of connectors, it is easy to understand why the typical overlander avoids the design and implementation of a propane system if at all possible.
Once the propane system is designed and installed the challenges do not evaporate. Instead, the overlander who ventures overseas is faced with the daunting task of refilling their propane tank(s) or bottle(s). To refill, they must decipher a highly regulated supply chain and communicate complex concepts and schedules in the local language.
And, if the refilling quest fails, they must do the task on their own, using materials at hand.
All of this adds up to a lot of motivation to avoid a propane system in your expedition vehicle if at all possible. Unfortunately, the alternatives all present significant challenges and/or downsides of their own, so most of us end up with a propane system in our expedition vehicles……
2 Why Propane?
Propane is commonly used in homes, businesses, industry, recreational vehicles (RVs), campers and expedition vehicles to provide energy for:
Common alternative energy sources for these tasks include diesel fuel, 120/220VAC and/or 12/24VDC electricity, and chassis engine coolant heat exchangers.
- Heating water
- Heating living spaces
- Indoor cooking
- Outdoor cooking
- Refrigeration
Diesel fuel devices are a very desirable alternative because they eliminate the need to carry and procure another type of fuel. However, they can be smoky and/or sooty, and often don't work well at moderate to high altitudes.
Utilizing electricity requires being plugged into external power, running a generator, running the chassis engine to utilize an alternator, or placing a very high, unsustainable amp hour load on your house bank batteries. Using 12VDC for heating water or refrigeration is a very efficient approach while the vehicle is in operation, but not always practical, desirable or possible while parked.
Using a chassis motor heat exchanger is a very efficient method for heating water while the vehicle is in operation, but is not always practical, desirable or possible while parked.
Negative attributes of propane include:
Positive attributes of propane include:
- Explosive gas
- Refill and output connectors vary in different countries and regions
- Consumer access to refill systems can be difficult to impossible in some countries and
- regions
- Bottle/tank sizes vary in different countries and regions
- Weight and size of propane tanks/bottles
Primary challenges of using propane in an expedition vehicle include:
- High energy density fuel (74% of gasoline's energy content)
- Portable
- Widely used at the consumer level in most regions of the world
- Generally available at consumer retail in bottle form
- Scent tagged to aid/ensure leak detection
- High auto-ignition point (1,004F/540C vs. 428F/220C gasoline and 437F/225C diesel)
- High peak flame temperature (3,614F/1,990C)
- Appliances, appliance parts and repair widely available at affordable prices
- Hoses/tubing/pipe and connectors widely available at affordable prices
- Affordable fuel cost
- Requirement for large bottle compartment to allow for varying bottle sizes in different 
countries/regions
- Weight of propane bottle(s)/tank(s)
- Requirement for adapters/custom connections for each unique local bottle/tank connector 
type
- Locating and accessing refilling facilities for fixed tanks
- Handling liquid propane for manual jumper refilling
4 Propane Supply Chain
……One of the challenges of using propane in an overland expedition vehicle is seeking to refill non- local market bottles. In this scenario the traveler is attempting to insert themselves into the supply chain at a point where there is normally no consumer access – at the point of bottle refill within the distribution plant.
Another challenge arises when attempting to fill fixed tanks permanently mounted on the vehicle. These typically require a connection from a propane pump designed to fuel vehicles or directly from a bobtail delivery truck. Propane pumps for vehicles are not common, so can be very difficult to locate. In addition, distances can be vast between pump locations. Coordinating with a bobtail truck to arrange delivery, which is usually required at the plant location, can also be a daunting task, especially with limited local language skills……
5 Propane System Components
Propane systems consist of the components required to store the propane, regulate the system pressure, distribute the propane gas, and burn it to generate heat.
9 Using Propane in Foreign Countries
Propane is widely available around the world, however getting it into your non-local market bottle or fixed vehicle tank can be a challenge.
Because of the variety of connector types used for propane and lack of consumer access to refill facilities in other areas of the world, it is best to have multiple ways of refilling your propane tank(s) and bottle(s).
For instance, if you have a large fixed tank, you will be at a significant advantage if you also have a small portable tank in your system. This enables utilization of local market bottles or removing your bottle to have it refilled in areas where it is impossible to refill your large tank.
[Hi-lighted purple for emphasis]
Bottles
The easiest way to utilize propane in foreign countries is to use a propane bottle sold in the local market. This method enables the easiest access to full propane bottles since you can swap your empty bottle for a full one at any propane bottle exchange retail location, which are typically common in market towns and urban areas.
There are two main challenges to this method. First, it requires you to purchase your initial local bottle and build a connection line using the local market bottle's connector type. You can usually buy whatever you need for this connector line in a local hardware store in any market town. Make certain you buy liquid propane rated hose for the connection line. Do not use normal fuel line.
Secondly, your propane bottle storage compartment must be large enough to accommodate a usefully sized local market bottle. When designing and constructing your vehicle, make your propane storage compartment as large as possible to accommodate foreign market bottles, which will probably not be the same size and shape as your U.S.A. market bottle.
Tanks
If your vehicle has a large, fixed propane tank, you will need to locate and utilize a propane vehicle fill pump, locate and visit a propane distribution plant, or locate and connect to a propane bobtail delivery truck.
Propane vehicle fill pumps are usually very rare, and distances between pumps can be measured in hundreds to thousands of miles/kilometers. They are usually found in large market towns and urban areas. The connector used on the pump hose may not be compatible with your tank fill valve connector.
It can be challenging to locate propane distribution plants and equally challenging to coordinate with the plant and/or bobtail delivery truck to obtain a fill. The bobtail delivery truck hose may not use the same connector as you have on your tank.
It is best to build a fill manifold utilizing a variety of international fill valves or bring along a selection of fill valves you can install on your vehicle to enable filling in local markets.
10 Using Foreign Propane Bottles/Tanks
There are two primary means of using portable tanks in foreign markets:
Refilling requires locating and accessing refilling facilities that are not normally part of the consumer market. Refilling also requires that the local refilling plant is equipped with compatible connectors for your U.S.A. / European bottle/tank. Both of these requirements can become insurmountable challenges.
- Refill your stock U.S.A. / Europe bottle/tank as required
- Utilize local market bottles/tanks in your vehicle's system
The easiest way to use portable bottle/tanks in foreign destinations is to utilize the tanks sold/exchanged in the local market/region you are visiting.
To do so requires two things:
A. That your vehicle can accommodate local market bottles/tanks. Portable propane bottles/tanks vary in capacity, size and shape in different parts of the world. When designing and building your vehicle, ensure your propane bottle/tank compartment is large enough to accommodate overseas tanks of sufficient capacity to be useful.
B. That you have a hose to connect the local tank to your propane system's regulator.
One major argument for the new composite cylinders of the kind made by Ragasco, is that they are transparent, so it's easy to control fill-up such that they never fill over 80 %. As Doug Hackney suggests, even if one can find a bottle refill plant in a foreign country willing to top up one's own cylinders, one has to communicate the amount of propane necessary to obtain an 80 % fill, in a foreign language:
See page 16. Granted, even with a transparent composite cylinder one should probably still do the calculation. But at least there would be less danger of overfilling, because the propane would be visible.
All best wishes,
Biotect
Last edited:
julius0377
Adventurer
Likewise
I read some favourable remarks about Wynen gas (https://www.wynen-gas.de/tanks-en.html?page=7) from someone outfitting a Sprinter a while back, but can't seem to find where. I believe they deliver tanks to many large manufacturers of mobile homes and expedition RV's. Sizes range from 20 to 200 litres, in various shapes. I would give them a call, they probably know a great deal about German rules/regulations pertaining to sizes, installation and use of tanks in mobile homes.
They offer remote filling where you locate the tank wherever you like, and the filling point near the outer wall of your RV where convenient. For offroad trucks with flexible frames, make sure the mounting does not allow any stress on the tank if it is between the frame rails. Perhaps a mount directly to the underside of the camper box if it is mounted on a separate subframe? There is no need to take up interior space with the tank if there is space available between the rails.
They offer a coating ("rockfall protection") to prevent small stones and rocks from chipping/denting the surface as well as protection against rust.
I have Ragasco composite cylinders in my Atego, one 11kg with an "industrial" coupling, and one with a "quick coupling" we use locally in my country (the latter is easiest to exchange at local stations, the industrial is more sturdy and hard wearing). They are great for what they are, but I do notice a bit more condensation, and frost buildup on the sides in winter, compared to alu/steel bottles. They also expire (date) quicker than other bottles, the color of the top states what production group/years they are from (11kg had grey until this year, now they are blue i think, this is locally for Norway).
Make sure you install a gas pressure regulator that is allowed for use while driving (crash sensor installed). The DuoControl is the one I have: http://www.truma.com/int/en/gas-supply/duocontrol-cs.php
Install a remote indicator and you get the EisEx for free (makes sure your pressure regulator does not freeze around 0 degrees. Most other "normal" pluss/minus tempreatures are fine.)
In winter it is very hard to see the gas level with frost on the tanks, but doable. Checking a steel or alu bottle with a levelcheck is very easy as well (http://www.levelcheck.com/).
Last edited: