TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

[egn]

How many LPG (or any fuel) is allowed on a vehicle without special (driving) permission in Europe is regulated by the "European Agreement concerning the International Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road" or in short ADR.

The relevant parts are described in the exemptions, starting at page 30:

1.1.3.2 Exemptions related to the carriage of gases
The provisions laid down in ADR do not apply to the carriage of:
(a) Gases contained in the tanks of a vehicle, performing a transport operation and
destined for its propulsion or for the operation of any of its equipment (e.g.
refrigerating equipment);
...
1.1.3.3 Exemptions related to the carriage of liquid fuels
The provisions laid down in ADR do not apply to the carriage of:
(a) Fuel contained in the tanks of a vehicle performing a transport operation and destined
for its propulsion or for the operation of any of its equipment.
The fuel may be carried in fixed fuel tanks, directly connected to the vehicle's engine
and/or auxiliary equipment, which comply with the pertinent legal provisions, or may
be carried in portable fuel containers (such as jerricans).
The total capacity of the fixed tanks shall not exceed 1500 litres per transport unit and
the capacity of a tank fitted to a trailer shall not exceed 500 litres. A maximum of 60
litres per transport unit may be carried in portable fuel containers. These restrictions
shall not apply to vehicles operated by the emergency services;

I assume (not sure) that LPG counts as liquid fuel and not as gas. So the limit of 1.500 l should apply, otherwise there seems to be no limit.

If you transport dangerous goods like fuel or LPG as load, there is a limit of 1000 (l/kg), which has to be corrected by a multiplication factor. Regular fuel like gasoline or diesel have the multiplication factor of 1, LPG belongs to transport category 2 and has a multiplication factor of 3.

This means, you are allowed to transport 999 l diesel or 333 l LPG without special permission. If you transport both then the sum of the corrected values must stay below 1000.


I avoided all the hassle with LPG by not installing it. Most of the power necessary for running the household and warm water is supplied by solar power most of the time. The fall back is the alternator driven by the diesel engine, with fuel available everywhere.

 

[biotect]

The total capacity of the fixed tanks shall not exceed 1500 litres per transport unit and
the capacity of a tank fitted to a trailer shall not exceed 500 litres. A maximum of 60
litres per transport unit may be carried in portable fuel containers.......


If you transport dangerous goods like fuel or LPG as load, there is a limit of 1000 (l/kg), which has to be corrected by a multiplication factor. Regular fuel like gasoline or diesel have the multiplication factor of 1, LPG belongs to transport category 2 and has a multiplication factor of 3.

This means, you are allowed to transport 999 l diesel or 333 l LPG without special permission. If you transport both then the sum of the corrected values must stay below 1000.

Egn,

As always, very useful information!

This then confirms why, for instance, two 40 lb aluminum LPG cylinders would not be allowed in Europe. Because the 40 lb aluminum cylinders made by Worthington (for instance) hold 35.7 liters, and so two them combined would be 71.4 liters, over the limit for the "maximum of 60 liters per transport unit...in portable fuel containers".

It also suggests another reason why one might want to completely eliminate LPG: because it restricts the amount of diesel that one can carry.

Your Blue Thunder 6x6 carries 1300 liters of diesel -- see http://www.enfatec.de/index.php?id=54 , http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.enfatec.de/index.php?id=54 , http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/20933867/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1.cfm , and http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/11614-MAN-6x6-camper . But if Blue Thunder were carrying LPG, you would have to knock that back down to less than 1000 liters. For instance, if Blue Thunder carried two 30 lb portable LPG cylinders, this would contribute 26.8 liters x 2 = 53.6 liters. Plus a 120 liter fixed LPG tank on top of that, would bring the total to 173.6 liters. Multiply by 3, equals 520.8 liters, which means Blue Thunder's diesel fuel tank would have to be 479.2 liters, or less. So in order to carry just 173.6 liters of LPG propane, Blue Thunder would have to carry about 800 liters less diesel fuel . This is not a good "energy trade-off".

Going back to product-literature for Concorde and Variomobil, turns out that even the largest Concorde models seem to max out at 180 liter diesel fuel tanks -- see http://www.concorde.eu/assets/files/preisliste-2014/14189_PL_2014_LinerPlus_GB_oP_Screen_18.12.pdf , http://www.concorde.eu/assets/files/kataloge-2014/208746_Preisliste_Liner-Centurion_2014_Korr5.pdf . Whereas the larger Variomobil models can have diesel fuel tanks that vary in size from 180 to 300 to 400 liters, depending on the base-chassis used (eg. a MAN TGL at one end, versus a MAN TGS at the other) -- see http://www.vario-mobil.com/en/downl.../e_2014_price list_VARIOmobil_motor homes.pdf . But even 400 liters is not much compared to Blue Thunder's 1,300 liters....

Going back to the product-literature for premium Winnebago and Tiffin models, the Winnebago "Tour" carries 150 gallons of diesel fuel, or 568 liters, while the Tiffin "Phaeton" carries 100 gallons of diesel fuel, or 378 liters -- see http://www.gowinnebago.com/products/2014/tour/specifications/ , http://tiffinmotorhomes.com/pdfs/brochures/2014phaetonBrochure.pdf . The Winnebago, however, has a smaller LPG tank, just 106 liters, so if European rules were to apply to the Winnebago, it would probably be fine. The Tiffin has a larger LPG tank, 135 liters, so that's perhaps why the Tiffin also has a smaller diesel fuel tank, if regulations in the United States are similar to those in Europe. But again, the Winnebago's 150 gallons or 568 liters is not much when compared to Blue Thunder's 1,300 liters.

None of these are expedition motorhomes; rather, they are luxury motorhomes designed to be used in European countries and the United States where good diesel fuel is easy to find. Whereas one wants an expedition motorhome like Blue Thunder to carry at least 1000 liters of fuel, and if possible, the 1,500 liter maximum. So the potential "fuel-penalty" could be as much as 1000 liters, i.e. the difference between carrying 500 liters of diesel + LPG, versus carrying 1,500 liters of diesel and no LPG at all.

This alone strikes me as yet another very strong argument for going all-diesel, at least when it comes to larger, 6x6 expedition motorhomes like Blue Thunder, or the TerraLiner. The fuel-penalty if one carries LPG is so mathematically severe, that for a 6x6 expedition motorhome that should have long-distance capability between refuelings, it simply makes no sense to carry LPG. The beautiful Doleoni MAN-KAT "torsion-free" conversion already discussed a few times in the thread, for instance, carries 1500 liters of diesel, and no LPG:







See http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/man-kat-1-a1/ .

From the point of view of staying warm on the Tibetan plateau diesel also makes sense, because one could simply run the turbo-charged diesel generator, which should have no problems at 5000 m altitude, i.e. 16,400 feet. Of course, the diesel heating elements in the Doleoni MAN KAT will probably not work at 5,000 m, i.e its Webasto DualTop RHA 102 and its Webasto AirTop, as listed in the specification. So a TerraLiner would need some kind of "all-electric" heating system, to work as back-up for when the Webasto or Eberspracher diesel heaters no longer work, past 12 - 13,000 feet altitude. But LPG-fueled systems may not work at extreme altitudes either, although this has not yet been definitively established in the "High Altitude Heating" thread. There I wrote:

But the Alde [water boiler] is LPG, not diesel, and who knows what it's altitude capability would be.

To which Julius replied:

I have tried to search online for altitude limits to LPG systems and found none (using both English, my native Norwegian, as well as “google translated” German.) Maybe this means there are few incidents with this, and that users generally find they work? Surely there must be some “lpg powered” expeditions to high altitudes with online diaries that discuss issues if they had any?

Perhaps LPG heaters like Alde or Truma do work at extreme altitudes, whereas diesel heaters like Webasto and Eberspracher do not. But even if LPG heaters work at extreme altitudes, 1000 liters would be a great deal of diesel fuel to sacrifice for such LPG capability. And so once again I am very strongly inclined to follow your advice, egn, and go "all diesel-electric", completely eliminating LPG from the system.

In closing, it would be interesting to know whether the Doleoni MAN KAT can handle extreme-altitude heating, i.e. heating above 14,000 feet. And if it can, it would be interesting to know how.

All best wishes,



Biotect


PS -- egn, why did you stop at 1,300 liters for Blue Thunder? Why didn't you make Blue Thunder's diesel tank the maximum allowable 1,500 liters?

 

[egn]

It is no problem to run Webasto or Ebersbächer diesel heaters at altitudes above 5000 m. You either connect to the diagnostic interface and reduce the fuel amount to the amount of O2 available, by reducing the rate of the fuel pump is ticking. Or you install additional fuel pumps, which deliver less fuel per tick. A friend has 5 fuel pumps installed for altitudes from 0 m up to 5000 m and can switch them on the fly. I also read about someone who has implemented a rate converter that changes the input rate from the heater to a specific rate according the altitude. At least for some of the current versions there are altitude kits available or they measure the O2 content and adapt dynamically to the altitude.

Of course, all the solutions cause power loss of the heater, just like an engine has less power at higher altitude. So you have to size the heater accordingly to compensate the power loss. And it is recommended that you have a second heating system as backup. But water cooled engines can provide this backup without any problems.

For high altitude travel I also thought about to increase pressure in the cabin a little bit. As side effect this can be used to turbocharge the heater to get full power when necessary.

Originally it was planned to have 1500 l fuel, but finally the space wasn't available in the frame. And I didn't want to loose precious space at other location, just because of 200 l more fuel.

 

[biotect]

I read some favourable remarks about Wynen gas (https://www.wynen-gas.de/tanks-en.html?page=7) from someone outfitting a Sprinter a while back, but can't seem to find where. I believe they deliver tanks to many large manufacturers of mobile homes and expedition RV's. Sizes range from 20 to 200 litres, in various shapes. I would give them a call, they probably know a great deal about German rules/regulations pertaining to sizes, installation and use of tanks in mobile homes.

Julius,

Many thanks for the link to Wynen gas -- that's exactly the kind of company I was looking for, i.e. a specialist supplier of large motorhome-specified fixed propane tanks.

200 liters is huge: 1.764 m long, x 40 cm wide.

However, using the ADR formula that egn just provided, if one carries a 200 liter propane tank, then at most one can carry just 400 liters of diesel fuel. Or even less, if one also carries two portable LPG cylinders in addition to a fixed LPG tank. So if the goal is to carry enough fuel to power one's appliances and heaters for a good stretch between refuelings, then it does seem wiser to go with multiple diesel tanks totaling 1000 - 1500 liters, as per egn's Blue Thunder or the Doleoni MAN KAT, instead of a massive 200 liter propane tank.

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[derjack]

Hi,

sorry I don't have the time actually to read everything in these looong posts. But if i remember correctly there was a question on the size of available propane gas tanks, distribution etc.

Here is a common link or more precise a dealer for different kind of tanks: http://www.gasfachfrau.de/1eng_index.html
This is the English version. This surely helps to get an overview of what's available/allowed.

PS: I plan an installation of propane too for my rig- however just a standard 5kg (~12ib). That's why I have the PDF by hand. In EU/GER there is a huge difference between a tank INSIDE the caravan (not=camper) and outside!
Inside a gas secured box must be installed and there is a max of- I remember- 11kg or so. OUTSIDE the tank must have a permission, that's checked every 2 years, BUT it can be very much BIGGER. outside means outside the canine, like mounted to the frame.

Btw. I read about 300l of propane/lpg tanks. Are you sure you need that amount of gas? I used 5kg at home for months for cooking. Sure you use lpg also for heating/fridge/warm water. But you can get Portland everywhere in Europe easily.

 

[optimusprime]

How many LPG (or any fuel) is allowed on a vehicle without special (driving) permission in Europe is regulated by the "European Agreement concerning the International Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road" or in short ADR.

The relevant parts are described in the exemptions, starting at page 30:


I assume (not sure) that LPG counts as liquid fuel and not as gas. So the limit of 1.500 l should apply, otherwise there seems to be no limit.

If you transport dangerous goods like fuel or LPG as load, there is a limit of 1000 (l/kg), which has to be corrected by a multiplication factor. Regular fuel like gasoline or diesel have the multiplication factor of 1, LPG belongs to transport category 2 and has a multiplication factor of 3.

This means, you are allowed to transport 999 l diesel or 333 l LPG without special permission. If you transport both then the sum of the corrected values must stay below 1000.


I avoided all the hassle with LPG by not installing it. Most of the power necessary for running the household and warm water is supplied by solar power most of the time. The fall back is the alternator driven by the diesel engine, with fuel available everywhere.

The ADR regulations only cover transportation in a commercial situation.
This is what hauliers have to adhere to when transporting gas cylinders around,the drivers have to carry a card on them to prove they are trained in,and compliant with, all regs dealing with carrying such cargo.

 

[biotect]

A friend has 5 fuel pumps installed for altitudes from 0 m up to 5000 m and can switch them on the fly. I also read about someone who has implemented a rate converter that changes the input rate from the heater to a specific rate according the altitude. At least for some of the current versions there are altitude kits available or they measure the O2 content and adapt dynamically to the altitude.

For high altitude travel I also thought about to increase pressure in the cabin a little bit. As side effect this can be used to turbocharge the heater to get full power when necessary....

Hi egn,

Is this your friend?:







See https://sites.google.com/site/whitemankat/about-us/fahrzeug-daten-technik/fahrer-haus-heizung , http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...us/fahrzeug-daten-technik/fahrer-haus-heizung , https://jujo00obo2o234ungd3t8qjfcjrs3o6k-a-sites-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/ifr?url=http://www.gstatic.com/sites-gadgets/embed/embed.xml&container=enterprise&view=home&lang=de&country=ALL&sanitize=0&v=b6b44a81eb247b44&libs=core:setprefs&parent=https://sites.google.com/site/whitemankat/about-us/fahrzeug-daten-technik/fahrer-haus-heizung#up_embed_snippet=<embed+xmlns%3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"+flashvars%3D"host%3Dpicasaweb.google.com%26amp;hl%3Dde%26amp;feat%3Dflashalbum%26amp;RGB%3D0x000000%26amp;feed%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fpicasaweb.google.com%2Fdata%2Ffeed%2Fapi%2Fuser%2Fwhitemankat4%2Falbumid%2F5614273466992832561%3Falt%3Drss%26kind%3Dphoto%26hl%3Dde"+height%3D"400"+pluginspage%3D"http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"+src%3D"https://picasaweb.google.com/s/c/bin/slideshow.swf"+type%3D"application/x-shockwave-flash"+width%3D"600"+/>&st=e%3DAIHE3cCc6H0fT38vRS%2FVn%2F1v%2FAfASFRr0Sqalr7kx%2FLaQ4dMRgGdvyFhztMd%2BaqW0cOlKHhLkpDK2NYFpqfsolX8WxL51AjWGOi5caX8cCQqzSDkSskJTVmS%2Bp8rcJfU1vGRXZYC8I%2BU%26c%3Denterprise&rpctoken=-4088932420771206846 , and https://picasaweb.google.com/whitemankat4/AirtronikM?feat=flashalbum#5614273706030409186 .

How were you thinking of increasing cabin pressure? What mechanism/systems?

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[biotect]

Hi,

Here is a common link or more precise a dealer for different kind of tanks: http://www.gasfachfrau.de/1eng_index.html

Btw. I read about 300l of propane/lpg tanks. Are you sure you need that amount of gas? I used 5kg at home for months for cooking. Sure you use lpg also for heating/fridge/warm water. But you can get Portland everywhere in Europe easily.

Hi derjack,

Many thanks for yet another German-propane link, and this one also looks excellent!

No, I'm not certain that a TerraLiner would need 100 - 200 liters of propane. I haven't gotten down to the detailed technical level of calculating appliance energy consumption, factoring in the extra fuel needed for heating during the winter, etc. etc. I am still just "roughing in" the overall configuration, with a view to an SOR, a "statement of requirements", which I've now realized must include Tibetan altitude capability. That's why I became so intensely interested in LoRoad's "High Altitude Heating" thread.

In short, I just wanted to develop a general idea of how propane works, and what the pluses and minuses might be of propane versus all-diesel/electric.

But what egn just wrote above seems critically decisive, and will probably settle things for me. If carrying propane means the TerraLiner's diesel tank can be only 500 - 600 liters, or less, then going all-diesel/electric makes very good sense, for this reason alone. And there's certainly a precedent, given that some of the best examples of 6x6 expedition motorhomes built so far, like Blue Thunder and the Doleoni MAN KAT, have eliminated propane, and carry 1300 - 1500 liters of diesel fuel.

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[derjack]

Hi derjack,

Many thanks for yet another German-propane link, and this one looks terrific!

No, I'm not certain that a TerraLiner would need 100 - 200 liters of propane. I haven't gotten down to the detailed technical level of calculating appliance energy consumption, factoring in the extra fuel needed for heating during the winter, etc. etc. I am still just "roughing in" the overall configuration, with a view to an SOR, a "statement of requirements", which I've now realized must include Tibetan altitude capability. That's why I became so intensely interested in LoRoad's "High Altitude Heating" thread.

In short, I just wanted to develop a rough idea of how propane works, and what the plusses and minuses might be of propane versus all-diesel/electric. But what egn just wrote above seems critically decisive, and will probably settle things for me. If carrying propane means the TerraLiner's diesel tank can only be 500 - 600 liters, or less, then going all-diesel/electric makes very good sense, for this reason alone. And there's certainly a precedent, given that some of the best examples of 6x6 expedition motorhomes built so far, like Blue Thunder and the DeLeoni MAN KAT, have eliminated propane.

All best wishes,


Biotect

Hi,

OK I see. A configuration for Tibetan altitude/Temp is a different POV for sure.
Altitude and the very low temperatures are something to consider carefully on propane.
Outside central/south Europe+north Africa there's butane more common than PROpane. Just a note.

 

[optimusprime]

Hi,

OK I see. A configuration for Tibetan altitude/Temp is a different POV for sure.
Altitude and the very low temperatures are something to consider carefully on propane.
Outside central/south Europe+north Africa there's butane more common than PROpane. Just a note.

Thee is a very good reason propane is used over butane in 'outside' conditions.given that most storage facilities on vehicles for gas tanks/cylinders are not kept heated or insulated.........




LPG boils to produce gas (vapour).
Butane boils at -0.5°C so when the ambient temperature falls to around freezing no gas is produced and even at around +4°C the pressure is too low to be useful.
Propane boils at -42°C so can be used in arctic conditions.

 

[optimusprime]

Propane, Butane and Isobutane all have similar heat values and work more or less the same above freezing temperatures. These fuels will not work well bellow their respective boiling points since they won't be able to build up sufficient pressure for stove operation. So the differences in fuel performance for the most part relates to fuel's boiling points and use in low temperatures. The lower the boiling point, the less likely it will fail in the cold.

It is important to note that the known boiling point of your fuel isn't necessarily the lowest temperature you would be able to operate in a stove in the real world. For a stove to operate, you need to have enough gas pressure above the atmospheric pressure to force enough gas out of your stove to stay lit. And since fuel continues to cools off as it vaporizes (latent heat of vaporization) and feeds your stove, your fuel must be warm enough to allow for the loss of a few degrees for it so still work long enough to finish cooking or to allow for thermal feedback from the stove.

As you climb in altitude, the boiling point of fuel and water decrease as atmospheric pressure decreases. Higher altitudes actually allow gas stoves to operate at lower temperatures. On the downside, cook times are increased as boiling water isn't as hot as it is at sea level. Plus, decreased oxygen levels at high altitude will decrease stove performance and require it to run longer and use up more fuel.


Propane (LPG, Liquefied Propane Gas)
This is a great hot burning fuel that works at low temperatures and at high altitudes. Due to high pressures of propane (close to five times that of butane at room temperature), propane canisters are often made from of thick heavy gauge steel. Pure propane is not recommended for stoves designed to run mostly butane and/or isobutane without a pressure regulator or careful user control.

Propane is generally used for heavy duty stoves, lanterns, heaters and torches. It can be much easier to find and more affordable than other gas fuels for stoves. Propane is often available at hardware and grocery stores.

Boiling point: -43° F (-40°C). Fuel will not vaporize well below its boiling point.

Butane (n-butane)
Works well at high altitudes but burns poorly below 40° F due to poor vaporization at low temperatures. Butane is commonly used in backpacking and portable stoves, lighters, small torches and as a propellant for aerosol cans.

Boiling point: 31° F (-0.5°C). Fuel will not vaporize well below its boiling point.

Isobutane
Isobutane is a structural isomer of butane with a lower boiling point. Manufactures claim that isobutane provides a steady flow without tapering off as the canister empties and is added to butane to increase its performance. Because of the greater vapor pressures of isobutane compared to butane, you may experience much greater gas flow. This increased pressure can cause a stove to blow itself out if it is turned up too high or possibly even damage a stove not designed for isobutane.

Boiling point: 11° F (-12°C). Fuel will not vaporize well below its boiling point.

Isobutane and/or propane are often added to butane to allow stoves and lanterns to operate at subfreezing temperatures. These fuel mixes don't affect the vaporization of butane and each fuel vaporizes separately. This is important to know because at temperatures below the boiling point of butane, the added fuels will vaporize and be used up first. If your canister isn't warmed by heat from the burning of the more volatile fuels by the stove, these fuels will burn off first and leave you with cold and unusable butane remaining.

Isobutane/Butane Blends
Basically, isobutane may allow you to operate your stove at subfreezing temperatures down to 11° F (-12°C) at sea level, that is - until the isobutane runs out.


Propane mixes (20-40% Propane) (Butane/Propane, Butane/Isobutane/Propane, Isobutane/Propane, IsoPro, IsoPropane)
The higher the propane content, the longer it will burn at lower temperatures. You may still end up with most of the butane and/or isobutane remaining in the canister if using a stove below 31° F (0.5°C) or 11° F (-12°C) respectively depending on altitude.

 

[biotect]

Hi optimusprime,

That's some very interesting background about propane versus butane, etc.

One of the puzzles that emerged on the "High Altitude Heating" thread, was whether diesel heaters like the Webasto Dual Top, the Truma Combi 6 D E, or the Eberspracher Hydronic MII-10 or 12 can work well above 13,000 feet. The consensus seems to be that the Webasto and Truma can work well up to 10,000 feet, even though their official altitude limits are lower than that. The Webasto has an integrated automatic altitude sensor that adjusts the fuel up to 2,200 m, or 7,200 feet; the Truma has the same, that automatically adjusts the fuel up to 2,750 m, or 9,000 feet.

The Eberspracher, on the other hand, which is an engine-mounted "hydronic" heater/heat-exchanger, adjusts automatically up to 3,500 m, or 11,500 feet. So one could probably "push" the Eberspracher even further than that, up to 12,000 or 13,000 feet. For further discussion, see http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page3 , http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page4 , and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page5 (standard ExPo pagination).

But beyond 12 - 13,000 feet, as egn suggested, one needs to intervene somehow to reduce the amount of fuel available, so that it corresponds to the reduced amount of 02:

It is no problem to run Webasto or Ebersbächer diesel heaters at altitudes above 5000 m. You either connect to the diagnostic interface and reduce the fuel amount to the amount of O2 available, by reducing the rate of the fuel pump is ticking. Or you install additional fuel pumps, which deliver less fuel per tick. A friend has 5 fuel pumps installed for altitudes from 0 m up to 5000 m and can switch them on the fly. I also read about someone who has implemented a rate converter that changes the input rate from the heater to a specific rate according the altitude. At least for some of the current versions there are altitude kits available or they measure the O2 content and adapt dynamically to the altitude.

Of course, all the solutions cause power loss of the heater, just like an engine has less power at higher altitude. So you have to size the heater accordingly to compensate the power loss. And it is recommended that you have a second heating system as backup. But water cooled engines can provide this backup without any problems.

Personally, I would tend to favor the second option, installing an extra fuel pump or two: one pump to deliver less fuel for 3,000 m - 4,000 m, and the second pump to deliver less fuel for 4,000 m to 5,000 m. In other words, a slightly abridged version of the system shown in post #399. The system shown in post #399 seems to have been installed before automatically self-adjusting heaters of the kind just described came on the market. Ergo, the system shown in post #399 also has separate pumps for 1000 m - 2000 m, and 2000 m - 3000 m. Whereas with the new, automatically self-adjusting, altitude-sensitive heaters now available, these first two increments would presumably no longer be necessary.

Note that the problem here is not really temperature, because the Tibetan plateau does not get that cold in the summer, when one might typically be crossing it. Or, at least, not Arctic or Antarctic-level cold. Rather, the problem is altitude, lowered air pressure, and hence, less O2 available. That's why turbo-charged diesel engines and generators are so attractive, because the turbocharger will ram air into the engine no matter what the outside air pressure.

I am now fairly committed to "all diesel-electric", as per egn's Blue Thunder 6x6 expedition motorhome. But I am still curious about how propane handles at high-altitude. It seems plausible that because propane is fed pressurized from a cylinder, propane stoves, heaters, refrigerators, etc. should be "altitude immune". But I am just speculating here; I really have no idea. Julius did a search trying to find out how LPG handles altitude, but could not seem to find anything.

So if you (or anyone else reading this) might be willing to shed some light on this question of propane and altitude, specifically (as opposed to temperature....), that would be great.

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[optimusprime]

Hi optimusprime,

That's some very interesting background about propane versus butane, etc.

One of the puzzles that emerged on the "High Altitude Heating" thread, was whether diesel heaters like the Webasto Dual Top, the Truma Combi 6 D E, or the Eberspracher Hydronic MII-10 or 12 can work well above 13,000 feet. The consensus seems to be that the Webasto and Truma can work well up to 10,000 feet, even though their official altitude limits are lower than that. The Webasto has an integrated automatic altitude sensor that adjusts the fuel up to 2,200 m, or 7,200 feet; the Truma has the same, that automatically adjusts the fuel up to 2,750 m, or 9,000 feet.

The Eberspracher, on the other hand, which is an engine-mounted "hydronic" heater/heat-exchanger, adjusts automatically up to 3,500 m, or 11,500 feet. So one could probably "push" the Eberspracher even further than that, up to 12,000 or 13,000 feet. For further discussion, see http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page3 , http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page4 , and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page5 (standard ExPo pagination).

But beyond 12 - 13,000 feet, as egn suggested, one needs to intervene somehow to reduce the amount of fuel available, so that it corresponds to the reduced amount of 02:



Personally, I would tend to favor the second option, installing an extra fuel pump or two: one pump to deliver less fuel for 3,000 m - 4,000 m, and the second pump to deliver less fuel for 4,000 m to 5,000 m. In other words, a slightly abridged version of the system shown in post #399. The system shown in post #399 seems to have been installed before automatically self-adjusting heaters of the kind just described came on the market. Ergo, the system shown in post #399 also has separate pumps for 1000 m - 2000 m, and 2000 m - 3000 m. Whereas with the new, automatically self-adjusting, altitude-sensitive heaters now available, these first two increments would presumably no longer be necessary.

Note that the problem here is not really temperature, because the Tibetan plateau does not get that cold in the summer, when one might typically be crossing it. Or, at least, not Arctic or Antarctic-level cold. Rather, the problem is altitude, lowered air pressure, and hence, less O2 available. That's why turbo-charged diesel engines and generators are so attractive, because the turbocharger will ram air into the engine no matter what the outside air pressure.

I am now fairly committed to "all diesel-electric", as per egn's Blue Thunder 6x6 expedition motorhome. But I am still curious about how propane handles at high-altitude. It seems plausible that because propane is fed pressurized from a cylinder, propane stoves, heaters, refrigerators, etc. should be "altitude immune". But I am just speculating here; I really have no idea. Julius did a search trying to find out how LPG handles altitude, but could not seem to find anything.

So if you (or anyone else reading this) might be willing to shed some light on this question of propane and altitude, specifically (as opposed to temperature....), that would be great.

All best wishes,


Biotect

First off I must say I am not a gas engineer,and have not worked in the power or heat industry.
I have done a dangerous goods course,(not quite the ADR one mentioned previous) so my limited knowledge is what I've picked up over the yrs.

I'm thinking that altitude shouldn't be an issue with pressurised cylinders of propane for actually burning,it's what you want to use it for when it's alight that you have to take into account.

Water boils at 100 degrees ..but that's at 'sea level' up Everest it'll boil, but at a lower temp,but the flame is still the same heat.

To my mind the issue with the heating would be in the actual method of supplying the heat, for instance would you use a warm air blower affair,radiator type of heating,or underfloor hot water type of affair.
Each method would have their own pluses and minuses,or more importantly, method of supply.
(If you see what I mean)

 

[biotect]

Here is a common link or more precise a dealer for different kind of tanks: http://www.gasfachfrau.de/1eng_index.html
This is the English version. This surely helps to get an overview of what's available/allowed.

PS: I plan an installation of propane too for my rig- however just a standard 5kg (~12ib). That's why I have the PDF by hand. In EU/GER there is a huge difference between a tank INSIDE the caravan (not=camper) and outside!
Inside a gas secured box must be installed and there is a max of- I remember- 11kg or so. OUTSIDE the tank must have a permission, that's checked every 2 years, BUT it can be very much BIGGER. outside means outside the canine, like mounted to the frame.

Btw. I read about 300l of propane/lpg tanks. Are you sure you need that amount of gas? I used 5kg at home for months for cooking. Sure you use lpg also for heating/fridge/warm water. But you can get Portland everywhere in Europe easily.

Derjack,

Just wanted to mention that I had some time to look over "Gas Frach Frau", and gosh, what a superb website for LPG!!!

It's important to realize that Gas Frach Frau's "Shop" is a more or less a separate website -- see https://www.gasfachfrau.eu/en/ , https://www.gasfachfrau.eu/en/alugas.html , https://www.gasfachfrau.eu/en/id-11-kg-109.html , https://www.gasfachfrau.eu/en/id-14-kg.html , https://www.gasfachfrau.eu/en/camping-accessoires.html . Whereas the link you provided was for the "infomercial" end of things.

But the real bonus was the page with links to websites that list LPG Gas stations in Europe -- http://www.gasfachfrau.de/1eng_tankstellen.html .

And here, the "jackpot" website is http://www.mylpg.eu/stations/ . "mylpg.eu" is a real find.

Other websites for LPG in Europe tend to be little more than mere lists of links to local, country-specific websites for LPG. And typically, at least half the links on such websites are thoroughly dead. See for instance http://www.iwemalpg.com/LPGstations.htm , http://www.autogastanken.de/de/tanken/autogastankstellen-in-europa.html , and http://www.autogas-forum.de/links/links-e.htm#7 . When a link to a country-specific LPG-locator website works, it's certainly a good resource to have. But even then, country-specific LPG websites tend to be written in the national language of the country in question. Whereas what's really wanted is a LPG-locater website that covers all of Europe, and where one can switch easily between languages, choosing the language one speaks best. And, of course, with English as one of the options.

That's where "mylpg.eu" might fill an important need. It seems to be a well-maintained "master" website, one that systematically covers LPG in all EU countries, with excellent maps, lists of addresses, and so too downloads that will work with Garmin's POI function. See for instance http://www.mylpg.eu/stations/ , http://www.mylpg.eu/stations/austria , http://www.mylpg.eu/stations/austria/map , http://www.mylpg.eu/stations/austria/list , http://www.mylpg.eu/stations/austria/news , and http://www.mylpg.eu/stations/austria/poi :





A somewhat similar on-line resource would be POI Plaza -- see http://poiplaza.com/index.php?p=ds&s=318 . Searching specifically for LPG-Autogas in a particular country, will yield results like http://poiplaza.com/?sdbd=3973 , http://poiplaza.com/index.php?p=sdb&d=1360&lstpg=ds&lsts=318 , etc. But it doesn't seem quite as good as mylpg.eu .

On Gas Fach Frau there are also links to PC, Android, and Apple Mobile LPG-locator apps -- again, see http://www.gasfachfrau.de/1eng_tankstellen.html , https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lpg-europe/id391091803?mt=8 , http://www.pcwelt.de/apps/LPG-CNG-Finder-for-Europe-3312173.html , and http://www.androidpit.de/de/android...dapr.lpgfinder.activity/lpg-cng-finder-europa .

This is information that does not seem to be available elsewhere. For instance, none of this information is provided at the end of the Douglas Hackney's otherwise excellent pdf, "Propane Systems for Expedition Vehicles" -- see http://hackneystravel.com/wp/2008/06/01/propane-systems-for-expedition-vehicles/ , http://www.hackneys.com/travel/docs/propane4xvehicles.pdf . And it's information that also does not seem to be provided on Travelin-Tortuga's otherwise excellent website -- see http://www.travelin-tortuga.com/Travelin-Tortuga/ , http://www.travelin-tortuga.com/Travelin-Tortuga/our-vehicle/ , and http://www.travelin-tortuga.com/Travelin-Tortuga/travel-information/europe-by-motorhome.html . Instead, at the bottom of Travelin-Tortuga's "our vehicle" webpage, there is only a link to the IWEMA enterprise website, which again, is merely a list of links to national LPG websites. And about half of those links are no longer working -- see http://www.iwemalpg.com/LPGstations.htm . For instance, as of this writing, the links to France and Germany still work, but not the links for Belgium and Greece....


Questions:

Now it stands to reason that mobile Apps should exist that work in concert with a GPS to help one easily locate LPG in Europe. I then wonder what the equivalent App would be in North America? And whether similar Apps exist for LPG on other continents, in Japan, Australia, China, and Latin America?


All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[biotect]

How many LPG (or any fuel) is allowed on a vehicle without special (driving) permission in Europe is regulated by the "European Agreement concerning the International Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road" or in short ADR.

The relevant parts are described in the exemptions, starting at page 30:


I assume (not sure) that LPG counts as liquid fuel and not as gas. So the limit of 1.500 l should apply, otherwise there seems to be no limit.

If you transport dangerous goods like fuel or LPG as load, there is a limit of 1000 (l/kg), which has to be corrected by a multiplication factor. Regular fuel like gasoline or diesel have the multiplication factor of 1, LPG belongs to transport category 2 and has a multiplication factor of 3.

This means, you are allowed to transport 999 l diesel or 333 l LPG without special permission. If you transport both then the sum of the corrected values must stay below 1000.


I avoided all the hassle with LPG by not installing it. Most of the power necessary for running the household and warm water is supplied by solar power most of the time. The fall back is the alternator driven by the diesel engine, with fuel available everywhere.

Egn:

Again, many thanks for this information. Because of what you wrote, it now seems clear to me that it's best to configure a 6x6 expedition vehicle like your Blue Thunder, or like the Doleoni MAN-KAT, carrying 1,300 - 1,500 liters of diesel fuel, and no propane.

However, I was just wondering: if one were to carry a bit of propane fuel for an outdoor barbecue, in a non-fixed portable LPG cylinder, do these rules suddenly come into effect? Would just that little bit of propane for an outdoor barbecue suddenly mean that one could carry only 999 liters or less, according to the formula you described, quoted above?

And one more question. Suppose one were traveling in western Europe, where LPG is widely available, diesel is abundant and cheap, and one doesn't really need to fill up one's main diesel tank to 1,500 liters. Could one fill up one's tank to, say, 699 liters of diesel instead, and then carry 100 liters of propane? Sure, the 100 liters of propane would be subject to a multiplication factor of 3, so 300 + 699 = 999, which is still below the 1000 liter limit. Would anyone ever "check" to see that's one's diesel tank is in fact only filled with only 699 liters, instead of 1,500 liters?

Or, to put the question another way: would the mere presence on board of a diesel tank that could potentially take 1,500 liters, automatically disqualify a vehicle from carrying propane? Even if the tank is filled just with 699 liters, for instance, as per the scenario just described?

All best wishes,



Biotect