TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

[Amphibeast]

Busses too now Biotech? LOL…… I have a 50' Carpenter School Bus that I have been converting for the best of a decade now…. It is the reverse pic of the Humvee vs. School bus pic! I have added a front of a Hummer onto the bus front clip, chopped the top, added AC, BBQ, Big stereo…. and of coarse a huge lift on 54" XZLs! I should finish it by the summer this year & we are stitching upholstery this week! If my balls & bank account are big enough I will get some of my frankensteins up the hill to Expo this year in Flag, Az! I have been slow to show any pics as I am launching a company around them with all my crazy ideas…. Should be a kick in the pants for marketing! I'll keep you posted there as well as the 8x8 amphibious! (just got the alternator & starters converted & switched to 12V…. still chasing down the bellows/boots…… If my ADD doesn't kick in I'll chase down some leeds tonight.. Would love to swim the beast by summer too!)

 

[biotect]

Hi Amphibeast,

Good to hear from you.

Yeah, I guess I like school-bus conversions for four reasons:


(1) Their indestructible space frames, and "fully integrated" body/chassis designs, especially in a school-bus like the Crown. Fully integrated from an engineering point of view, that is, and not just a design point of view. Their bodies and chassis are designed to be a single, integrated frame:








This is very similar to the tubular space frame integrated with monocoque body that I have in mind for the TerraLiner. Or similar to the "vertical chassis/body integration" that Prevost claims for its bus and motorhome designs -- see posts #732 to #726 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page74 :







Whereas most mainstream "fully integrated" motorhomes are integrated only at the level of design, not at the level of engineering. The motorhome body is simply built on top of a pre-existing two-rail "ladder" chassis. As some suggest, the result is not as rigid, robust, and secure as one might like. See the following videos made by Roadmaster/Monaco, which suggest why:



[video=youtube;HCBxotjCG7c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCBxotjCG7c [/video] [video=youtube;QJrsODjkGbM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJrsODjkGbM [/video]



(2) The curved roofs of school-buses, which in turn means that their interior ceilings are curved too. I like Airstream trailers for the same reason.

(3) The overall exterior shape and styling of older school-buses, pre-1970.

(4) Their abundant windowing. Some school-bus conversions block out many or even most of the windows, but others will leave all the windows in place. The resulting interiors are full of light, and feel very spacious.


All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[grizzlyj]

Hiya

Are these the first two prototypes?

I know the tyres might be a little larger than you want but with driver over front mounted genny plus axle travel plus clearance etc etc they can't be far off what you'll end up with for low profile surf trips? :elkgrin:

 

[biotect]

Hi grizzlyj,

This is certainly a very interesting vehicle. The company that makes them, Foremost Industries, calls it a "Terrabus" -- see http://www.foremost.ca , http://www.foremost.ca/products , http://www.foremost.ca/products/vehicles , http://www.foremost.ca/products/multi-passenger-transportation-units , http://www.foremost.ca/products/terra-bus , http://www.foremost.ca/products/terra-bus , and http://www.foremost.ca/sites/default/files/images/terra_bus.pdf . One very old example is still working in Antarctica.

For a long, extended discussion of the Terrabus, and for lots of imagery and videos, see posts #23 to #27 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...p-High-Altitude-Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet/page3 , and posts #40 and #41, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...p-High-Altitude-Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet/page4 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...p-High-Altitude-Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet/page5 .

Yes, I have something similar in mind (but as you suggest, without the big tires). Except that I've put abundant windows in the Pop-Up, not in the lower box of the camper. Furthermore, the Terrabus is much too wide (3.61 m), much too long (14.89 m), much too heavy (25,000 kg), and its top speed is only 40 kmh. The Terrabus seems designed for one and only one, very specific application, namely, ferrying tourists to the Columbia Ice-Field in western Canada. Otherwise, the Terrabus does not seem suited to do much else, except ferrying passengers from the airfield to McMurdo Station in Antarctica.

Instead, trucks that travel the Trans-Siberian and Kolyma highways in winter in Russia will be Kamaz, Tatra, MAN, MAN-KAT conversions, etc. Here are some videos of Russian trucks driving in winter:






The first video above is short, but really interesting. It's in Russian, with subtitles in English, and describes in graphic detail what long-haul trucking means in Siberia, during Russia's extreme winters. Siberian truckers actually live and sleep in their truck cabs; there are no hotels. So their rigs bear more than a passing resemblance to expedition motorhomes.....

For more imagery and some great videos, see posts #14 and #15 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...p-High-Altitude-Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet/page2 , post #66 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...p-High-Altitude-Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet/page7 , and posts #928 to #932 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page93 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page94 .


All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[dwh]

Of course, all of that super-sturdy tank-like integrated space frame strength goes right out the window when you start making the thing expandable in 3 dimensions...not sure if it would weaken the structure if you expanded into the 4th dimension though...

 

[biotect]

Of course, all of that super-sturdy tank-like integrated space frame strength goes right out the window when you start making the thing expandable in 3 dimensions...not sure if it would weaken the structure if you expanded into the 4th dimension though...

Hi dwh,

It all depends. For instance, if the lower box has ceiling across at least 2/3 of its length, as per UniCat pop-ups, then this ceiling could indeed constitute an integral part of the combined body/chassis space-frame. And it could have integrated roll-over bars, just like the 26 roll bars in a Crown. This first ceiling then becomes the second floor when the pop-up is extended.

Sure, the pop-up itself cannot act as a protective roll-cage. But the ceiling across the lower box can. In a roll-over the pop-up would certainly be wrecked. But needless to say, the same is true of a UniCat pop-up when it rolls over. Except that, as near as I can tell, UniCat does not build its camper boxes sturdy enough to survive any kind of roll-over. As near as I can tell, in the event of a rollover, not just the pop-up but the whole camper box in a UniCat would be destroyed.

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[Amphibeast]

On my Carpenter bus, the roll cages are spaced 24" like the like the Crown the length of the vehicle. To do the second level I used 1-1/2" steel square tube directly bolted thru the roll bars at the center, extending out to the edges dropping 10" to make a flat floor on top. each crossmember is secured with 12 bolts on each. As I modified my bus there was no doubt these things are built like tanks. I feel the weakest point in the body is the 90 degree corners where the walls meet the floor. However mine were reinforced internally with very heavy wood cabinets & structure material internally. I basically have 3 tool cages as the the floor on the 2nd level is a structural dock integrating aluminum planks…. So it is the planks, steel sub-frame, then the tool bars of the bus body itself… The weight was a wash as the windows that were removed weighed about 60lbs each x 56 windows…. 3,360lbs in glass!… not to mention the seats & seat frames which were another 2000lbs…. I removed the rear 10' of frame & roof on the back for a deck/storage area…. the 10' section of roof was a hell of a ton of weight as well… Yup I know bus frames!… 1-1/2" tube steel on the walls from the factory! Made it easy to fab in new doors & windows etc……. Yeah, I know…. where are the pics????? soon…. I wanna use it for marketing before I plaster it all over the internet!

 

[Amphibeast]

On my Carpenter bus, the roll cages are spaced 24" like the like the Crown the length of the vehicle. To do the second level I used 1-1/2" steel square tube directly bolted thru the roll bars at the center, extending out to the edges dropping 10" to make a flat floor on top. each crossmember is secured with 12 bolts on each. As I modified my bus there was no doubt these things are built like tanks. I feel the weakest point in the body is the 90 degree corners where the walls meet the floor. However mine were reinforced internally with very heavy wood cabinets & structure material internally. I basically have 3 tool cages as the the floor on the 2nd level is a structural dock integrating aluminum planks…. So it is the planks, steel sub-frame, then the tool bars of the bus body itself… The weight was a wash as the windows that were removed weighed about 60lbs each x 56 windows…. 3,360lbs in glass!… not to mention the seats & seat frames which were another 2000lbs…. I removed the rear 10' of frame & roof on the back for a deck/storage area…. the 10' section of roof was a hell of a ton of weight as well… Yup I know bus frames!… 1-1/2" tube steel on the walls from the factory! Made it easy to fab in new doors & windows etc……. Yeah, I know…. where are the pics????? soon…. I wanna use it for marketing before I plaster it all over the internet!

( Tool cages=roll cages…oops…sorry for typo!)

 

[Haf-E]

I grew up riding in to school in Crown school buses and they were always my favorite. I always imagined one painted up like an old split window VW bus with additional curved "alpine" windows in the roof - similar to the 21/23 window VW deluxe buses - which was the first car I purchased. The crown's always seemed to ride better than the others - probably because they weighed more than the others and had the mid mounted engine giving better weight on the rear axle when lightly loaded. Don't think we had any of the Super coaches with the tandem rear axles - although I did see a very nice one at Burning Man one year that was sold off by the US air force and had a nice wood interior.

I don't have a similar affection for any of the school buses I see used today - all of them are too slab sided or look like trucks - not much style.

Here is a cute conversion:

Well enough about buses - when are we going to talk about drivetrain / suspensions again?

 

[biotect]

Hi Haf-E,

You really are an engineer at heart!! Just a few weeks ago you stated that the drivetrain / suspension discussion was wearing a bit thin, and that you are now more interested in the "packaging":

Biotect -

I think you need to just come up with a proposed drivetrain solution and move forward with it - as you said - this is an Art / Design school project so it isn't going to be built (yet...).

The Jenoptik generators look perfect for the application - they use a Steyr "monoblock" engine with an integrated flywheel PM generator which is top notch technology. They are small enough. Two of them would provide plenty of power.

Combined with the proposed drivetrain of theee induction motors with planetary gearbox and hub reduction straight axles I think you have a SUITABLE solution - best to move on with the rest of the design. As you already mentioned - most of the similar designs don't even specify the drivetrain layout - they just assume it would fit and be suitable.....

The real interesting part to me is the overall packaging and design - even I am tired of the discussion of drivetrain configuration and solid axle versus independent suspension options. It's a topic which will never be settled... And the end design could be switched to something different probably fairly easily if it had to.

In past engineering/design projects we often would ask if it was time to "shoot the engineer" and just get on with actually making a product - I think it is time...

Haf-e

And indeed, finding inspiration in school bus designs and skoolie conversions is all about the "packaging"......:sombrero:

But seriously, glad that you like Crown buses, and that you like the more "ovoid" or "curvilinear" shapes that school-buses still had prior to the 1970's. Also good to hear that you are a fan of the VW Kombi "Samba", with roof-line windows; and that you are sympathetic to the idea of "scaling up" the design spirit of a VW Kombi to the size of a large motorhome, i.e. the size of the TerraLiner.

Here are some more images of old, wonderfully curvilinear buses with roof-line windows:









See http://www.classicbuses.co.uk/rally.html , http://www.busmag.com/mci-celebrates-80-years-bus-production/ , http://bringatrailer.com/2013/10/02/swiss-alp-skylights-preserved-1956-fbw-c40u-bus/ , http://www.thegallerybrummen.nl/en_EN/autobedrijf/collectie/6471959/details.html , https://www.flickr.com/photos/cadillac_v16/6806492819/in/photostream/ , http://www.henderson-tele.com/cat/uk/60s-and-70s-Buses.html , and http://bringatrailer.com/2013/07/27/swiss-hockey-hauler-1961-mercedes-benz-o321h/ .

As for returning the discussion to drivetrain /suspensions: it would be great if anyone reading this could find/post information about additional hybrid-specific diesel-electric generators, in addition to the Jenoptik flywheel generator, which was developed to power hybrid transit vehicles -- see http://www.jenoptik.com/en_30134_auxiliary_power_units and http://www.jenoptik.com/en_generic_productpage?open&reopen=prod..&pid=3689&ccm=050 .


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1. A Series of Posts about the Oshkosh MTVR


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It would also be good to know what generator(s) Oshkosh uses in its Propulse hybrid system. We know that Oshkosh uses Maxwell ultra-capacitors, but it would be great to find out what make/manufacturer of generator Oshkosh uses, and what make/manufacturer of electric motors. Because I got a bit obsessed with school bus conversions, I still haven't quite finished the series of Oshkosh postings earlier in the thread, post #1195 and following. I will try to finish that particular series this weekend, and once I am done, I will have posted pretty much all the material collected so far about Oshkosh's Propulse hybrid solution.

The most relevant pages in the Oshkosh PDFs that I provided are those that explicitly describe the power capabilities of the MTVR – see posts #1200 and #1201, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1744059#post1744059 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...edition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page121 .

The Oshkosh MTVR is typically a 6x6, and in terms of size and tonnage it most closely resembles the Terraliner – see http://oshkoshdefense.com/vehicles/mtvr/ , http://oshkoshdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/MTVR_Bro_Single_6-13-11.pdf , http://oshkoshdefense.com/variants/4x4-short-bed-cargo/#overview , http://oshkoshdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/MTVR_4x4_ShtBed_SS_6-13-11.pdf , http://oshkoshdefense.com/variants/mk23-and-mk25-standard-cargo-truck/ , http://oshkoshdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/MTVR_StndCargo_SS_6-13-11.pdf , http://oshkoshdefense.com/variants/mk27-and-mk28-extended-cargo-truck/ , http://oshkoshdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/MTVR_ExtndCargo_SS_6-13-11.pdf , http://oshkoshdefense.com/variants/mk36-wrecker/#overview , http://oshkoshdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/MTVR_Wrecker_SS_9-5-2012.pdf , http://oshkoshdefense.com/variants/mk37-himars-resupply-vehicle/#overview , http://oshkoshdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/MTVR_HIMARS_SS_5-3-2013.pdf , http://oshkoshdefense.com/variants/9-ton-load-handling-system-6x6/ , http://oshkoshdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/MTVR_6x6LHS_SS_6-13-11.pdf , http://www.wenzlau.com/documents/oshkosh_mtvr_brochure.pdf , http://jedsite.info/transport-mike/mike/mtvr_series/z-document/Oshkosh_MTVR_brochure_07.pdf , and http://www.unusuallocomotion.com/medias/files/oshkosh-tactical-vehicle-replacement.pdf .

Also see posts #330 to #332 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page33 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page34 .

In these PDFs just referenced, the "Load-Handling" MTVR is 9.4 m long; it has a curb weight (unloaded) of 15,195 kg; and a fully loaded gross weight of 28,213 kg :







This is on the high end of things. Most MTVRs have a curb weight more in the 12,000 to 14,000 kg range. But granted these are cargo trucks, and their curb weight would be considerably more even if they were carrying just a camper box that is mostly empty space, as per the TerraLiner.


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[biotect]

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Here are pages from various MTVR pdfs that provide a good overview of the different models of this particular "medium sized" class of Oshkosh truck:







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[biotect]

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[biotect]

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Here are the last two pages of the PDF just above:


= ​



And another PDF brochure, about the MTVR's capabilities in general:









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[biotect]

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And here are various two-page MTVR brochures from the Oshkosh website:











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[biotect]

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Here are some good MTVR videos:



[video=youtube;ai_Ag5LCGnE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai_Ag5LCGnE&list=PL48moXxUyGZo4PH42rpOqHmr kEeIkfTHw&index=6 [/video] [video=youtube;Iw2GJh8D5-4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw2GJh8D5-4 [/video] [video=youtube;5lnS3rQTPAs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lnS3rQTPAs&index=11&list=PLHf4lVyYcHP92n2 KpHw71g7iBEjFotEFu[/video]
[video=youtube;YIMahDckPiA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIMahDckPiA&index=18&list=PLHf4lVyYcHP92n2 KpHw71g7iBEjFotEFu[/video] [video=youtube;-cMHfT1jYRU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cMHfT1jYRU&index=4&list=PLHf4lVyYcHP92n2KpHw71g7iB EjFotEFu[/video]




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2. The MTVR's TAK-4 Independent Suspension System


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In the second video posted above, a brief short clip of the undercarriage view suggests again what I argued earlier, with respect to the the L-ATV: that the "up-travel" of Oshkosh's TAK-4 independent suspension system seems to be severely restricted, in contrast to the "down" travel. The resolution in this video is not great, but it's good enough for our purposes.

First off, the natural resting state of TAK-4 as implemented in the MTVR seems to be a moderate V-shape, in which the centerline of the vehicle is actually a bit higher than the wheel centers:







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